if Muslims don't beleive in the same God as Christians, do Jews

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Valke2,God promised Abraham and Sarah…it is the lack of faith that led Sarah (not God) to ask Abraham to have intercourse with Hagar…which means, from a Judeo-Christian point of view, it was lack of faith that resulted in the birth of Ishmael.
 
inJESUS said:
Valke2,God promised Abraham and Sarah…it is the lack of faith that led Sarah (not God) to ask Abraham to have intercourse with Hagar…which means, from a Judeo-Christian point of view, it was lack of faith that resulted in the birth of Ishmael.
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But God expressly tells Abraham, “Do whatever Sarah tells you”. So it is God’s own instructions that lead to the birth of Ishmael.
 
meedo said:
The Quran doesnt ask me to hate any one!! The Quran states that the Jews who believed in Jesus prophethood are mroe understanding and sympathetic to Muslims than the Jews who refused his prophethood.

salam

meedo
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I see that the Quran version you read deliberately excludes the following verse:

[Maidah 5:82] You will certainly find the Jews and the polytheists as the greatest enemies of the Muslims; and you will find the closest in friendship to the Muslims those who said, “We are Christians”; that is because scholars and monks are among them, and they are not proud.

More, your corrupted Quran brings pagans and Jews level in one verse on the basis of friendship whereas it brings Jews and Christians level in another verse in terms of making partners to your beloved Allah:

[Taubah 9:30] And the Jews said , “Uzair is the son of Allah”, and **the Christians **said “The Messiah is the son of Allah”; they utter this from their own mouths; they speak like the former disbelievers; may Allah kill them; where are they reverting!

[Taubah 9:31] They have taken their rabbis and their monks as Gods besides Allah and (also) Messiah the son of Maryam; and they were not commanded except to worship only One God - Allah; none is worthy of worship except Him; Purity is to Him from all that they ascribe as partners (to Him).

Since you claim that Jews and Muslims worship the same God unlike Christians, I have to admit that you Muslims also worship Uzair and Jewish Rabbis! 😃 More, the verses above debunk your assertion that Christians worship only Jesus. The writers of the Quran (those following Omar’s tradition and writing for Uthman) blame Jews and Christians for worshipping their religious leaders besides Allah. This means the Christians also worship the God of Abraham and Moses like Jews and Christians.
 
Valke2 said:
But God expressly tells Abraham, “Do whatever Sarah tells you”. So it is God’s own instructions that lead to the birth of Ishmael.
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that was long time after the Hagar appearence, not before as i remember.
 
Angelos said:
I see that the Quran version you read deliberately excludes the following verse:

[Maidah 5:82] You will certainly find the Jews and the polytheists as the greatest enemies of the Muslims; and you will find the closest in friendship to the Muslims those who said, “We are Christians”; that is because scholars and monks are among them, and they are not proud.

More, your corrupted Quran brings pagans and Jews level in one verse on the basis of friendship whereas it brings Jews and Christians level in another verse in terms of making partners to your beloved Allah:

[Taubah 9:30] And the Jews said , “Uzair is the son of Allah”, and **the Christians **said “The Messiah is the son of Allah”; they utter this from their own mouths; they speak like the former disbelievers; may Allah kill them; where are they reverting!

[Taubah 9:31] They have taken their rabbis and their monks as Gods besides Allah and (also) Messiah the son of Maryam; and they were not commanded except to worship only One God - Allah; none is worthy of worship except Him; Purity is to Him from all that they ascribe as partners (to Him).

Since you claim that Jews and Muslims worship the same God unlike Christians, I have to admit that you Muslims also worship Uzair and Jewish Rabbis! 😃 More, the verses above debunk your assertion that Christians worship only Jesus. The writers of the Quran (those following Omar’s tradition and writing for Uthman) blame Jews and Christians for worshipping their religious leaders besides Allah. This means the Christians also worship the God of Abraham and Moses like Jews and Christians.
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1- The Quran doesnt talk about the jews of all time nor the Christians of all time. The Quran talks about the jews who were themselves not believing people who rejetced many prophets including Jesus. Nor does the Quran talk about the Christians of all time. The Quran certainly doesnt talk about trinitarian christians !! and it doesnt say the word ‘‘Christians’’ it says the word ''Supporters ‘’ and people whom were meant by this word are believing practicing Jews who believed in jesus prophethood.

