If Our Lady wasn't perpetually virgin

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Sure - I’ll tackle that one!
As soon as you tell me where the word "Trinity" is found anywhere in scripture.
Show me where the word "Bible" is found, too.

Can you show me ONE verse that says Jesus didn’t marry Mary Magdalen? Or where Jesus stubbed his toe?
**Of course **not! With you’re feeble reasoning you fail to understand that not everything you and I believe in is spelled out that way in scripture.

Can you show me one, single, solitary verse that says Mary gave birth to another child?
No Protestant has ever been able to show me one. Can YOU?

While you’re at it - answer my original question - you know, the one you keep dodging:
CAN you post the Scripture verses in favor of factions (denominations)?

PS - I didn’t resort to name-calling. I said you were being smug and spiritually prideful.
"By their fruits, you shall know them" (Matt. 7:16, 20)
Name-calling would have been something like "ignoramus" or a “typical baiting blow-hard” . Gee, I would never resort to* THAT* . . .😉
**Hahahahahahahahahaha! ** :slapfight:
 
**Originally Posted by elvisman **
Sure - I’ll tackle that one!
As soon as you tell me where the word “Trinity” is found anywhere in scripture.
Show me where the word “Bible” is found, too.
Can you show me ONE verse that says Jesus didn’t marry Mary Magdalen?
You mean He DID!!! Or where Jesus stubbed his toe? :confused:
Of course not!
With you’re feeble reasoning you fail to understand that not everything you and I believe in is spelled out that way in scripture. I DO???
Can you show me one, single, solitary verse that says Mary gave birth to another child? No Protestant has ever been able to show me one. Can YOU?
It’s never been an issue for me - is it for you!?!
While you’re at it - answer my original question - you know, the one you keep dodging:
CAN you post the Scripture verses in favor of factions (denominations)?
Well…no…as you’ve pointed out above…“not everything you and I believe in is spelled out that way in scripture”. 🍿
 
As I already asked the equally smug and spiritually prideful Leeann:

What part of "But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that ARE COMING", do you NOT understand?

This includes any and ALL truth revealed to the Church. If it doesn’t - Jesus is a liar.
Smug, prideful, calling Jesus a liar…does that mean I scored a hat trick?
 
You need the Church to interpret Simeon’s prophecy as well. The Church believed in the meaning of this prophecy before it was recorded in the scriptures. So Scripture must be interpreted in light of Sacred Tradition. **If you accept the church’s interpretation with regard to Jesus, then you must also accept her interpretation with regard to Mary. **Of course, you pick and choose what you wish to believe, which is why Protestantism is a divided house - a crumbling cookie. Christians certainly don’t need a competent-soul like Leeann to interpret the scriptures for them.

PAX :sleep:
It’s entirely possible to independently arrive at the same conclusion. Alexander Graham Bell and Elisha Gray independently invented the telephone, various roving tribes independently invented jerky and various forms of stew, and so on. It’s possible to accept one interpretation as valid and reject the rest of them.

What’s that saying about the blind squirrel and the nut?
 
It’s entirely possible to independently arrive at the same conclusion. Alexander Graham Bell and Elisha Gray independently invented the telephone, various roving tribes independently invented jerky and various forms of stew, and so on. It’s possible to accept one interpretation as valid and reject the rest of them.

What’s that saying about the blind squirrel and the nut?
But, only the Holy Spirit leads to unity. The demon divides. That alone should be very concerning.
 
Smug, prideful, calling Jesus a liar…does that mean I scored a hat trick?
My…I believe it does!!!

Although "technically" you didn’t call Jesus a liar as such…only in the context that the poster indicated as being “THE church”. Just wanted to clear that up!

But yes indeed…you seemingly have scored a hat trick!!!
 
But, only the Holy Spirit leads to unity. The demon divides. That alone should be very concerning.
At the same time, who’s to say that every canonized saint that has ever written was completely influenced by the Holy Spirit?
 
