If Mary was the mother of God...

[Tietjen]

That’s your answer to the 5 questions above ???

That coupled with the 25 other posts that I have posted on this topic. It might interest you to know that Truth can exist outside of the Bible too. Without getting too far off topic, it was the Catholic Church that compiled the canon which you now use as the only means to know and understand Truth. Paul wrote that Scripture AND Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15, 2 Tim 2:2) were to be used. But you choose to ignore Tradition and thus limit the amount of Truth you receive. That was never what was intended.

“2000 years of teachings” ?

Okay… you got me. 1,977 years of teachings give or take a few months and days.

So, if God were to ask you to prove yourself, you’re going to say… "You want me to explain why we are saying these 5 things which are not defined in your scripture?..Go tell my 2,000 year old church ".

First, God won’t have to ask me to prove myself because “my 2,000 year old Church” received His commission directly from Him in Matthew 28:18-20. Then He (God in the person of the Holy Spirit) allowed to be written within the pages of scripture that “my 2000 year old Church” was “the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” So… I suppose that I’m fairly well covered. What about you? How will you explain to God when he asks you why you rejected His Truth and why you persecuted His Church with silly questions concerning grandma Mary? What will you say to the Christ when He asks why you refused to show His mother respect and choose instead to deny her motherhood? Seems to me that it is you that will be in the hot seat.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Jesus did not call Mary servant, Mary called herself servant because of her humble personality and her willingness to submit to God’s will. You made a comment with malicious intent. You just proved how minimal researched you did on this matter.

 

[Tietjen]

You did not answer me. So, are these other women who according to Jesus are His mothers ALSO mothers of God ? Since it is JESUS Himself who calls them His mother.

For crying out loud… Take the passage within context and stop misrepresenting scripture! Are you now suggesting that the disciples all came from the womb of Mary! It’s rather obvious (if you’re honest) that the Christ was speaking of the family of believers. I hate when people try to twist Scripture to support some argument that is heretical. More bluntly (in case you missed it), no all the other women present were not the mothers of God. Shhesshh… It’s like pulling teeth. Next you’ll want proof that people back then used the restroom… by the way, that’s not in the Bible either (so maybe they didn’t huh?)

 

[MartinJordan]

You did not answer me. So, are these other women who according to Jesus are His mothers ALSO mothers of God ? Since it is JESUS Himself who calls them His mother.

I don’t know why you are insisting on this passage (actually I think I do but I digress). In Mark 3:31-35 Jesus had just returned home and his Mother and brothers had not seen him for a while.

However, the Elizabeth example, is a very good one. Whereupon the Holy Spirit fills Elizabeth and she knows what she’s saying when she greets Mary. Don’t dismiss it.

MJ

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

For crying out loud… Take the passage within context and stop misrepresenting scripture! Are you now suggesting that the disciples all came from the womb of Mary! It’s rather obvious (if you’re honest) that the Christ was speaking of the family of believers. I hate when people try to twist Scripture to support some argument that is heretical. More bluntly (in case you missed it), no all the other women present were not the mothers of God. Shhesshh… It’s like pulling teeth. Next you’ll want proof that people back then used the restroom… by the way, that’s not in the Bible either (so maybe they didn’t huh?)

Is Jesus lesser than the Holy Spirit?

So, if the Holy Spirit prompted Elizabeth to call Mary, the Mother of my Lord she is taken seriously, BUT… when Jesus says these women are His mother, He is not to be taken seriously and I am saying things out of context?

Are you even listening to what you’re saying ?

.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

That coupled with the 25 other posts that I have posted on this topic. It might interest you to know that Truth can exist outside of the Bible too. Without getting too far off topic, it was the Catholic Church that compiled the canon which you now use as the only means to know and understand Truth. Paul wrote that Scripture AND Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15, 2 Tim 2:2) were to be used. But you choose to ignore Tradition and thus limit the amount of Truth you receive. That was never what was intended.

Okay… you got me. 1,977 years of teachings give or take a few months and days.

First, God won’t have to ask me to prove myself because “my 2,000 year old Church” received His commission directly from Him in Matthew 28:18-20. Then He (God in the person of the Holy Spirit) allowed to be written within the pages of scripture that “my 2000 year old Church” was “the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” So… I suppose that I’m fairly well covered. What about you? How will you explain to God when he asks you why you rejected His Truth and why you persecuted His Church with silly questions concerning grandma Mary? What will you say to the Christ when He asks why you refused to show His mother respect and choose instead to deny her motherhood? Seems to me that it is you that will be in the hot seat.