The verse urges Muslims not to take disbelieving people as their confidants and shun their muslim brothers. It doesnt mean to hate any one nor to generalise on any one. The Quran is full of examples of talking in general but meaning the specific, which ofcourse you cant get from the Quran alone. Thats where you go wrong.

When the Quran says that the Jews took Uzair as the son of God it doesnt mean all jews . same goes for christians. Oh and by the way ‘’ your translation is diliberately wrong!! the verse doesnt say that Allah will kill them, it says Allah will fight them. It doesnt mean killing it means condenation in the arabic language.

There is nothing called we worship Jesus AND the God of Moses.

Either you worship jesus ( if you understand him as the God of moses himself but in another form) or you worship two Gods.

IN BOTH CASES in judaism and Islam you are considered an Idolatrer. So saying that you worship Allah but worship Jesus besides him or thinking that Jesus was him makes you still an idolatrer.

Hope you get it .
 
meedo said:
1- The Quran doesnt talk about the jews of all time nor the Christians of all time. The Quran talks about the jews who were themselves not believing people who rejetced many prophets including Jesus. Nor does the Quran talk about the Christians of all time. The Quran certainly doesnt talk about trinitarian christians !! and it doesnt say the word ‘‘Christians’’ it says the word ''Supporters ‘’ and people whom were meant by this word are believing practicing Jews who believed in jesus prophethood.

The verse urges Muslims not to take disbelieving people as their confidants and shun their muslim brothers. It doesnt mean to hate any one nor to generalise on any one. The Quran is full of examples of talking in general but meaning the specific, which ofcourse you cant get from the Quran alone. Thats where you go wrong.

When the Quran says that the Jews took Uzair as the son of God it doesnt mean all jews . same goes for christians. Oh and by the way ‘’ your translation is diliberately wrong!! the verse doesnt say that Allah will kill them, it says Allah will fight them. It doesnt mean killing it means condenation in the arabic language.

There is nothing called we worship Jesus AND the God of Moses.

Either you worship jesus ( if you understand him as the God of moses himself but in another form) or you worship two Gods.

IN BOTH CASES in judaism and Islam you are considered an Idolatrer. So saying that you worship Allah but worship Jesus besides him or thinking that Jesus was him makes you still an idolatrer.

Hope you get it .
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I am really disappointed to see you lie about what your book says! :eek: Here is the arabic version of the verse I quoted to prove that your blessed Quran accuses **all **Jews of making partners to your Allah:

“ve kaaletilyahuduuzeyrunibnullah ve kaaletinnasarelmesiyhubnullah”.

It is clear that the writers of the Quran blamed all Jews and Christians for idolatry! In none of the Quran versions or translations can I find the word “some of them”! If you have a Quran that says “some Jews said…some Christians said…” please bring it here so that I can quit criticizing your Scripture in this respect. Thus, your argument that the Quran does not talk about all Christians seems fallacious! In the verses I quoted the Quran does not have the specifying word “minhum” in Arabic. If you claim the opposite, please show me some verses from the Quran that supports your view! Nevertheless, I agree with you that the Quran could not talk about the Christians of all times and places since it was written in the 7th century 😃 It is good to see you realistic for a minute.

More, this translation is not mine! 😃 I got it from an Islamic website online! I do not know whether the following sentence means “May Allah kill them” in Arabic:

“kaatelehumullahu enna yu’fekun” If it is wrong, sorry! I must go and warn the Islamic site about this mistake.

It is not me who says Jews and Christians are idolaters, but your very scripture! My advice to you: before posting your messages please remember to read the Quran lest your arguments be baseless.

The mistakes and misunderstandings of the writers of your Quran will never make your assertions seem true. This is because the Quran presents Mohammed’s personal (and false!) comments on what and how Christians believe rather than simply saying what and how Christians believe!

