B
BrianH
Guest
I would say that a black non-Catholic church having a picture of a black Mary in their church is quite respectful.
BH
BH
- Status
E
Eden
Guest
It is very interesting when you look at something that I know you don’t believe in - apparitions of the Blessed Virgin. Now, I know that some believe they are a figment of one’s imagination or on the worst end - that they are a deception of the devil. The problem with the idea that the devil deceives Catholics by presenting himself as Mary is that the apparitions always result in deeper devotions to Christ. Hardly the goal of the devil. That being said, the dragon can persecute someone without them physically being persecuted or physically in the presence of the dragon. I belive the devil is in a war with the Blessed Virgin. We see it with the disrespect and denigration of the Virgin by some posters here. They learn this in their belief-systems which teach error about His mother. Perhaps someone is more familiar with Revelation and can comment, but when I look at that passage I immediately think of the words of the Blessed Mother at Fatima: “She (the Blessed Virgin Mary) told me that the devil is in the mood for engaging in a decisive battle against the Virgin. And a decisive battle is the final battle where one side will be victorious and the other side will suffer defeat. Also from now on we must choose sides. Either we are for God or we are for the devil. There is no other possibility.”And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. And being with child, she cried travailing in birch, and was in pain to be delivered. And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon … and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. And she brought forth a man child, who war to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that there they should feed her a thousand two hundred sixty days… And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman, who brought forth the man child. And there were given to the woman two wings of a great eagle, thee she might fly into the desert unto her place, where she is nourished for a time and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent … And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed…[14](javascript:OpenNote(213,29,14)
… Sister Lucy of Fatima speaking
to Father Fuentes,
December 26, 1957
E
Eden
Guest
I am relieved to learn that Fredericks motives were not to disrespect minorities. I still don’t understand why he preceded his link with “no disrespect”. He must have been expecting some “disrespect” to be understood by preceding with such a disclaimer. If he would like to elaborate on the motives, I’m sure I’m not the only one wondering about it and would be interested in knowing what this was all about.
In any event, the fact that you sent him a PM about me leads me to believe that you are not interested in interreligious dialogue, just controversy or trouble. Can you please explain what you are hoping to accomplish with your only posts to me on this thread?
B
BrianH
Guest
Did you read the two quotes? Because he wanted to show you guys that he was arguing against you respectfully and even said they had a picture in his church.
Try reading
To defend my friend, mentor, and father-in-law from this assualt on his character and his good name.
BH
A
Alfie
Guest
You are taking glory and honor away from Jesus by paying adoration to Mary. If that isn’t deception than I don’t know what is. For any Protestant convert on this forum this should be a wake up call. Apparations are a tool of Satan. This is how Satan is going to use them to unite all of the religions of the world under one roof. There have been reports of Marian appariations in the Islamic countries. This will bring the Moslems into the Catholic church because they also have a respect for Mary. Don’t kid yourself…you are deceived.
E
Eden
Guest
O.K. So, now that you have defended Fredericks against what you perceive as an assault on him by me, I would hope that you will allow the discussion on Mary to continue on this thread.
E
Eden
Guest
Perhaps we should start a new thread about Apparitions? I think the topic is deserving of in-depth discussion, especially your accusations that satan presents himself as Mary to bring people to Christ.
M
Michael_Francis
Guest
Eden clearly did not understand the Black Madonna post and has apologized and explained. That SHOULD be the end of it…among Christians.
There is far too much space being wasted in personal remarks back and forth and they WILL cease right now, or the people in question will NOT like the results.
Stick to the facts, or expect threads to be closed and “vacations” to be handed out.
There is far too much space being wasted in personal remarks back and forth and they WILL cease right now, or the people in question will NOT like the results.
Stick to the facts, or expect threads to be closed and “vacations” to be handed out.
M
mumof5
Guest
Amen! Jesus only ever said to pray to the Father and that is what he modelled. I have cleansed my home of rosaries. Just realised I still have some medals around…eeek. Must do something with them.
E
Eden
Guest
Please join us on the new thread!
S
Subrosa
Guest
This is the jist of the problem. Catholics are not “Bible Only Christians” as most protestants are.
For Catholics, Sacred Tradition comes first. The doctrines on Mary are such Traditions. In particular, the Marian Tradition was begun by John the Apostle.
The Bible is actually understood to be Apostolic Tradition, written down.
The Sacred Traditions are carried from apostolic teachings. The Marian Traditions are not biblical, but are apostolic. Virtually all other Traditions are in some way biblical.
My two cents,
Subrosa
A
Alfie
Guest
Thank you for your honesty! Your admission that tradition for Catholics is pre-eminant over the Bible. The Bible is a mere appendage to the Catholic tradition.
.But why would God separate tradition from the Bible? Why wasn’t tradition and the Bible written down in one unified body of knowledge? If it is so important to salvation and preventing people from going to hell. What would be the point of having a separate oral tradition and the Bible? Why did the Protestant reformers reject tradition if it was so in their faces? There was no reason for men like Luther to reject it.Luther studied and studied both scripture and tradition.
E
Eden
Guest
What is the point of making these kinds of comments if you won’t back them up? I’ll just mention one more time that I have started a thread on apparitions because you may not know where it is. It’s in the Apologetics forum.
A
Anton82
Guest
Personally, because I would like to learn more about the Catholic Church!
R.E. was always a favourite subject of mine and I think that I know more than the average person about the Catholic faith but there is always new things to discover. I don’t have any intention to convert from Orthodoxy, but I think that knowing about what we each believe is a good basis for future discussion.
