if Muslims don't beleive in the same God as Christians, do Jews

[meedo]

Hi Meedo,

Good to see you.

Let me correct a mistake in your post: Christians **also **believe that Jesus is a perfect human. You seem to deliberately ignore this fact in order to present Christianity as a religion not different than any form of paganism.

Let me correct YOUR minsunderstanding about Islam and Judaism . If you believe that someone is FULL devine and FULL human in the same time then this is paganism!! If you believe that Jesus is God then its Paganism. i am sure its the same in Judaism .

I dont need another argument .

My question: If Jews and Muslims believe in the same Allah (actually Jews do not call Him with that Arabic name, the name of an Arabic false god!), why does your holy Quran ask Muslims to hate Jews more than Christians?

Names doesnt differ. You dont have to even utter the word Allah to be a muslim. You can replace it by the ''God of Moses and Abraham and Muhammed ‘’ and Allah isnt an arabic false God . Thats what you percieve him to be because of your lack of knowledge. Even if we assume that your false assumption is true!You dont become a pagan by uttering a wrong name for the correct diety!!!

The Quran doesnt ask me to hate any one!! The Quran states that the Jews who believed in Jesus prophethood are mroe understanding and sympathetic to Muslims than the Jews who refused his prophethood.

Besides, you are denying the Islamic faith that Jesus is a messenger while highlighting the similarity between Judaism and Islam on the basis of Jesus’ humanity.

I am not denying anything in the Islamic faith. what did i say disagree with Islam ? ! Jesus is a messenger and a Full human . If you have a problem of people bieng messengers of God and humans in the same time then thats your problem not mine!

salam

meedo

 

[inJESUS]

Let me correct YOUR minsunderstanding about Islam and Judaism . If you believe that someone is FULL devine and FULL human in the same time then this is paganism!! If you believe that Jesus is God then its Paganism. i am sure its the same in Judaism .

Salaam Meedo,

God did talk to prophets with human language. God did use human language, human attributes, human actions yet stayed God; he did not become a pagan deity nor did it belittle Him.

If God said He has hands, face, chin and that He mounts, descends and all the human actions yet stayed God, i don’t see why acting on them will make Him less than God.

 

[meedo]

Salaam Meedo,

God did talk to prophets with human language. God did use human language, human attributes, human actions yet stayed God; he did not become a pagan deity nor did it belittle Him.

If God said He has hands, face, chin and that He mounts, descends and all the human actions yet stayed God, i don’t see why acting on them will make Him less than God.

Because he didnt say so . Nor the shape that is assumed that was taken by God acted or declared himself God.

The understanding of Islam and Judaism is similar towards God and it explicity denies any possibility of God taking a human form. God gets angry in Judaism , just because humans get angry also that doesnt mean that now God is morphing into a human !! It means that God had gave us attributes '‘similar’ and not ‘‘identical’’ to what he has .

The purpose of this thread is to investigate weather the God of Muslims and Jews is teh same the God thats Christian worship.

It is VERY obvious by Both Judaism Judgement and Islamic Judgement that its not.

thanks

 

[scapularkid8]

The Muslims - ? I know they can supposedly trace themselves back to a son Abraham had with a slave girl - but so what? That’s what I say. When they speak of their god, it’s certainly NOT one I know.

I assume someone else much more knowlegable in history will give you a better response - this is just my opinion, for what it’s worth.

The Muslims worship the God of Abraham. (They trace this connection to Abraham and Hagar’s illegitimate son Ishmael) In the Bible and Torah it mentions that when Abraham was traveling, he set up altars/shrines to God. (Allah is just the Arabic word for God, it’s no different than Elohim,Hashem,ect.) One of these shrines is believed to be a large stone cube called the “kadish” (I think), which is located at Mecca. They believe God/Allah dwells in the kadish.

They do not, however, recognize that the Word Incarnate was Jesus of Nazareth. That is where the line is drawn with them. They believe He was merely a prophet which is more than the Jewish will say. I’m not sure on the current view of Jesus by the Jews, but He was known as a blasphemer at the time of His Crucifixion. Hope this helps.

 

[inJESUS]

Because he didnt say so . Nor the shape that is assumed that was taken by God acted or declared himself God.