That’s what you’d like to think .

 

[Jimmy_B]

Well, brother. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is God? If so, please show me the verse in the bible.

Here are a few biblical references of the Holy Spirit.

Genesis 3:8,9
When they heard the sound of the LORD God moving about in the garden at the breezy time of the day, the man and his wife hid themselves from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. the LORD God then called to the man and asked him, “Where are you?”

Exodus 3:1-4
Meanwhile Moses was tending the flock of his father-in-law Jethro, the priest of Midian. Leading the flock across the desert, he came to Horeb, the mountain of God. There an angel of the LORD appeared to him in fire flaming out of a bush. As he looked on, he was surprised to see that the bush, though on fire, was not consumed. So Moses decided, “I must go over to look at this remarkable sight, and see why the bush is not burned.” **When the LORD saw him coming over to look at it more closely, God called out to him from the bush, “Moses! Moses!” He answered, “Here I am.” **

Matthew 3:16-17
After Jesus was baptized, he came up from the water and behold, the heavens were opened (for him), and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove (and) coming upon him. And a voice came from the heavens, saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

Matthew 28:19
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

John 14:16,17
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.

John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

2 Corinthians 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the holy Spirit be with all of you.

Acts 2:32,33
God raised this Jesus; of this we are all witnesses. Exalted at the right hand of God, he received the promise of the holy Spirit from the Father and poured it forth, as you (both) see and hear.

Romans 8:27
And the one who searches hearts knows what is the intention of the Spirit, because it intercedes for the holy ones according to God’s will.

1 Corinthians 12:11
But one and the same Spirit produces all of these, distributing them individually to each person as he wishes.

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Isaiah 63:10
Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them.

Luke 10: 21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.”

1 Thessalonians 1:6
You became imitators of us and of the Lord; in spite of severe suffering, you welcomed the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit.

I hope this helps.

 

[moondweller]

Consider the following - reference at the end…

Every single action of Christ was the action of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, and this includes every action done by him in his human nature. For natures are sources of action-, but not doers. It is always the person who does them, and in his human nature there was but one single person, and that person was God. There was no human person, for that would have made him two people, each with his own distinct nature. His human nature was complete, but it was united to a divine person, not a human person.

For all intents and purposes this is a denial of the humanity of Christ.

In our reading of the Gospels, it is vital that we should never forget that every word uttered and every action performed by Christ is uttered and performed by God the Son.

Matt 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.”

Mark 13:32 “*But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father {alone.}”*So in light of these words uttered by Jesus, based on the statement above, are we to conclude that God the Son is a lesser God than God the Father?

The problem with Catholicism is that it became so paranoid of heresy concerning the deity of Christ, that it’s gone way to the other side of the pendulum swing. It’s all but turned its back on the glorious facts connected to Christ’s humanity. The miracle of the ages isn’t that Christ was Divine, but that He was truly Man (body soul and spirit) and walked on this earth as a MAN in complete obedience to the Father “to the point of death, even death on a cross.” (read Phil. 2:6-11).

The “second Man” (1 Cor. 15:47) did what the first man did not, and, as a Man, redeemed forever, by His blood, those who would personally believe in Him.

You don’t have to be afraid of the humanity of Christ, people. It’s a glorious thing. In fact, it’s through His humanity that we see the image of the invisible God (Col. 1:15).

 

[autdrew]

For all intents and purposes this is a denial of the humanity of Christ.Matt 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.”

Mark 13:32 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father {alone.}"So in light of these words uttered by Jesus, based on the statement above, are we to conclude that God the Son is a lesser God than God the Father?

The problem with Catholicism is that it became so paranoid of heresy concerning the deity of Christ, that it’s gone way to the other side of the pendulum swing. It’s all but turned its back on the glorious facts connected to Christ’s humanity. The miracle of the ages isn’t that Christ was Divine, but that He was truly Man (body soul and spirit) and walked on this earth as a MAN in complete obedience to the Father “to the point of death, even death on a cross.” (read Phil. 2:6-11).

The “second Man” (1 Cor. 15:47) did what the first man did not, and, as a Man, redeemed forever, by His blood, those who would personally believe in Him.

You don’t have to be afraid of the humanity of Christ, people. It’s a glorious thing. In fact, it’s through His humanity that we see the image of the invisible God (Col. 1:15).

