If There Is No Heaven Will You Still Love God?

[MindOverMatter]

PRECISELY AGAIN. And that gift of LOVE he is giving us NOW. He is not waiting for us to die before giving us the gift of love.

What is your hypothetical God giving us that reflects his love?

You keep failing to understand that.

No. I do not fail to understand.

Moral truth does not depend on heaven.
What does it depend on? A better question would be; what is the point of morality, if it does not reflect the perfection of being?
benedictus2;5075096:

Heaven is not the Author of morality.

Heaven is the goal or end that morality “eternally” points to. It is in the nature of morality that this ought to be the case.

You keep running into this error because you have this equation that GOD=Heaven.

I see no error. A “place” cannot fulfill human beings. Only God can fulfill human beings. You merely make assertions, while i give good reasons for my position. Nobody can truly describe in words what heaven is; but we know what heaven might be like in so far as our knowledge of those things which we believe, feel or experience, to be good in the here and now. Life itself is full of living metaphors which give us a glimpse of the life to come. We use terms such as “places” in order to give heaven a conceptual basis we can understand. We know what a wonderful place looks like and so we can use that as a descriptive analogy of heaven; since heaven is ultimate fulfillment. Revelations describes something like heaven, when they speak of a kingdom coming down from the heavens made of many precious and rear stones. But one is not meant to take that literally!!!

Although i believe we will experience heaven in a place that may very well be pleasing to the senses, it doesn’t make sense to me to think of heaven as being the place in itself. A thing only has meaning, beauty, wonder, and enjoyment, because God is at the root of it; and thus God is the only being that truly fulfills. In recognizing that, we avoid idolatry.

Only in a materialistic view of the world.

It doesn’t matter if the world is supernatural or natural. A world without salvation is a pointless world. If i exist for Gods amusement and entertainment, then i do not want to exist.

You are quite wrong there. There are lot of atheists who still have children even though they believe that this world is all there is.

Then they are irresponsible people who obviously take reality for granted. If there is No God, then life is insanity, and i cannot forgive anyone, who is wise in knowledge, for bringing life into it. For once one sees through the fairy tale that people call humanity, we see the harsh reality that we are just things. These things might delude themselves into believing in the good of children, but in reality they are merely following their instinctual desires, their genes, their fashionable ideologies, or even the warm sense of creativity, meaning, glory, authority and parent-hood that one feels when contemplating the making of children. But they are not thinking about the existential needs of the children. They are merely trying to fulfill there own needs by trying to invent and fulfill their own purpose, comfort, and meaning in response to a pointless and purposeless world; and one of the ways we go about doing that is by creating heirs to our thrones. Only a cruel person knowingly brings a child into a world like this and tells them there is no God.
benedictus2;5075096:
Does that mean that atheists have a better appreciation of the goodness of existence even though such existence is temporary?

I don’t know what you mean by the goodness of existence? But i know that people appreciate life only in so far as it serves their needs.

Okay so you cannot answer yes.

I have given my answer plenty of times.

But why not just be honest that you cannot answer yes, like the others instead of trying to show that the question is invalid when I have already showed you that the question is valid PRECISELY BECAUSE we believe in heaven.

We have hope because of the promise that God gave to us. None of us would believe otherwise. I have never known or cared for the God that does not give us salvation. I cannot love that which i do not believe in. The God you are speaking about is a false God.

Others see the point of this thread. If you don’t that’s okay.

I don’t think they do. There is a serious error, and i want to expose it.

Others don’t think so. As I have mentioned before, saints get the point.

I strongly suspect that you do not truly grasp what the saints mean. And even if the saints truly believe that heaven is a place, that doesn’t mean that heaven is truly a place. I am not aware that sainthood is synonymous to infallibility.

I don’t know but I think your vehemence is born of fear.

Nope. I just get frustrated when people fail to understand me.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Well hear goes,Ive been reading alot of the posts and it made me think that if there was no heaven then there would not have been the death of Christ and if there were no need for his death then that must mean(the way i take it) that there must not be any sin (no devil) no need for heaven and we would love God proberly even more because our lives would be a heaven on earth and there woldn’t be any sickness because that was bought on by sin and no death because that would have been bought on by sin, and their would be no fighting and dispair,we’d be in heaven period wouldn’t we? I look at lt like this,even if we had to die,but lived a beautiful life without sin and problems it would be a wonderful thing Yes i’d still praise God and love him. But if i suffered alot and there was sin and horror and nothing to look forward to and i knew we were going to just die after all that i’d be confused as to why i was here in the first place,heaven is worth suffering for that’s why the decipals were willing to die like they did because they knew to be absent from the body would to be present with the Lord,then and only then to die would be gain. Love of Christ Nancy

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

What is your hypothetical God giving us that reflects his love?