Finally, you confess with your own mouth that your scripture does not want Muslims to befriend unbelievers! According to your interpretation, the Quran calls Jews unbelievers with a weird generalization since that verse too lacks a word to narrow the scope of the commandment. More to the point, the verse I quoted is not about friendship at all 😃 It simply calls Jews Muslims’ enemies like pagans! (all pagans or some infidel pagans? 😛 ) There is a great deal of difference between friendship and enmity! These are absolutely distinct notions.

Calm down and remember that we are only discussing certain things! We are not here to hate or kill each other. Peace to you!
 
Peace be with you Meedo,
I would like to say you have some guts coming onto a predominantly Christian forum to defend what you believe to be the truth: I could never do that!
meedo said:
I hope that also people who make statements on behalf of the islamic faith are only Muslims. Or else it wouldnt be valid.
. . .
The illigitimacy of Ishmael is a made up concept to emphasise the purity of blood line of Jesus. It is no where in Jewish Theology.

thanks
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  1. I was not stating anything that was outside common knowledge of Islam. I learned all of that from a History Channel informational spot on Islam in History Class, so if you are troubled by the things said there: take it up with them, not me.
2.You just stated that Ishmael was legitimate (Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham) and two sentences later you then state that Jewish theology dosen’t support that? Proove it! I’m not going to believe you just because you said that. That sounds like a reach to me…
 
scapularkid8 said:
Peace be with you Meedo,
I would like to say you have some guts coming onto a predominantly Christian forum to defend what you believe to be the truth: I could never do that!
  1. I was not stating anything that was outside common knowledge of Islam. I learned all of that from a History Channel informational spot on Islam in History Class, so if you are troubled by the things said there: take it up with them, not me.
2.You just stated that Ishmael was legitimate (Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham) and two sentences later you then state that Jewish theology dosen’t support that? Proove it! I’m not going to believe you just because you said that. That sounds like a reach to me…
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being born out of wedlock does not make a Jew illegitmate. The status of Hagar (wife, maidservant or wife/maidservant) remains fuzzy. The smart money seems to be on maidservant. If she was a wife, it is doubtful that she would have been banished on Sarah’s word. Clearly, Ishmael seems to have been treated as a son by Abraham until then.
 
Salaam Angelos;
Angelos said:
I am really disappointed to see you lie about what your book says! :eek: Here is the arabic version of the verse I quoted to prove that your blessed Quran accuses **all **Jews of making partners to your Allah:

“ve kaaletilyahuduuzeyrunibnullah ve kaaletinnasarelmesiyhubnullah”.

It is clear that the writers of the Qur’an blamed all Jews and Christians for idolatry! In none of the Qur’an versions or translations can I find the word “some of them”! If you have a Qur’an that says “some Jews said…some Christians said…” please bring it here so that I can quit criticizing your Scripture in this respect.
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Angelos;
kaaleti is used for the feminine (i.e. kaaleti my wife, meaning my wife said. in Arabic, the verb is before the noun and in Arabic we have feminine verbs and masculine verbs).
el yahudu (the Jews) is masculine along with nasare (Christians)
Question: why is a feminine verb used for masculine nouns?
Answer: because in Arabic this is so when you want to speak about a “part” of something which is masculine. “part” in Arabic is “Fi’atun” and it is feminine, therefore a feminine verb is used.
“fi’atun” is not written, but when a feminine verb is used before a masculine noun, it is understood that it is being talked about a “part of” and not the whole.

Salaam.
Joseph.
 
Joseph_Alison said:
Salaam Angelos;
Angelos;
kaaleti is used for the feminine (i.e. kaaleti my wife, meaning my wife said. in Arabic, the verb is before the noun and in Arabic we have feminine verbs and masculine verbs).
el yahudu (the Jews) is masculine along with nasare (Christians)
Question: why is a feminine verb used for masculine nouns?
Answer: because in Arabic this is so when you want to speak about a “part” of something which is masculine. “part” in Arabic is “Fi’atun” and it is feminine, therefore a feminine verb is used.
“fi’atun” is not written, but when a feminine verb is used before a masculine noun, it is understood that it is being talked about a “part of” and not the whole.