It’s entirely possible to independently arrive at the same conclusion. Alexander Graham Bell and Elisha Gray independently invented the telephone, various roving tribes independently invented jerky and various forms of stew, and so on. It’s possible to accept one interpretation as valid and reject the rest of them.

What’s that saying about the blind squirrel and the nut?
Jesus established his Church only on Peter to whom were given the keys. I don’t recall reading Martin Luther’s name anywhere in the gospels. Further, Jesus established one universal Catholic Church. He didn’t establish various roving churches to independently form their own conflicting doctrines. Luther created that dilemma in the 16th century. Fifteen hundred years earlier Jesus promised that he would send the Paraclete to guide his Church in all truth until the end of the age, and that he would not leave his bride spiritually orphaned; so this squirrel ain’t blind.

There’s an annonymous saying:

“A bad analogy is like a misbegotten simile.”

PAX :rotfl:
 
**Originally Posted by elvisman **
Sure - I’ll tackle that one!
As soon as you tell me where the word “Trinity” is found anywhere in scripture.
Show me where the word “Bible” is found, too.

Can you show me ONE verse that says Jesus didn’t marry Mary Magdalen?
You mean He DID!!! Or where Jesus stubbed his toe?
Of course not!
With you’re feeble reasoning you fail to understand that not everything you and I believe in is spelled out that way in scripture. I DO???
Can you show me one, single, solitary verse that says Mary gave birth to another child? No Protestant has ever been able to show me one. Can YOU?
It’s never been an issue for me - is it for you!?!

While you’re at it - answer my original question - you know, the one you keep dodging:
CAN you post the Scripture verses in favor of factions (denominations)?
Well…no…as you’ve pointed out above…“not everything you and I believe in is spelled out that way in scripture”.
Well - you get the hat trick - no, the Grand Slam for non-answers! **
(What a surprise!:rolleyes:)

Leeann - if you can’t answer the tough questions asked here, maybe you ought to find a new hobby.
👍

Apologetics just doesn’t seem to be your game . . .
 
Well - you get the hat trick - no, the Grand Slam for non-answers*!*
(What a surprise!:rolleyes:)

Leeann
- if you can’t answer the tough questions asked here, maybe you ought to find a new hobby.👍

**Apologetics just doesn’t **seem to be your game . . .
:cool: I answered your question elvisman. Take off your “blinders”!

Now mine is still out there waiting…it’s a simple question.
 
Basically what you’re saying is that it was “a given” all along anyway – which is fine – but then it raises the question as to why all this honor and glory and deep veneration should be offered to Mary, based on her giving her “Fiat” - because she was going to do it anyway – there was no question to her not giving her “Fiat” – was there- at least as stated above.
“The very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary; if any stain had ever disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.”
Jacob of Sarug [ante A.D. 521]


Jacob of Sarug sermonized that if any maiden were purer and holier than Mary, God would have chosen her instead. He meant that Mary was the purest and holiest of Jewish maidens by the time of the Annunciation. No other woman compared with her in blessedness, and so God selected her from among all women. All the same, Mary was in the mind of God from all eternity before she was ever conceived. God knew when he fashioned Mary’s soul and preserved it free from the stain of original sin that she would freely respond to his will by cooperating with his grace. Thus she was granted this singular privilege upon her conception at which instant she was redeemed by Christ.

If it were not Mary who would have obeyed his word, then God would have sent the angel Gabriel to another maiden. God has ordained that a woman (Eve’s anti-type) cooperate with him in a state of sanctifying grace as a means to our salvation. Paul teaches us that all Christians are “co-workers with God” in his plan of salvation. But Mary’s collaboration was unique in that it directly contributed to Christ’s victory over sin and death, which makes our respective contributions possible through prayer and self-sacrifice now that salvation has been offered to the whole world.