I suppose it could also be said that the problem with Protestants is that they try so hard to dismiss the role of the Virgin Mary that they refuse to acknowledge the astounding gift that God gave her. No other person in history was chosen to carry the Son of God in her womb. No other person in history was chosen & trusted to raise that child to a man to save all of humanity. She was chosen from all people, a poor, humble teenager. What was it about her that made God choose her? What was it about her that made her accept? This is an event that had never happened before & she is special for that very reason. She was chosen by God. I cannot simply throw that out & say eh, she was a vessel, nothing more, nothing less. No honor due to her, we’ll trot her out at Christmas & talk a little about her but thats ALL she deserves.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

I suppose it could also be said that the problem with Protestants is that they try so hard to dismiss the role of the Virgin Mary that they refuse to acknowledge the astounding gift that God gave her. No other person in history was chosen to carry the Son of God in her womb. No other person in history was chosen & trusted to raise that child to a man to save all of humanity. She was chosen from all people, a poor, humble teenager. What was it about her that made God choose her? What was it about her that made her accept? This is an event that had never happened before & she is special for that very reason. She was chosen by God. I cannot simply throw that out & say eh, she was a vessel, nothing more, nothing less. No honor due to her, we’ll trot her out at Christmas & talk a little about her but thats ALL she deserves.

Honor is one thing, Over-elevation is another. Mary is honored. But not to the point of making her the Queen of heaven nor Mother of God.

 

[WetCatechumen]

Honor is one thing, Over-elevation is another. Mary is honored. But not to the point of making her the Queen of heaven nor Mother of God.

But her son is God, so she is the mother of God, and her son is the King of Heaven, so she is the Queen Mother of Heaven.

 

[MartinJordan]

Rumpel, how do you honor Mary?

MJ

 

[ufamtobie]

and God is your Father, does that not make Mary your GRAND MOTHER ???

Serious answers only please.

Rumpel,

Who was the Mother of Jesus? Mary

Who is Jesus Christ? The Son of God, Jesus Is also God the Son.

So yes Mary is the Mother of God the Son, who is Jesus Christ.

Did Jesus Have a mother? Yes! and Her Name is Mary.

Again, who was the Mother of Jesus who is also God? Mary, if you don’t believe this, then you don’t believe the Scriptures that Mary gave birth to Jesus who is God the son. Plain and simple the scripture state that Jesus who is God the Son who was born of a Virgin who is Mary, and this Mary is also your Mother. Amen

Ufamtobie

 

[Deconi]

**May I ask ‘Of what role did Mary play in that conception’ visavis in relation to God ?

• Please defend your recommendations/assumptions with biblical scripture.**

Wife? Cannot be. God never married her.
Un-married wife? Cannot be. God never ‘partnered’ her…that would be blasphemy.
Mother? Cannot be. God existed before she did.

**What was her role, or what did she contribute to that conception? Really…nothing. Just a bearer. ** The only reason why Elizabeth called her the ‘mother of my Lord’ was really just a relative term. Not that she was really the conceptual mother of the Lord because that would be impossible.

.

Emphasis

Good reasoning! You were a sperm in your father’s… uhm…‘pocket’ before he used your mother as a bearer (cocoon) and she had nothing to do with what you turned out to be! Your mother could have been paid for the job, but by ‘consenting’ prevented her being used like a prostitute! Still, she didn’t make you; your father did! Might as well go throw her in the rubbish.

See that word “blasphemy” you used up there? Be very, very careful of what you begin to imply about how God, apparently, uses human beings as empty shells or cocoons.

Your questioning may have enquirer validity, but be mindful of what you may inadvertently be ‘saying’ about what God did. There is no evidence, from Creation to you drawing breath, that He has ever used any person AGAINST their freedom of will; EVER!..nor that He used any person as a useless carcass for ‘carrying’ like a smuggler.

I mean, EVER!

If you wanna learn, fine! If you disagree with the answers from the Church, then reject them and continue ‘protesting.’ But if the horse is ordorous, it’s probably dead!

 

[Tietjen]

Is Jesus lesser than the Holy Spirit?

So, if the Holy Spirit prompted Elizabeth to call Mary, the Mother of my Lord she is taken seriously, BUT… when Jesus says these women are His mother, He is not to be taken seriously and I am saying things out of context?

Are you even listening to what you’re saying?

Yes. Are you listening to what I’m saying? Matthew 12:47-50 is the Christ teaching/telling us (and those present at the time) that those who do the will of the Father are his brothers, sisters and mother. In other words, the family of believers. In the case of Elizabeth, we have a different situation. The only people mentioned as being present our Mary and Elizabeth; both (Mary via the Angel Gabriel and Elizabeth through the Holy Spirit) know and understand that Mary is carrying the Christ child. The conversation is between the two women and Elizabeth is joyous to see the Mother of her Lord. You really can’t see the difference? Really? OR perhaps it too was a teaching moment and the Holy Spirit was (through Elizabeth) TELLING YOU THAT THIS IS THE MOTHER OF GOD!

