If the Qur'an is wrong, why be Muslim?

[JMM1957]

My dear JMM1957,

If you sincerely believe what you wrote then how do you account for the following verses in the Gospel of Luke:

*1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

and1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.

Gabriel is viewed as a personification of the Holy Spirit:

“The angel Gabriel, the Holy Spirit, is the highest of all the angels. It is his duty to write down the decrees of God; through him the Koran was revealed to Mahommad, and it is he who, hovering above the throne of God, shelters it with his wings. Hafiz therefore claims for Shiraz the protection of him who is guardian of the highest place in heaven.”

(Islamic Miscellaneous, Teachings of Hafiz (G. L. Bell tr))

Thus have we sent the Spirit (Gabriel) to thee with a revelation, by our
command. Thou knowest not, ere this, what “the Book” was, or what the faith.
But we have ordained it for a light: by it will we guide whom we please of our
servants. And thou shalt surely guide into the right way,

(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura  42:51 - Counsel)

So the angel Gabriel is a “personification” of the Holy Spirit…

In the Gospel of Mark the personification is a “dove”:

1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Galatians was written many, many years after the two verses you quoted above took place. Paul is specifically referring to his* time period onward, “do not believe a gospel preached differently than the one handed on to you”(paraphrased). Muhammed preached a different message.

 

[hasantas]

Why then did muhammad have no recollection of anything until after the age of 40, until Gabriel visited him in a cave?

Muhammad was not aware of many things before revelation. Being briefing was not just through Qur’an verses but Muhammad was informed through several ways after revelation which Muhammad preached as Hadiths.

 

[hasantas]

=Randy Carson;14097265]What is your evidence for this?

A dozen or more contemporaries of Jesus wrote accounts of his crucifixion.

Who is it that claims that Jesus did not die on the cross?

Someone who was not there? Someone who did not see Him hanging on the cross? And someone who did not see the holes in His hands, feet and side when He appeared three days later?

Why should we believe this person? Would any court in the world accept such testimony?

Jesus prayed Father to be saved and Father was used to accept request of Jesus. Just think in that way if Jesus was human part of God so why God would not accept a request from human part of Himself? It is very strange talking about God in that manner just as human nature and divine nature!

As I wrote many times someone who looked like Jesus was crucified. Every one would think that Jesus was crucified.

God is every where! Qur’an is not word of Muhammad. Muslims do not reject anything from Bible and why you reject Qur’an totaly? I answer that because you indeed neither obey Bible actually but you follow some conjectures.

 

[JMM1957]

It is said that someone else was crucified instead of Jesus. So Jesus should had been saved before crucifixion.

And you also said:
If Jesus knew what would happen so He should not had emptied Himself absolutely! Jesus made many prophecies and performed many miracles so that prove that He was not actually emptied. If Jesus was God and He was aware of that so why did He go to Sajdah(kneeled down)? And İf He went to crucifixion by His will so why Jesus was so willing to be saved? And if Jesus is god so why He worshiped God(kneeled down and prayed) ? Do God worship God?

Do you not see the conflictions?

Jesus did not go on crucifixion so He would not say that " I escaped from crucifixion"!

And you also said:
When Jesus prayed Father for something so Father was used to accept that. Jesus prayed for salvation from crucifixion so Father would accept, would not?

The issue here is obviously a difference in the understanding of the nature of God between Islam and Christianity, I get that. But putting that aside, it is important to understand the truth of the crucifixion of Jesus, that it actually happened to Jesus, and not someone else put in his place on the cross.

The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, all of them show Jesus praying to the Father to let the cup pass from him, if it be the will of the Father. Jesus was at all times willing to accept death even though he asked that the hour might pass from him. In the Gospel of John, chapter 17 ( you may want to read all of it). it shows Jesus praying to his Father and embracing his Father’s will and inevitable death on the cross, he did not ask that the cup pass from him this time.

The Father’s will had to be accomplished in order for us to be able to gain eternal life, Jesus, a sinless man, the Son of the Father, needed to shed blood on the cross and die for forgiveness of sins. No other person could take his place, the sacrifice would not have counted towards anything. The death of Jesus Christ on the cross has eternal meaning, it is of the ultimate importance for our salvation to accept it. It is only through this belief in Jesus and his sacrifice that we can be saved, no other.