I like the forums and this is a site I visit a couple of times a day, but to be honest, I don’t particularly like to get involved in arguements, so I tend to read more than post!
Anton
R.E. was always a favourite subject of mine and I think that I know more than the average person about the Catholic faith but there is always new things to discover. I don’t have any intention to convert from Orthodoxy, but I think that knowing about what we each believe is a good basis for future discussion.
I like the forums and this is a site I visit a couple of times a day, but to be honest, I don’t particularly like to get involved in arguements, so I tend to read more than post!
Anton
A
AquinasXVI
Guest
When your common sense comes into gear you will realize that the bible didn’t drop out of the sky. Neither did Jesus say “WRITE A BOOK, AND THAT WILL BE THE SOLE AUTHORITY.”
Luther vandalized the bible…by taking away several books and adding the word ALONE right beside the word FAITH.
Believe it or not, your denomination has its own traditions…you can’t help it…you gather at the same place, listen to the same pastor, sing the same songs. That my brother is tradition, invented by men about 500 years ago.
in XT.
S
Studens
Guest
I don’t want to get too off-topic from the bulk of this thread, but I’d like to respond to the initial question.
Thank you, newby, for welcoming me! I am here simply because I am interested in learning about your faith — not because I am considering conversion.
I have a great deal of love for the Catholic Church. The driving force behind that love is my love for my own ancestors and my love for the past — I am a student of medieval history. But I also love the Catholic Church today as a force for good through which thousands and even millions are brought closer to Christ.
I also believe that overall, very few people on Earth read the Bible so well as Catholic clergy and theologians read it. Two millenia of faithful study makes a big difference. Because the Bible is very important to all Christians, I think it would benefit us all to at least understand fully how it is read by the Catholic Church before we decide on some other interpretation — it’s never a good idea to interpret God’s word rashly.
S
Subrosa
Guest
I’m sorry. I didn’t make myself clear. The Bible and Sacred Tradition are co-equal. Sacred Tradition is that which is carried from the Apostles. They are as much the Word of God as anything in the Bible because they were instituted by Christ.
If you read John 20:30 and John 21:24 you will see that not everything was written down in the Bible. Tradition carries through the teachings of Christ to the present day. Paul mentions these Traditions in 2 Thess 2:15. This verse clearly states that Traditions were taught both orally and in writing.
There was no need for it. Tradition was a complete part of the faith, as it remains today.
These Traditions are physical actions that carry on the faith. Do you go to church on Sunday? You are practicing a Tradition. Do you celebrate Christmas? You are practicing a Tradition. By continuing these Traditions, you are carrying the faith and passing it on to others, such as your children.
They didn’t. They replaced them with thier own traditions, such as sola scriptura. People such as Martin Luther did that all on thier own. And by what authority? It is kind of like going onto a cafeteria and picking what you like and leaving what you don’t.
Do you believe that the bread and wine at mass become the body and blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ? Martin Luther did and to this day all Lutheran churches practice this as a tenet of thier faith. They reject others, such as papal authority. Again, cafeteria christians.
iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/wittenberg-boc.html
You need to keep in mind that the Catholic church of the middle ages was embroiled in political turmoil. Yes, the church had corruptions and Martin Luther was reacting to them. The Catholic Church of today does not resemble the church of the past. It seeks to bring people to Jesus and through Him, His Father. All of the Traditions are designed to do just that through the work of the Holy Spirit, for it is the Holy Spirit that lives and exists in each of them.
Just think, what would Christianity be without church on Sunday, Christmas, Lent or Easter? The life of the church is contained in the Eucharist. Mary is the supreme example of christian commitment, demonstrated by her words, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” (Luke 1:38) She sings the words, “…from now on all ages will call me blessed.” (Luke 1:48b) Catholics have been calling her blessed for two thousand years. You reject her outright. Where does that leave you?
Please ponder these words for even you have traditions that you follow in the practice of your faith. But, are they the ones handed down from the apostles, instituted by Christ? Or are they the traditions of misguided men, the kind that Jesus condemns so often?
God bless you, Alfie.
Subrosa
S
Subrosa
Guest
Bimp!!! 
Oops! I mean
Bump!!!
Oops! I mean
Bump!!!
S
SemperJase
Guest
You have just misrepresented what Subrosa said:
God did not seperate sacred tradition from the bible. The Bible is part of Sacred Tradition.
Why weren’t tradition and the Bible written down entirely together? Good question. One thing we do know is that the Bible was not meant to be an comprehensive book about Christianity. The people who assembled it did knew that John tells us he did not record everything Jesus did. They also knew that they did not have all Paul’s writings; 1 Corinthians was not Paul’s first letter to the church at Corinth.
If the bible was intended to be comprehensive, why was everything not included?
A
Alfie
Guest
From what I can make out of the Catholic religion is that a lot of its beliefs are based on Judism and the old covenant rather than the new covenant. Judism was a system that was based on works. God gave the Jews ten commandments and the Jews added more laws and regulations to the commandements. They were caught up in legalism rather than true worship of God. The most knowledgeble Jews were the rabbis and they wanted Jesus killed even though they had an appearance of Godliness. The Jewish religious leaders had the word of God (old testament) that predicted Jesus and his coming and yet because of their wickness and self-righteousness they hated Jesus. I have stated over and over again on this forum that my loyalty is to Jesus and Israel not man-made doctrine and religion. To me Catholism is like counterfit money. It looks like the real thing.
- Status