No. I do not fail to understand.

What does it depend on? A better question would be; what is the point of morality, if it does not reflect the perfection of being?

Heaven is the goal or end that morality “eternally” points to. It is in the nature of morality that this ought to be the case.

I see no error. A “place” cannot fulfill human beings. Only God can fulfill human beings. You merely make assertions, while i give good reasons for my position. Nobody can truly describe in words what heaven is; but we know what heaven might be like in so far as our knowledge of those things which we believe, feel or experience, to be good in the here and now. Life itself is full of living metaphors which give us a glimpse of the life to come. We use terms such as “places” in order to give heaven a conceptual basis we can understand. We know what a wonderful place looks like and so we can use that as a descriptive analogy of heaven; since heaven is ultimate fulfillment. Revelations describes something like heaven, when they speak of a kingdom coming down from the heavens made of many precious and rear stones. But one is not meant to take that literally!!!

Although i believe we will experience heaven in a place that may very well be pleasing to the senses, it doesn’t make sense to me to think of heaven as being the place in itself. A thing only has meaning, beauty, wonder, and enjoyment, because God is at the root of it; and thus God is the only being that truly fulfills. In recognizing that, we avoid idolatry.

It doesn’t matter if the world is supernatural or natural. A world without salvation is a pointless world. If i exist for Gods amusement and entertainment, then i do not want to exist.

Then they are irresponsible people who obviously take reality for granted. If there is No God, then life is insanity, and i cannot forgive anyone, who is wise in knowledge, for bringing life into it. For once one sees through the fairy tale that people call humanity, we see the harsh reality that we are just things. These things might delude themselves into believing in the good of children, but in reality they are merely following their instinctual desires, their genes, their fashionable ideologies, or even the warm sense of creativity, meaning, glory, authority and parent-hood that one feels when contemplating the making of children. But they are not thinking about the existential needs of the children. They are merely trying to fulfill there own needs by trying to invent and fulfill their own purpose, comfort, and meaning in response to a pointless and purposeless world; and one of the ways we go about doing that is by creating heirs to our thrones. Only a cruel person knowingly brings a child into a world like this and tells them there is no God.

I don’t know what you mean by the goodness of existence? But i know that people appreciate life only in so far as it serves their needs.

I have given my answer plenty of times.

We have hope because of the promise that God gave to us. None of us would believe otherwise. I have never known or cared for the God that does not give us salvation. I cannot love that which i do not believe in. The God you are speaking about is a false God.

I don’t think they do. There is a serious error, and i want to expose it.

I strongly suspect that you do not truly grasp what the saints mean. And even if the saints truly believe that heaven is a place, that doesn’t mean that heaven is truly a place. I am not aware that sainthood is synonymous to infallibility.

Nope. I just get frustrated when people fail to understand me.

: I dont understand i suppose that you believe that purgatory is not a place either? OR HELL?Boy i’d be careful in your assumptions cause you will be denying the word of God,and God is watching you Love of Christ Nancy

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**

Heaven is the goal or end that morality “eternally” points to. A “place” cannot fulfill human beings.

this posts remains on the wrong track, the author insists upon, miles away from what Jesus told us about heaven as a place. Though a place, we cant imagine it’s beauty nor range. “What no eye ever saw and no ear ever heard”. And we all just have to look at John 14,2 to know.
HEAVEN (or even HEAVENS) IS/ARE A PLACE (and not just an idea! )

Some here including me, seem tired of having to explain same thing over and over again, which also can be easily red by anyone in the bible.
**

 

[twb1621]

a few thoughts;

Truely learning who someone is and what they are about takes time. A growing love of that person (true love) is not inspired or based on the quality of their house or what they have to offer in anything other than that part of themself they will share in the relationship.