 

[JMM1957]

Jesus prayed Father to be saved and Father was used to accept request of Jesus. Just think in that way if Jesus was human part of God so why God would not accept a request from human part of Himself? It is very strange talking about God in that manner just as human nature and divine nature!

As I wrote many times someone who looked like Jesus was crucified. Every one would think that Jesus was crucified.

God is every where! Qur’an is not word of Muhammad. Muslims do not reject anything from Bible and why you reject Qur’an totaly? I answer that because you indeed neither obey Bible actually but you follow some conjectures.

But you do reject the most important part which is Jesus actual death on the cross. You show no proof that he did not die on the cross as the Holy Scriptures say. Your disbelief relies on hearsay.

 

[hasantas]

=Randy Carson;14097265]

Good. Then you should trust these words of the Prophet Jesus:

Luke 24:36-47
Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.

44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Why would the disciples think they saw a ghost if they did not think that Jesus was actually dead?

And why would Jesus be showing them his wounds if not to convince them that He was really alive again?

All people thought that Jesus was dead so when they saw Him they were shocked.

Did Jesus say anything about wounds? He just showed His hands and feet. Perhaps Jesus illustrated that His hands and feet had no wounds.

So, how can someone living 600 years later and hundreds of miles away be believed when he claims that Jesus did not die?

I can say for countless times that Qur’an is not word of Muhammad.

 

[hasantas]

But you do reject the most important part which is Jesus actual death on the cross. You show no proof that he did not die on the cross as the Holy Scriptures say. Your disbelief relies on hearsay.

Jesus prayed to be saved(Luke 22:42) and Jesus did not say anything about crucifixion. If Jesus did not say any thing about crucifixion so how that case could be actual? Did Jesus say such thing "I raised from death? No.

I believe in Qur’an and Bible and I do not believe in conjectures.

 

[JMM1957]

Could you show a verse in which Jesus said that He got crucified and raised from death after crucifixion? As much I know Jesus did not claim such thing. A man was crucifixed and that is true but wast that Jesus? .

Luke 24:5-7
Mark 16:6
Revelation 1:17-18

You asked for a verse, I give you verses.

Also, tell me at what point in the crucifixion accounts you believe Jesus was taken to heaven, without being crucified, and the impostor was put on the cross?

 

[JMM1957]

Jesus prayed to be saved(Luke 22:42) and Jesus did not say anything about crucifixion. If Jesus did not say any thing about crucifixion so how that case could be actual? Did Jesus say such thing "I raised from death? No.

I believe in Qur’an and Bible and I do not believe in conjectures.

Then what was Jesus praying to be saved from???

 

[JMM1957]

Jesus prayed to be saved(Luke 22:42) and Jesus did not say anything about crucifixion. If Jesus did not say any thing about crucifixion so how that case could be actual? Did Jesus say such thing "I raised from death? No.

I believe in Qur’an and Bible and I do not believe in conjectures.

If you believe in the Bible, not just parts of it, but all of it, then you believe that Jesus predicted his coming death to his disciples, and his resurrection from the dead after three days. Do you need a verse? Mark 10:33, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be handed over the the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death and hand him over the the Gentiles who will mock him, spit upon him, scourge him, and put him to death, but after three days he will rise.”

 

[hasantas]

There is no wounds so Jesus tried so much to persuade Thomas otherwise Jesus would say here wounds.

 

[JMM1957]

There is no wounds so Jesus tried so much to persuade Thomas otherwise Jesus would say here wounds.

hasantas, in John 20:25, Thomas the disciple says “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into his side, I will not believe.” Just after that Jesus appears to the disciples coming through locked doors, and shows Thomas his wounds and Thomas believes. What more do you need?

 

[hasantas]

If you believe in the Bible, not just parts of it, but all of it, then you believe that Jesus predicted his coming death to his disciples, and his resurrection from the dead after three days. Do you need a verse? Mark 10:33, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be handed over the the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death and hand him over the the Gentiles who will mock him, spit upon him, scourge him, and put him to death, but after three days he will rise.”