The understanding of Islam and Judaism is similar towards God and it explicity denies any possibility of God taking a human form. God gets angry in Judaism , just because humans get angry also that doesnt mean that now God is morphing into a human !! It means that God had gave us attributes '‘similar’ and not ‘‘identical’’ to what he has .

The purpose of this thread is to investigate weather the God of Muslims and Jews is teh same the God thats Christian worship.

It is VERY obvious by Both Judaism Judgement and Islamic Judgement that its not.

thanks

as you know Meedo, there WERE/ARE Muslims who follow the theological madhab that says God’s attributes are literal. Anyway, this is beside the point. Am saying that if it did not belittle Him to use human actions and attributes for us to understand, and He did not ceize to be God, then i don’t see a problem why it would make Him less God if He worked on them.

You first premise is that He did not say so . In the Bible He did. the NT is the fulfillment of the OT, so the Jewish understanding of God, from a Christian point of view, is incomplete because they do not believe in Jesus’ revelation. i can accept that this is not revealed in Islam, but saying it is pagan goes against Islam as well because if God did not take human actions, the prophets wouldn’t have been able to hear Him. Likewise, it is said that Muhammad bargained with Allah over prayer number; in order for Muhammad to bargain with Allah, Allah must take a human approach without seezing to be Allah.

 

[scapularkid8]

The Muslims - ? I know they can supposedly trace themselves back to a son Abraham had with a slave girl - but so what? That’s what I say. When they speak of their god, it’s certainly NOT one I know.

I assume someone else much more knowlegable in history will give you a better response - this is just my opinion, for what it’s worth.

The Muslims worship the God of Abraham. (They trace this connection to Abraham and Hagar’s illegitimate son Ishmael) In the Bible and Torah it mentions that when Abraham was traveling, he set up altars/shrines to God. (Allah is just the Arabic word for God, it’s no different than Elohim,Hashem,ect.) One of these shrines is believed to be a large stone cube called the “kadish” (I think), which is located at Mecca. They believe God/Allah dwells in the kadish.

They do not, however, recognize that the Word Incarnate was Jesus of Nazareth. That is where the line is drawn with them. They believe He was merely a prophet which is more than the Jewish will say. I’m not sure on the current view of Jesus by the Jews, but He was known as a blasphemer at the time of His Crucifixion.

Muslims do not belong to the tribe of Israel and are therefore Gentiles. Yes, they trace their heritage to Ishmael, but the covenant and revelations were carried through Isaac and that was made very explicit by God in Genesis that He chose Isaac, not Ishmael. The covenant of salvation went all the way through the line of Adam, Noa, Shem, Isaac,ect. all the way to Joseph to the Incarnation of Jesus. The Muslims totally ignore the need of salvation covenants that slowly get bigger and bigger in the Bible to finally encompass the cosmos in Jesus. They do not…fully worship God in His desired way that giives Him the Glory He wants and demands, but neither do the Jews due to their choice to break the covenant set up by the Messiah.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God…And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling place among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth." (John 1:1-2,14)

"This is my beloved Son with whom I am well pleased; listen to Him." (Matthew 17:5)

 

[Valke2]

The Muslims worship the God of Abraham. (They trace this connection to Abraham and Hagar’s illegitimate son Ishmael) In the Bible and Torah it mentions that when Abraham was traveling, he set up altars/shrines to God. (Allah is just the Arabic word for God, it’s no different than Elohim,Hashem,ect.) One of these shrines is believed to be a large stone cube called the “kadish” (I think), which is located at Mecca. They believe God/Allah dwells in the kadish.

They do not, however, recognize that the Word Incarnate was Jesus of Nazareth. That is where the line is drawn with them. They believe He was merely a prophet which is more than the Jewish will say. I’m not sure on the current view of Jesus by the Jews, but He was known as a blasphemer at the time of His Crucifixion. Hope this helps.

Jews do not believe Ishmael was illegitimate. Which is probalby why Sarah wanted him sent away.

 

[scapularkid8]

Jews do not believe Ishmael was illegitimate. Which is probalby why Sarah wanted him sent away.

Are you Jewish? How do you know this? I think if a child and his mother are kicked out of a nomadic tribe to die than that would mean they are not wanted.