Salaam.
Joseph.
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Hi Joseph,

Thanks for this brief lecture on the gendered verb forms in Arabic. However, I cannot thank you for another example of digression! I infer that you teach me Arabic grammar since you expect me to blame the Quran for slandering Jews about deifying Uzair. I am not planning to bring that up as an example for the historical mistakes in the Islamic scripture. What I aimed to show was that some verses in the Quran brought Christians and Jews level on the basis of their alleged blasphemy. Since the Quran regards no specific group of the Islamic community as idolaters, I suppose it is possible to claim that the Quran denies having the same tenets as Jews as well as Christians. 🙂

As for your example, it displays the conjugation of a feminine verb in singular form whereas the verb in the verse I quoted is plural. Therefore, I do not know how the use of the a feminine verb could support your view. Forgive me if the same language rule (feminine verbs used with masculine nouns to indicate a part of a whole) is applied to nouns and verbs in plural form. 😉

If your claim is true, the Quran will definitely face the accusation that the writers of the Quran did not know the fundamental tenets of Christianity. The doctrine that Jesus is the Son of God is the foundation of Christianity. It is what makes us Christians! If the verse in question means “some Christians called Jesus the Son of God”, this is but a denial of history or the excellent evidence for ignorance. Moreover, the verb in verse 31 does not have a marker that distinguishes some Christians and Jews from all. Thus, the verse apparently condemns **all **Jews and Christians to **idolatry! **

My final objection: even if I consider your interpretation correct and accept that the Quran talks about some of the Christian and Jewish groups rather than all, it won’t be easy to infer that the Quran divided the people of the Book into sects. This will lead to the question whether that “some” refers to the majority or minority. Why would you expect the Quran to talk of minor groups as the indicator of the major belief?

Salaam,

Angelos
 
scapularkid8 said:
Peace be with you Meedo,
I would like to say you have some guts coming onto a predominantly Christian forum to defend what you believe to be the truth: I could never do that!
  1. I was not stating anything that was outside common knowledge of Islam. I learned all of that from a History Channel informational spot on Islam in History Class, so if you are troubled by the things said there: take it up with them, not me.
2.You just stated that Ishmael was legitimate (Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham) and two sentences later you then state that Jewish theology dosen’t support that? Proove it! I’m not going to believe you just because you said that. That sounds like a reach to me…
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My proof is that by your logic , half of the children of Israel will be Illigetamete!!! Jacob’s wife also had servants and she gave them to jacob for marriage. he married them and had many sons of them.

So nearly half or more of the people of Israel are born illigetametly ??! this is just crazy!!!

You are the one who says Ismael is illigetamte YOU prove it!! I have just given you a proof of a similar case with jacob and his sons!!
 
Angelos said:
I am really disappointed to see you lie about what your book says! :eek: Here is the arabic version of the verse I quoted to prove that your blessed Quran accuses **all **Jews of making partners to your Allah:

“ve kaaletilyahuduuzeyrunibnullah ve kaaletinnasarelmesiyhubnullah”.

It is clear that the writers of the Quran blamed all Jews and Christians for idolatry! In none of the Quran versions or translations can I find the word “some of them”! If you have a Quran that says “some Jews said…some Christians said…” please bring it here so that I can quit criticizing your Scripture in this respect. Thus, your argument that the Quran does not talk about all Christians seems fallacious! In the verses I quoted the Quran does not have the specifying word “minhum” in Arabic. If you claim the opposite, please show me some verses from the Quran that supports your view! Nevertheless, I agree with you that the Quran could not talk about the Christians of all times and places since it was written in the 7th century 😃 It is good to see you realistic for a minute.

More, this translation is not mine! 😃 I got it from an Islamic website online! I do not know whether the following sentence means “May Allah kill them” in Arabic:

“kaatelehumullahu enna yu’fekun” If it is wrong, sorry! I must go and warn the Islamic site about this mistake.

It is not me who says Jews and Christians are idolaters, but your very scripture! My advice to you: before posting your messages please remember to read the Quran lest your arguments be baseless.

The mistakes and misunderstandings of the writers of your Quran will never make your assertions seem true. This is because the Quran presents Mohammed’s personal (and false!) comments on what and how Christians believe rather than simply saying what and how Christians believe!