Yes, Yes. Jesus was informed about being sentenced to death and He mentioned that many times. And when the time came Jesus prayed to be saved. Jesus had apprehended that He would be saved by any how!

 

[hasantas]

hasantas, in John 20:25, Thomas the disciple says “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into his side, I will not believe.” Just after that Jesus appears to the disciples coming through locked doors, and shows Thomas his wounds and Thomas believes. What more do you need?

Jesus showed His hands and feet but not wounds. Did Jesus said look at my wounds?

 

[JMM1957]

Jesus showed His hands and feet but not wounds. Did Jesus said look at my wounds?

Again, Thomas said he would not believe until he saw the wounds of Jesus, and when he saw the wounds he believed. “Jesus said to him (Thomas), have you come to believe because you have seen me?” Thomas believed because he saw the wounds. The impostor who you claim was crucified instead of Jesus could not have been alive and appeared to the disciples. Only Jesus could have appeared to them as he was raised from the dead.

 

[Vico]

Jesus showed His hands and feet but not wounds. Did Jesus said look at my wounds?

John 20:24-29

24 Thomas, called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples said to him,

“We have seen the Lord.”
But he said to them,
“Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nailmarks and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
26 Now a week later his disciples were again inside and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and stood in their midst and said,
“Peace be with you.”
27 Then he said to Thomas,
“Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring your hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe.”
28 [a]Thomas answered and said to him,
“My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to him,
“Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.”​

 

[JMM1957]

hasantas, an example: If I was a friend of yours, and I called you on the phone and told you that I had just broken my leg and received a cast on it at the hospital, and you said that you wouldn’t believe it until you saw the cast, so the next day I came to your house and you saw me, would you expect me to say “look here at my cast, I broke my leg” or would you just assume I broke my leg because of the cast?

 

[JMM1957]

John 20:24-29

27 Then he said to Thomas,
“Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring your hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe.”

hasantas, what was Jesus asking Thomas to believe here in this verse? If an impostor truly died on the cross as you believe, and not the real Jesus, then who was it that was appearing to Thomas and the other disciples? So you believe the following?

1. The real Jesus was saved and taken to heaven by God and was not crucified to death
2. An impostor who looked like Jesus died on the cross in the place of the real Jesus, and that person was buried and remained dead.
3. A third person who also looked like Jesus but never died, appeared to the disciples

The ascension of Jesus was witnessed by the disciples (Luke 24:50-53) Who do you believe was taken up to heaven here?

Please correct me if I misunderstand.

 

[JMM1957]

All people thought that Jesus was dead so when they saw Him they were shocked.

Yes hasantas, they were certainly shocked, and startled, and amazed, and then they realized that everything Jesus told them beforehand had come true. For the disciples including Thomas (John 20:20, John 20:27), seeing the wounds of Jesus caused them to believe it was Him who had been raised from the dead. Seeing the wounds in the hands, feet and side was significant. Having an impostor appear showing no wounds…what would that have accomplished?

 

[JimmyDFG]

Jimmy the word is

(4:157:15)
shubbiha
it was made to appear (so)

corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(4:157:15

meaning it appeared to them that they had killed the Messiah… or destroyed His Cause… We know this was not the case…

The translations have nothing about ghosts or spirits… It’s a verb.

Regardless this would be a form of deceit on allahs part. If you were to lead people to believe something else than what actually happen is deceit. It seems it has to do with “disbelief” as it mentions through 4:150-4:156 So allah made “it appeared to them that they had killed the Messiah” This is deceit.

What the quran states in 4:157 would have no needing to what Jesus said in Matthew 5:11 “Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you [falsely] because of me”

In the Gospels of Matthew 8:26 Jesus says …“O you of little faith…” and in John 8:24 Jesus gives a warning about disbelief " For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.” He warned us about disbelief and of “Little faith” …and then we have allah making things “appear” that they killed Jesus. Why would allah do such a thing…because Jesus said himself in Matthew 5:45 “… heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.”