If the SSPX where to return to Rome this week...

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saint_rafael said:
He was a model of respect and submission towards his religious and ecclesiastical superiors, especially during the time when he was persecuted. Nonetheless, he could not remain silent over a deviation that was baneful to the Church. Even before the end of the Council, in February 1965, someone announced to him that soon he would have to celebrate the Mass according to a new rite, ad experimentum, in the vernacular, which had been devised by a conciliar liturgical commission in order to respond to the aspirations of modern man. Immediately, even before seeing the text, he wrote to Paul VI to ask him to be dispensed from the liturgical experiment, and to be able to continue to celebrate the Mass of St. Pius V. When Cardinal Bacci came to see him in order to bring the authorization, Padre Pio let a complaint escape in the presence of the Pope’s messenger: “For pity sake, end the Council quickly.”

sspx.org/miscellaneous/padre_pio.htm

Pope Paul VI granted the request of Padre Pio to say ony the TLM and not the New Mass wich St. Pio knew was going to come out of the commission on liturgy. It did come out after his death, but St. Pio wanted nothing to do with a New Mass beginning in '65.
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You took a whole paragraph out of this article and claimed it as your own. This is called plagarism.

Anyway, the article itself gives no references for where this quote came from. Likewise, it is not even a second-hand account. I am sorry to say that it does not really help you to make a point, but makes your point that much more dubious.
 
Kev(name removed by moderator)hillips said:
Pax Tecum

The discussion should not be “if the SSPX where to return to Rome this week…”, but if the modern church were to return to tradition. There is nothing wrong with tradition; except for the lack of knowledge of tradition.

Kevin Phillips
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So, are you saying that the True Church resides in the sspx?
 
Kev(name removed by moderator)hillips said:
Pax Tecum

The discussion should not be “if the SSPX where to return to Rome this week…”, but if the modern church were to return to tradition. There is nothing wrong with tradition; except for the lack of knowledge of tradition.

Kevin Phillips
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Change IS tradition in action…obedience IS tradtion as well.

There is an offer on the table from Rome, for the SSPX to “return”…That is the reality. That is the current issue. That is what this thread is about.

Comments like this seem to underscore the problem to begin with. Those in “irregular standing” wanting to tell the rest of us “the way it oughta be”…:cool:
 
NicPais83 said:
I didn’t say that Padre Pio made any claims as to the type of Pope he was, but you are placing words in his mouth by stating what he would have believed and felt about Pope John Paul II’s pontificate. This is not something that you can validly do, neither of us are Padre Pio, and the most we can do is speak with what is fact, not speculate as you are doing.

As was stated in an earlier post, the Novus Ordo wasn’t promulgated until 1969, and with Padre Pio dying in 1968, your logic is highly faulty. Again, you are assuming that he would have rejected the reform, which is once more making assumptions as to what his thoughts were, which none of us, except God, have the power to do. Now, at the time of 1968, there would have been some interim Ordo Missae around, such as the 1965 Missal (not a promulgated Missal, but an interim). However, Pope Paul VI did give permission for older priests to continue using the 1962 Missal, such as Jose Maria Escriva. This isn’t their rejection of the 1969 Missal, but a courtesy to older priests.
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read the links I gave in the prior post:

olrl.org/lives/padrepio.shtml

sspx.org/miscellaneous/padre_pio.htm

Padre Pio did not want anything to do with a New Mass that the commission was working on in '65. He got permission to say only the TLM because he only wanted to say the TLM. St. Pio did not know he was going to die in '68 and wanted only the TLM for the rest of his life.
 
NicPais83 said:
You took a whole paragraph out of this article and claimed it as your own. This is called plagarism.

Anyway, the article itself gives no references for where this quote came from. Likewise, it is not even a second-hand account. I am sorry to say that it does not really help you to make a point, but makes your point that much more dubious.
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Are you sane?

I qouted a paragraph and provided the link to where I got it. That is not plagarism.

Plagarism is copying a paragraph and saying it is my own words without a source, link, or qoutation.
 
You people either accept the story of St. Pio and the New Mass or not.

It is up to you. I am not going to play your games.
 
saint_rafael said:
Are you sane?

I qouted a paragraph and provided the link to where I got it. That is not plagarism.

Plagarism is copying a paragraph and saying it is my own words without a source, link, or qoutation.
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You most certainly plagiarized. It was not obvious to me reading that that you took it from your source. There were no quotations or anything that made that obvious at all. But the truth is that if you feel the need to question my sanity, then I must have hit a nerve somewhere.
 
NicPais83 said:
You took a whole paragraph out of this article and claimed it as your own. This is called plagarism.
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Say what? He gave the link to support his quote which is exactly what you are supposed to do
Anyway, the article itself gives no references for where this quote came from. Likewise, it is not even a second-hand account. I am sorry to say that it does not really help you to make a point, but makes your point that much more dubious.
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Why does it matter what Padre Pio thought about the New Mass?