 

[Sixtus]

Islam DOES believe in the SAME God as Christianity. It is just the detail of the Trinity they do not believe in.Ok, to us, that is very important, crucial in fact. But they DO WORSHIP He of whom Our Lord spoke about, He whom Christ calls His [and our] Fatherhead of God, whom they call Allah, which means God

 

[Valke2]

Are you Jewish? How do you know this? I think if a child and his mother are kicked out of a nomadic tribe to die than that would mean they are not wanted.

Obviously, Sarah did not want Ishmael around. But I believe the reason was that she was protective of Isaac’s rights as 1st born. Had Ishmael been a legally illegitimate child, it may not have been that important an issue.

And yes, I’m Jewish.

 

[scapularkid8]

And yes, I’m Jewish.

Apologies, I was only saying that to make sure someone who was making a statement on behalf of the Jewish faith had to be Jewish if I could be validly corrected!

I have a question for you: what is your definition of “illegitimate”? I think that is where our disagreement is springing from. Once we have that cleared up, I think we can pretty much disolve this disagreement since we’re basically arguing over a definition.

 

[meedo]

Apologies, I was only saying that to make sure someone who was making a statement on behalf of the Jewish faith had to be Jewish if I could be validly corrected!

I have a question for you: what is your definition of “illegitimate”? I think that is where our disagreement is springing from. Once we have that cleared up, I think we can pretty much disolve this disagreement since we’re basically arguing over a definition.

I hope that also people who make statements on behalf of the islamic faith are only Muslims. Or else it wouldnt be valid.

an illigetamete son is a son who is a result of a forbidden relationship ilike in . Adultry , incest …etc.

Niether Ishmael was illigitemate !!! Nor Abraham was an adultrer !!! Nor does God promise to bless an illigetamete son and make him into a great nation!!!

it was usual that wives would give their servants as brides for their husband. It is not only in the case of Abraham . Half of the children of Jacob were sons of ex Maids for his orriginal wife. NEVER would you hear God differentiating between them .

The illigitimacy of Ishmael is a made up concept to emphasise the purity of blood line of Jesus. It is no where in Jewish Theology.

thanks

 

[Montalban]

Go find a muslim poster. I’m sure he’ll give you a quick answer.

You’re the one who made the claim!

 

[Montalban]

Christian worship Jesus,

And Jesus is God.

Muslims and Jews worship the God of Moses and Abraham. We both believe that Jesus is a human . Christians belive that Jesus is devine.(sic)

So Jesus is God.

I dont know why this thread is still going when the answer is that obvious.

It’s because you repeat “Christians worship Jesus” and leave out the “Who is God” bit. It’s the second time on the one thread!

 

[Valke2]

You’re the one who made the claim!

And I don’t care enough about it to find the post that I read it from.

 

[inJESUS]

Hey Valke2, since you joined us, did Hagar have the status of a wife?

 

[Valke2]

I have a question for you: what is your definition of “illegitimate”? I think that is where our disagreement is springing from. Once we have that cleared up, I think we can pretty much disolve this disagreement since we’re basically arguing over a definition.

In Judaism a jewish child born outside a marriage has all the rights as a jewish child born from a marriage. A jewish child born from a prohibited marriage, such as where a man marries a woman who is already married, are still jews but subject to certain restrictions, mostly having to do with who they can marry.

Even these laws would not have been applicable to Abraham since he was before the nation of Israel or the giving of Torah.

 

[Valke2]

Hey Valke2, since you joined us, did Hagar have the status of a wife?

It was customary for an infertile wife to provide her husband with a concubine so that they could have children. The concept of whether Hagar was a “wife” is unclear. Her status was obvioiusly lower than Sarah’s. She doesn’t stop being Sarah’s maidservant as we read that after she conceives that “[Hagar’s] mistress was lowered in her esteem.” We believe that the friction in the household was caused by Hagar arguing to be given the status of wife and looking down on Sarah for being infertile (which was considered a curse).

 

[Valke2]

There was also a belief at the time that a woman could become fertile by adopting a child. So if this was Sarah’s intent (and it is not clear if it was), then it would argue that Hagar was not Abraham’s wife, but a servant who’s purpose was to bear a child for Sarah to adopt, so that she could then bear her own children.

This would also explain Sarah’s insistance that Ishmael be banished. If he was “adopted” he would be even more of a threat to Isaac’s status.

Finally, just to be clear, a child born out of wedlock is not illegitimate under Jewish law.

 

[inJESUS]

thx Valke2