 

[moondweller]

I suppose it could also be said that the problem with Protestants is that they try so hard to dismiss the role of the Virgin Mary that they refuse to acknowledge the astounding gift that God gave her. No other person in history was chosen to carry the Son of God in her womb. No other person in history was chosen & trusted to raise that child to a man to save all of humanity. She was chosen from all people, a poor, humble teenager. What was it about her that made God choose her? What was it about her that made her accept? This is an event that had never happened before & she is special for that very reason. She was chosen by God. I cannot simply throw that out & say eh, she was a vessel, nothing more, nothing less. No honor due to her, we’ll trot her out at Christmas & talk a little about her but thats ALL she deserves.

You mean we don’t speak of her alleged “immaculate conception,” her “sinlessness,” her “perpetual virginity,” her "assumption into heaven," her “coronation as Queen of heaven,” her “mediatorial powers?” Nor do the Scriptures, or any Divine revelation. It’s true we don’t speak of the excesses attributed to her by men. Because it doesn’t honor a person by saying things about them that are not true, even if those things are seemingly “good.”

But of the Man Christ Jesus the Scriptures tell ushil 2:6-11 "…who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, {and} being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."The Scriptures exalt a MAN, not woman. And it’s at His name every knee will bow…to the glory of God. This includes the woman.

 

[Tietjen]

That’s what you’d like to think .

LOL. Sir, that’s what is known. Allow me to amend that statement… That is what is known by those who aren’t trying to subvert Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

 

[smithm29]

This is an old argument, solved over 1500 years ago. If Mary is not Theotokos, Jesus is either not fully Theos or not fully Anthros (anthropos). If Mary did not give birth to Jesus, God and Man- exactly when did Jesus’ two natures meet up? Cana? The transfiguration? The presentation? Was the work of the Holy Spirit complete during the incarnation, or did it happen later? Jesus has two natures (human and divine) united in a single person, brought to earth by His Mother, the God-Bearer.

 

[Tomster]

You mean we don’t speak of her alleged “immaculate conception,” her “sinlessness,” her “perpetual virginity,” her "assumption into heaven," her “coronation as Queen of heaven,” her “mediatorial powers?” Nor do the Scriptures, or any Divine revelation. It’s true we don’t speak of the excesses attributed to her by men. Because it doesn’t honor a person by saying things about them that are not true, even if those things are seemingly “good.”

But of the Man Christ Jesus the Scriptures tell ushil 2:6-11 "…who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, {and} being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."The Scriptures exalt a MAN, not woman. And it’s at His name every knee will bow…to the glory of God. This includes the woman.

Don’t even go there, Moon.

We have already shown you your interpretations of Scriptures are bogus!

 

[Tietjen]

But of the Man Christ Jesus the Scriptures tell us:
Phil 2:6-11 “…who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, {and} being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
The Scriptures exalt a MAN, not woman. And it’s at His name every knee will bow…to the glory of God. This includes the woman.

So, when you read this passage (specifically, “but emptied Himself”), you understand it to mean that the Christ shed His divinity? He ceased to be God? I think I finally understand what you’re saying now. You’re saying that He voluntarily stopped being God in order that human blood might be sacrificed in so that salvation would come into the world. Right? This would truly make Mary the mother of man and not God. Of course! Eureka!.. (I’ve always wanted to say that in a post) It’s so clear now. God stopped being God for 33 years. Gottcha.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program…

I read the above passage and hear that the Christ despoiled (literal Greek verb) Himself of the glory due God. This is another example of what He did throughout his entire life. He came into the world, not as a king but as a servant. He humbled himself in every way, but HE DID NOT STOP BEING GOD. The passage goes on to say that He, “… being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.” “Likeness of men” and “in appearance as a man” screams to me that there was something more and He was NOT merely a man. He was, is, and always will be God. He never stopped being God. Not when he hung from the cross, not when He was instructing His disciples, not when He passed through the birth canal, and not when He was conceived. Yes, He humbled Himself and became a man but He did not stop being God when He did so. Satan recognized Him in the desert, Elizabeth recognized Him in the womb, John the Baptist recognized Him in the river Jordan, Peter (finally) recognized Him when he proclaimed that “You are the Christ” (Matthew 16:16).