From the beginning of the history of salvation the chosen mother of our Lord and Saviour was Mary (Gen 3:15) and could be no woman other than her, since God has chosen her from all eternity on account of her faithfulness and true blessedness (Lk 11:28) which he foresaw. Because of God’s omniscience, it is absolutely impossible that Mary could have refused to be the mother of our Lord. Once we know the outcome of a story in a novel by having read it the first time, we cannot expect the climax and ending to be different the next time we read the novel again. But neither should we expect the same outcome of the story to depend on our reading it a second time with the foreknowledge we have acquired by our first reading of the novel. The climax and ending are the result of the author’s liberty to write what he pleases.

Likewise, foreknowledge does not predetermine an event in the history of salavtion. God is the author of a plan or script, but the characters involved are free to choose as they please. E.M. Forster (Aspects of a Novel) tells us that the best authors of a novel are the ones who relinquish absolute control over the characters in their stories. So it’s a mistake to confuse God’s foreknowledge with predetermination. This is the grand fallacy behind Calvin’s doctrine of Predestination and the Elect. God does not consume our free will, the slavery of sin does. True human freedom lies in cooperating with God’s grace and thereby obeying his word. Thus to be saved, we must decide to be with a strong faith and confident hope in God’s promise. Mary is the exemplar par excellence of these Christian virtues among all human creatures. For by her trust in God we have all been saved.

In any event, Mary could not have been anything but faithful, since God had chosen her from among all women on account of foreseeing her faithfulness. No Christian can hold merit for being truly faithful if she has no free will. As an eternal and constant object of thought in the mind of God, Mary could never have been faithless, since she had proved herself faithful. God foresaw a woman who was free to either accept or reject his will, just as Eve had the freedom to obey or disobey God by listening to the serpent. God refused to control either woman. But he chose a woman whom he knew would freely obey his word. For this we who hope to be saved honour her.

If Eve had no free will on account of God’s foreknowledge, then God would have been responsible for the fall. God let it happen, but he did not intend that it should happen. Yet God did intend to save mankind after the fall (not after He saw something), so he chose a woman who would be the anti-type of Eve, a woman who would freely obey his word to reverse the fall in like manner it had originally occurred. When we speak of Mary’s obedience, we do not mean that she was a bondslave or a puppet on a string. Mary is a woman created in the image of God. We perceive Mary as the antithesis of fallen mankind and the anti-type of our ancestral biological maternal parent who rejected God’s word.

“And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the Virgin Mary set free through faith.”
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:22 [A.D. 180]


Deus tibi benedicas :signofcross:
 
:cool: I answered your question elvisman. Take off your “blinders”!

Now mine is still out there waiting…it’s a simple question.
**And is simply answered, as I and others have already stated. **Here goes:

**Whereas, you adhere to the flawed theory - not mandate, but flawed theory of Sola Scriptura to find your answers, I depend on the entire Deposit of Faith which encompasses Scripture and Tradition (oral and written). **

Jesus promised (as I have already stated ad nauseum) that his Holy Spirit would guide the Church into ALL truth and declare to the Church the things that are coming (John 16:13-15). This would imply that there are things to be revealed that are not revealed in Scripture. If you believe that Scripture is ALL we are supposed to appeal to, please provide Scriptural proof.

How are you doing so far?

Now, Mary’s perpetual virginity is argued for by just about every Church Father - some of whom were only a few generations away from her life. Some of these Fathers include (in no particular order):

**Cyril of Alexandria, Leporius, Augustine, Ambrose of Milan, Didymus the Blind, Jerome, Epiphanius, Athanasius, Hilary of Poitiers, Origen

With the Deposit of Faith, faith in Jesus’ promise in John 16:13-15
, and the testimonies of the Church Fathers on our side - not to mention the Old Testament comparisons with Mary and typology - this is why the perpetual virginity of Mary is to believed.

