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Prodigal_Son
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This is not what the Church teaches. Pope Benedict clearly said that there is room for a diversity of opinion on the matter of lying.
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If push comes to shove I choose conscience over Church teaching
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Mtdobbs
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Agreed, there are scriptures in the Old Testament of God telling kings to send spies ( who’s job was to deceive) to spy on enemies. Why would a God who says do not bear false witness ( lie) to send spies who would be lying about who they were, what they were doing?
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I don’t think that is necessarily the case. The conscience must always be in conformity with the objective truth.I just know that the lines are so grey sometimes that it makes these objective truths different for each persons conscience.
For example: Abortion is always wrong. Truth.
If someone somehow manages to justify abortion in their conscience then that is an error and the remedy is to further conform the conscience to objective truth.
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Mtdobbs
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Oh of course. Abortion is one of easier ones for me to always defend. There are a few that are difficult.
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Mary888
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For protecting someone else in a serious situation I would lie with a clear conscience too provided I accept that I may have to pay later in front of God.
Please remember that “do not lie” is not exactly just “Church teaching” is one of God’s commandments revealed to His prophet (Moses), reaffirmed by Christ in the New Testament. Is not the same as the Church Sunday obligation for example. Or holding the fasts or another rule the Church brought and you can believe them or not it was revealed to them through the Holy Spirit.
On a tv show I once saw a Rabbi nuancing lying and the sin of lying by saying that “lying is a sin only if you intent to deceive”. This is complicated to me because I don’t realize any case in which lying is not deceiving.
I do live by conscience most of the time but I do give credentials to the Church for that too because the prayers, icons, rituals, books do influence my conscience (in a good way imho).
Please remember that “do not lie” is not exactly just “Church teaching” is one of God’s commandments revealed to His prophet (Moses), reaffirmed by Christ in the New Testament. Is not the same as the Church Sunday obligation for example. Or holding the fasts or another rule the Church brought and you can believe them or not it was revealed to them through the Holy Spirit.
On a tv show I once saw a Rabbi nuancing lying and the sin of lying by saying that “lying is a sin only if you intent to deceive”. This is complicated to me because I don’t realize any case in which lying is not deceiving.
I do live by conscience most of the time but I do give credentials to the Church for that too because the prayers, icons, rituals, books do influence my conscience (in a good way imho).
The actual translation is “do not bear false witness”.Please remember that “do not lie” is not exactly just “Church teaching” is one of God’s commandments revealed to His prophet (Moses)
Same as do not kill is actually “do not murder”. Killing is not necessarily always wrong.
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Mtdobbs
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Is there an obligation to even bear a witness ? Even if you know the truth, can you just not say. Are you nuts, why would you think I’d know the answer
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Mtdobbs
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Bear no false witness… but what about not bearing a witness at all, or using mental gymnastics( which I’m not good at lol)
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Mtdobbs
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Are we obligated to bear a witness in every question we are ever asked? It just says bear no false witness.
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Mtdobbs
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Sorry good-catholic, I’m not tying to derail your thread as I actually am supportive that we all have to live by our conscience, guided by truth and the church … but what are we to do when these 2 things seem to conflict.
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goodcatholic
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Pray first anywaythat we all have to live by our conscience, guided by truth and the church … but what are we to do when these 2 things seem to conflict.
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Mtdobbs
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Has to be he prerequisite! Haha
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goodcatholic
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The Church has to take the Absolute view on this. As society is seemingly backsliding further and further I admire the Church’s firm stance. That is not to say that we (and the Church)don’t show mercy to people who get themselves in trouble and commit serious sin by having one. We should be careful not to judge others.For example: Abortion is always wrong. Truth.
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goodcatholic
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That is surprising.Pope Benedict clearly said that there is room for a diversity of opinion on the matter of lying.
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Mtdobbs
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Over the past hundred years there has been a growing movement among moral theologians to tweak the definition of lying as follows: “To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead into error someone who has the right to know the truth.” This very sentence, in fact, is taken from the initial edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 2483, 1994 edition).
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goodcatholic
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I want to steer clear of relativism too. But I see problems with absolutism as well. And how people interpret Absolutism.As Catholics , we have to believe in objective truth. That truth is always good and never changes or else it becomes relativism. I get this.
Of course.That is not to say that we (and the Church)don’t show mercy to people who get themselves in trouble and commit serious sin by having one.
Saying an action is objectively always wrong is not making a judgement on the person.We should be careful not to judge others.
We can judge actions. We can not judge the person’s heart.
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Curious11
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That’s incredibly mean. How is this attitude Christian or even moral for that matter?
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Curious11
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I agree with you Ron. The spirit of the law is above the letter in my view. But what do I know, i’m an atheist
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