Finally, you confess with your own mouth that your scripture does not want Muslims to befriend unbelievers! According to your interpretation, the Quran calls Jews unbelievers with a weird generalization since that verse too lacks a word to narrow the scope of the commandment. More to the point, the verse I quoted is not about friendship at all 😃 It simply calls Jews Muslims’ enemies like pagans! (all pagans or some infidel pagans? 😛 ) There is a great deal of difference between friendship and enmity! These are absolutely distinct notions.

Calm down and remember that we are only discussing certain things! We are not here to hate or kill each other. Peace to you!
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All of the above proves that you were either never a muslim or a nominal muslim at best .

Any Muslim ‘‘Kid’’ knows that the Quran doesnt support YOUR interpretation which you want to enforce so that you use it as a proof of how wrong islam is !! You can ONLY decieve your fellow Christians on what Muslims believe !!

Go ahead angelos. You are a failed missionary even befroe you start!!!
 
Joseph_Alison said:
Salaam Angelos;
Angelos;
kaaleti is used for the feminine (i.e. kaaleti my wife, meaning my wife said. in Arabic, the verb is before the noun and in Arabic we have feminine verbs and masculine verbs).
el yahudu (the Jews) is masculine along with nasare (Christians)
Question: why is a feminine verb used for masculine nouns?
Answer: because in Arabic this is so when you want to speak about a “part” of something which is masculine. “part” in Arabic is “Fi’atun” and it is feminine, therefore a feminine verb is used.
“fi’atun” is not written, but when a feminine verb is used before a masculine noun, it is understood that it is being talked about a “part of” and not the whole.

Salaam.
Joseph.
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i never heard that some Jews believed Ezra to be God’s son but in case this is true, the Jews have never held Ezra to be “the son of God” in any exclusive sense like the Christians consider Jesus to be the unique divine son of God. The absolute parallelity of the statements in Arabic means that this is meant in a similarly exclusive sense, when we know that ALL Christians considered Jesus Son of God. Those who did not believe Jesus is the Son of God are CANNOT be called Christians as per the Christian statement of creed that was known before Muhammad was even born. So to say “some Christians” believed Jesus to be the Son of God is wrong.
 
inJESUS said:
i never heard that some Jews believed Ezra to be God’s son but in case this is true, the Jews have never held Ezra to be “the son of God” in any exclusive sense like the Christians consider Jesus to be the unique divine son of God. The absolute parallelity of the statements in Arabic means that this is meant in a similarly exclusive sense, when we know that ALL Christians considered Jesus Son of God. Those who did not believe Jesus is the Son of God are CANNOT be called Christians as per the Christian statement of creed that was known before Muhammad was even born. So to say “some Christians” believed Jesus to be the Son of God is wrong.
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“son of God” was a term jews traditionally used (a few thousand years ago) to refer to particularly righteous individuals. It did not have anything like the meaning that Christians ascribe to it. It was a title that would not have caused a Jew to think that the person was God in the flesh.
 
Valke2 said:
“son of God” was a term jews traditionally used (a few thousand years ago) to refer to particularly righteous individuals. It did not have anything like the meaning that Christians ascribe to it. It was a title that would not have caused a Jew to think that the person was God in the flesh.
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which proves that Muhammad was wrong by putting Jews and Christians on the same level because Christians have a specific meaning for Son of God as revealed by Jesus.

After thousands of years of Judeo-Christian use of “son of God”, Muhammad came and declared it wrong, thinking that to be called “son of God” means God had a wife! ridiculous to say the least.it seems he did not have the chance to quote a rabbi explaing its meaning in the same way the rabbi interpreted genesis 😉
 
inJESUS said:
which proves that Muhammad was wrong by putting Jews and Christians on the same level because Christians have a specific meaning for Son of God as revealed by Jesus.

After thousands of years of Judeo-Christian use of “son of God”, Muhammad came and declared it wrong, thinking that to be called “son of God” means God had a wife! ridiculous to say the least.it seems he did not have the chance to quote a rabbi explaing its meaning in the same way the rabbi interpreted genesis 😉
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yes. the meanings would be different. Especially at the time of Muhammad.
 
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