There you have it.
Now - answer MY
question that I posed to YOU.
**
 
And is simply answered, as I and others have already stated. Here goes:

Whereas, you adhere to the flawed
theory - not mandate, but flawed theory of Sola Scriptura to find your answers, I depend on the entire Deposit of Faith which encompasses Scripture and Tradition (oral and written).

**Jesus promised (as I have already **stated ad nauseum) that his Holy Spirit would guide the Church into ALL truth and declare to the Church the things that are coming (John 16:13-15). This would imply that there are things to be revealed that are not revealed in Scripture. If you believe that Scripture is ALL we are supposed to appeal to, please provide Scriptural proof.

How are you doing so far?

Now, Mary’s perpetual virginity is argued for by just about every Church Father - some of whom were only a few generations away from her life. Some of these Fathers include (in no particular order):
Cyril of Alexandria, Leporius, Augustine, Ambrose of Milan, Didymus the Blind, Jerome, Epiphanius, Athanasius, Hilary of Poitiers, Origen

With the Deposit of Faith, faith in Jesus’ promise in John 16:13-15
, and the testimonies of the Church Fathers on our side - not to mention the Old Testament comparisons with Mary and typology - this is why the perpetual virginity of Mary is to believed.

So would that be a “yes” or “no” ?
There you have it.
I answered your question elvisman. Post # 142
 
Then how do you reckon Her hymen broke? Do you think that even though She was still sealed while She became pregnant, it was during delivery that she lost it? Are you of the opinion that it was like a light leaving, letting her remain intact, but later, if you hold to She isn’t still a virgin, it was broken the regular way? Do you think it was cut open before she gave birth?

I know virgin births today are rare (no joke, things can happen), but, how does a baby get out? Wouldn’t the woman need to be cut first? For those who do not believe the BVM is still a virgin, how have you thought about this?
The dogma reads as follows: “Mary bore her Son without any violation of her virginal integrity”. As Catholics we are bound to believe only that statement. Dr. Ludwin Ott in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma says that “the dogma merely asserts the fact of the continuance of Mary’s physical virginity without determining more closely how this is to be physiologically explained” (The Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma pg. 205).

But while many of the Church Fathers (few exceptions) did hold to the belief that “Mary gave birth in miraculous fashion without opening of the womb and injury to the hymen, and consequently experienced no pain” (Ibid, pg. 205), that is not part of the dogma and, thus, there is no obligation to believe it.

For more information on this subject I recommend the following books:
Stanley Jaki’s booklet, The Virgin Birth and the Birth of Science
Father Stefano Manelli’s book All Generations Shall Call Me Blessed

Source: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=266131
 
“The very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary; if any stain had ever disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.”
Jacob of Sarug [ante A.D. 521]


Jacob of Sarug sermonized that if any maiden were purer and holier than Mary, God would have chosen her instead. He meant that Mary was the purest and holiest of Jewish maidens by the time of the Annunciation. No other woman compared with her in blessedness, and so God selected her from among all women. All the same, Mary was in the mind of God from all eternity before she was ever conceived. God knew when he fashioned Mary’s soul and preserved it free from the stain of original sin that she would freely respond to his will by cooperating with his grace. Thus she was granted this singular privilege upon her conception at which instant she was redeemed by Christ.

If it were not Mary who would have obeyed his word, then God would have sent the angel Gabriel to another maiden. God has ordained that a woman (Eve’s anti-type) cooperate with him in a state of sanctifying grace as a means to our salvation. Paul teaches us that all Christians are “co-workers with God” in his plan of salvation. But Mary’s collaboration was unique in that it directly contributed to Christ’s victory over sin and death, which makes our respective contributions possible through prayer and self-sacrifice now that salvation has been offered to the whole world.

From the beginning of the history of salvation the chosen mother of our Lord and Saviour was Mary (Gen 3:15) and could be no woman other than her, since God has chosen her from all eternity on account of her faithfulness and true blessedness (Lk 11:28) which he foresaw. Because of God’s omniscience, it is absolutely impossible that Mary could have refused to be the mother of our Lord. Once we know the outcome of a story in a novel by having read it the first time, we cannot expect the climax and ending to be different the next time we read the novel again. But neither should we expect the same outcome of the story to depend on our reading it a second time with the foreknowledge we have acquired by our first reading of the novel. The climax and ending are the result of the author’s liberty to write what he pleases.