The rejection of the SSPX of the vaticans offer is a true tragedy.
 
saint_rafael said:
You people either accept the story of St. Pio and the New Mass or not.

It is up to you. I am not going to play your games.
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You cannot make a statement about Padre Pio without an irrefutable source, such as a primary source. You have not given us a primary source, but have given us something that is at least three-times removed from Padre Pio. And when asked for clarification, and challenged on the authenticity of the source, you turn to mockery. I am truly sorry if that is how you feel on the matter. But the source you gave is dubious at best, and all you have given me is speculation as to how Padre Pio would feel today. You must understand that from the point of view of a persuasive argument, that these are not sound tactics.
 
estesbob said:
Say what? He gave the link to support his quote which is exactly what you are supposed to do

Why does it matter what Padre Pio thought about the New Mass?

The rejection of the SSPX of the vaticans offer is a true tragedy.
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You are right, the rejection of the offer by the SSPX is the true tragedy. While he may have given the link, he did not make it obvious that the paragraph before it in his post was not his own words, and that is what I am reacting to.
 
NicPais83 said:
You cannot make a statement about Padre Pio without an irrefutable source, such as a primary source. You have not given us a primary source, but have given us something that is at least three-times removed from Padre Pio. And when asked for clarification, and challenged on the authenticity of the source, you turn to mockery. I am truly sorry if that is how you feel on the matter. But the source you gave is dubious at best, and all you have given me is speculation as to how Padre Pio would feel today. You must understand that from the point of view of a persuasive argument, that these are not sound tactics.
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What are you, a graduate English professor?
Padre Pio has been dead since '68 and there is no primary source I know of.

The source is not primary, but it is still a source. You can accept it or not.
 
saint_rafael said:
That is because you have a prejudice against the SSPX.

Here is a different source:

olrl.org/lives/padrepio.shtml
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I asked for an authoritative source. This web site supports SSPX and goes even further and promotes sedevacantism.

Also, do not claim to put words into my mouth or thoughts into my head. I am not prejudiced against the SSPX. I have, for a time, attended Mass at the local SSPX chapel. You comment here was rather uncharitable and, therefore, not consistent with how a faithful Catholic is to behave.

I am concerned about SSPX rhetoric, which has not proved to be entirely factual in the past and is often vitriolic. No one who abuses and mocks the Pope can be considered a reliable source for Church teaching, or really anything, actually.

Failure to provide an authoritative source will leave us all with few alternatives than to reject your assertions.

But this thread is drifting off topic.

Again, I call on all people to humbly pray that SSPX and the Holy See will reconcile. I hope we will know the final answer in a few days.
 
saint_rafael said:
What are you, a graduate English professor?
Padre Pio has been dead since '68 and there is no primary source I know of.

The source is not primary, but it is still a source. You can accept it or not.
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If there are no primary sources that you know of, then you should refrain from making any remarks about what Padre Pio said or thought.
 
NicPais83 said:
If there are no primary sources that you know of, then you should refrain from making any remarks about what Padre Pio said or thought.
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Quite correct. 👍

I would add that we all should remain charitable. Snarky comments and snide remarks do not contribute to a reasoned and rational conversation.
 
NicPais83 said:
If there are no primary sources that you know of, then you should refrain from making any remarks about what Padre Pio said or thought.
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The sources I cited relate to Padre Pio receiving permission to only say the TLM.

That is what the sources were about. Padre Pio did not want to say any New Mass, but only the TLM.

I meant to convey that there was no primary source I knew of from the internet. I could not find one on the net.

If you want a primary source, you are going to have to go to the Vatican Archive for the document Pope Paul VI wrote granting the request. However, the Vatican does not allow the average Catholic access to their records or archives.
 
saint_rafael said:
The sources I cited relate to Padre Pio receiving permission to only say the TLM.

That is what the sources were about. Padre Pio did not want to say any New Mass, but only the TLM.

I .
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I am still at a loss as to why this matters?
 
saint_rafael said:
Excuse me? I have to give proof? The burden falls on you. My proof is clear
.** There is not one word or anything recorded is history showing that the bishops called the Holy Spirit. There is nothing. **
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The Rhine flows into the Tiber the most respected historical book on Vatican II published right after the council page 139
After the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy had passed at the council
"Pope Paul then rose and solemnly promulgated the Constitution …
“In the Name of the Most holy and Undivided Trinity, the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The decrees, which have now been read in this Sacred and universal Second Vatican Council, lawfully assembled, have pleased the Council Fathers. And we, by Apostolic power given to us by Christ, together with the Venerable Fathers, do approve, enact, and establish these decrees in the Holy Spirit, and command that what has thus been established in the Council be promulgated unto the glory of God.”
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