Likewise, foreknowledge does not predetermine an event in the history of salavtion. God is the author of a plan or script, but the characters involved are free to choose as they please. E.M. Forster (Aspects of a Novel) tells us that the best authors of a novel are the ones who relinquish absolute control over the characters in their stories. So it’s a mistake to confuse God’s foreknowledge with predetermination. This is the grand fallacy behind Calvin’s doctrine of Predestination and the Elect. God does not consume our free will, the slavery of sin does. True human freedom lies in cooperating with God’s grace and thereby obeying his word. Thus to be saved, we must decide to be with a strong faith and confident hope in God’s promise. Mary is the exemplar par excellence of these Christian virtues among all human creatures. For by her trust in God we have all been saved.

In any event, Mary could not have been anything but faithful, since God had chosen her from among all women on account of foreseeing her faithfulness. No Christian can hold merit for being truly faithful if she has no free will. As an eternal and constant object of thought in the mind of God, Mary could never have been faithless, since she had proved herself faithful. God foresaw a woman who was free to either accept or reject his will, just as Eve had the freedom to obey or disobey God by listening to the serpent. God refused to control either woman. But he chose a woman whom he knew would freely obey his word. For this we who hope to be saved honour her.

If Eve had no free will on account of God’s foreknowledge, then God would have been responsible for the fall. God let it happen, but he did not intend that it should happen. Yet God did intend to save mankind after the fall (not after He saw something), so he chose a woman who would be the anti-type of Eve, a woman who would freely obey his word to reverse the fall in like manner it had originally occurred. When we speak of Mary’s obedience, we do not mean that she was a bondslave or a puppet on a string. Mary is a woman created in the image of God. We perceive Mary as the antithesis of fallen mankind and the anti-type of our ancestral biological maternal parent who rejected God’s word.

“And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the Virgin Mary set free through faith.”
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:22 [A.D. 180]


Good Fella on a good day…:juggle:
 
Good Fella;4304775 said:
“The very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary; if any stain had ever disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.”
Jacob of Sarug [ante A.D. 521]

Jacob of Sarug sermonized that if any maiden were purer and holier than Mary, God would have chosen her instead. He meant that Mary was the purest and holiest of Jewish maidens by the time of the Annunciation. No other woman compared with her in blessedness, and so God selected her from among all women. All the same, Mary was in the mind of God from all eternity before she was ever conceived. God knew when he fashioned Mary’s soul and preserved it free from the stain of original sin that she would freely respond to his will by cooperating with his grace. Thus she was granted this singular privilege upon her conception at which instant she was redeemed by Christ.

If it were not Mary who would have obeyed his word, then God would have sent the angel Gabriel to another maiden. God has ordained that a woman (Eve’s anti-type) cooperate with him in a state of sanctifying grace as a means to our salvation. Paul teaches us that all Christians are “co-workers with God” in his plan of salvation. But Mary’s collaboration was unique in that it directly contributed to Christ’s victory over sin and death, which makes our respective contributions possible through prayer and self-sacrifice now that salvation has been offered to the whole world.

From the beginning of the history of salvation the chosen mother of our Lord and Saviour was Mary (Gen 3:15) and could be no woman other than her, since God has chosen her from all eternity on account of her faithfulness and true blessedness (Lk 11:28) which he foresaw. Because of God’s omniscience, it is absolutely impossible that Mary could have refused to be the mother of our Lord. Once we know the outcome of a story in a novel by having read it the first time, we cannot expect the climax and ending to be different the next time we read the novel again. But neither should we expect the same outcome of the story to depend on our reading it a second time with the foreknowledge we have acquired by our first reading of the novel. The climax and ending are the result of the author’s liberty to write what he pleases.

Likewise, foreknowledge does not predetermine an event in the history of salavtion. God is the author of a plan or script, but the characters involved are free to choose as they please. E.M. Forster (Aspects of a Novel) tells us that the best authors of a novel are the ones who relinquish absolute control over the characters in their stories. So it’s a mistake to confuse God’s foreknowledge with predetermination. This is the grand fallacy behind Calvin’s doctrine of Predestination and the Elect. God does not consume our free will, the slavery of sin does. True human freedom lies in cooperating with God’s grace and thereby obeying his word. Thus to be saved, we must decide to be with a strong faith and confident hope in God’s promise. Mary is the exemplar par excellence of these Christian virtues among all human creatures. For by her trust in God we have all been saved.

In any event, Mary could not have been anything but faithful, since God had chosen her from among all women on account of foreseeing her faithfulness. No Christian can hold merit for being truly faithful if she has no free will. As an eternal and constant object of thought in the mind of God, Mary could never have been faithless, since she had proved herself faithful. God foresaw a woman who was free to either accept or reject his will, just as Eve had the freedom to obey or disobey God by listening to the serpent. God refused to control either woman. But he chose a woman whom he knew would freely obey his word. For this we who hope to be saved honour her.

If Eve had no free will on account of God’s foreknowledge, then God would have been responsible for the fall. God let it happen, but he did not intend that it should happen. Yet God did intend to save mankind after the fall (not after He saw something), so he chose a woman who would be the anti-type of Eve, a woman who would freely obey his word to reverse the fall in like manner it had originally occurred. When we speak of Mary’s obedience, we do not mean that she was a bondslave or a puppet on a string. Mary is a woman created in the image of God. We perceive Mary as the antithesis of fallen mankind and the anti-type of our ancestral biological maternal parent who rejected God’s word.

“And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the Virgin Mary set free through faith.”
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:22 [A.D. 180]


Good Fella on a good day…:juggle: If you can, subtract the personality conflict from this and actually read the words. This is what the Church (which same authority gave you the bible) has believed from the earliest days. This is what the Muslims believe about Mary. Only since the Protestant rebellion has Mary’s name been dragged through the mud. Thank about that for a while - say, over the weekend.
 
Leeann;4306035:
If you can, subtract the personality conflict from this and actually read the words. This is what the Church (which same authority gave you the bible) has believed from the earliest days. This is what the Muslims believe about Mary. Only since the Protestant rebellion has Mary’s name been dragged through the mud. Thank about that for a while - say, over the weekend.
Sorry, you can’t blame the Protestants for that.
I cannot speak for all of them, as **none of us **should ever attempt to do that, however I think I would be correct in stating that most of them believe that “the Mary” that the Catholic church presents, is not the same Mary that was Jesus’ mother.
They haven’t ‘dragged her name through the mud’ – they’re trying to salvage any vestige of truth in relation to her.

As with regards to the bible – that is something wonderful isn’t it, how God used those wonderfully, faithful, skilled and inspired Christian people to make sure His word would be available to all His children. I for one am forever grateful and admire their love and dedication and obedience in doing HIS WILL, by HIS authority.
 
They haven’t ‘dragged her name through the mud’ – they’re trying to salvage any vestige of truth in relation to her.
No, no they are not. They are trying to portray her as a sinful woman who was basically Kane to Jesus’ Alien.
 
While I accept the perpetual virginity of Mary as a matter of faith, I don’t see why it is necessary. Sexual activity within a marriage is not sinful so it doesn’t make any difference if Mary and Joseph engaged in sexual relations. It would not destroy my faith to find out that Catholic teaching on the perpetual virginity of Mary is incorrect. It simply is not an essential teaching which has any bearing on my faith in the divinity of Christ. Who cares what Mary and Joseph might have done together after the birth of Christ?
 
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