Heaven, as far as scripture uses the term and as far as theologians have determined is in its basic principle indeed a place and I refer to the most frequent references made in regard to the angels and to judgment. In scripture, anytime the angels are sent somewhere it is always from heaven, therefore it must certainly be a space of sorts in its own existence where souls along with the angels can accumulate and dwell, coexist if you will. This is also taking into consideration that we know our souls are independent of each other and regardless of how we are judged, we are judged independently, and therefore our souls remain independent requiring space to exist independently.
No, we do not know for sure. But it is more than reasonable to accept heaven exists as a space in itself and according to scripture, one with unimaginable beauty and pleasures, causing it to be a place inhabitable by independent souls to be inherited by those faithful (never perfect) to God.

This thread, in bringing such considerations to the forefront of our consciousness, and those who participated in the thread have offered a great deal of insight, which has been the reason for posting it as I believe.

 

[benedictus2]

a few thoughts;

Truely learning who someone is and what they are about takes time. A growing love of that person (true love) is not inspired or based on the quality of their house or what they have to offer in anything other than that part of themself they will share in the relationship.

Heaven, as far as scripture uses the term and as far as theologians have determined is in its basic principle indeed a place and I refer to the most frequent references made in regard to the angels and to judgment. In scripture, anytime the angels are sent somewhere it is always from heaven, therefore it must certainly be a space of sorts in its own existence where souls along with the angels can accumulate and dwell, coexist if you will. This is also taking into consideration that we know our souls are independent of each other and regardless of how we are judged, we are judged independently, and therefore our souls remain independent requiring space to exist independently.
No, we do not know for sure. But it is more than reasonable to accept heaven exists as a space in itself and according to scripture, one with unimaginable beauty and pleasures, causing it to be a place inhabitable by independent souls to be inherited by those faithful (never perfect) to God.

This thread, in bringing such considerations to the forefront of our consciousness, and those who participated in the thread have offered a great deal of insight, which has been the reason for posting it as I believe.

Well Tom, what can I say, you always floor me with your brilliance!
You went in there and just cut through the rabble.

 

[The_Question]

:thumbsup:And we know He has a family there :Ephesians:3:14-15 Love of Christ Nancy

“We love because he first loved us” So it doesn’t really matter. Any love I have was given to me by God. No need to discuss the obvious–it is a fallacious question.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

“We love because he first loved us” So it doesn’t really matter. Any love I have was given to me by God. No need to discuss the obvious–it is a fallacious question.

:DHello There! When you speak of Fallacious: do you refere to assumption or Tending to mislead:deceptive: Any ways it's a Adjective now what is the difference if i used it as a Declarative? I dont believe in heaven but i do (LOVE) God. You could say that is also fallacious? Deceptive,misleading,an assumption? or perhaps a statement(declarative) If there is no heaven would you still LOVE God ? (imparative) Question. According to Webster there is no question that is stupid,it is only stupid if you dont ask. Love of Christ Nancy

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

Hi Nom,

I have explained the nature of WHAT IFs to Bruno, fhansen and Mind over Matter just a few posts above this one.

I would like to ask you to read those.

Secondly, If we cannot love God if there is no heaven or more precisely eternal life, then that means our life here on earth is totally devoid of love since we can only love because God has loved us. If we cannot love God now, just for the gift of life here on earth and for everything that He has done for us here on earth, then that is really sad. Here He has loved and is loving us, and yet factor out eternal life and you say there is no reason to love Him apart from the promise of eternal life.

You didn’t read my posts, otherwise you would not persist in this heresy posing as a “what if” scenario. Did you read my demonstration of St. Paul’s “what if” scenario? You wrote here:

If we cannot love God now, just for the gift of life here on earth and for everything that He has done for us here on earth, then that is really sad.

No, it’s not. Our covenant is heaven. You think that by continuing to call this a “What If” scenario" that it somehow excuses the grave error this question presents. Don’t lecture me on logic. My refutation of you is logical. Calling this a “what if” scenario is a red herring.

I read the other posts. Please read mine. All the way through.

You are a **heretic **if you believe this. Do you not understand the grave error this thread commits? You continue to defend this position. Please stop. Please.

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

The OP’s question “If There Is No Heaven Will You Still Love God” had a specific intent, but it is heretically worded…

So there is a subtext to answering “no” to this question, and that subtext is “Your faith is immature if you can’t love God for who God is and not because you want a reward.” And it is an unfair imposition. The truth is that our reward in this life for believing in Christ is, in many cases, persecution. Many of us serve God as best we can and we live in a society that is overall hostile to our belief.
"Will you still love God if it means that you, too, will be crucified?"
"Will you still love God if it means being persecuted?" Those are better questions.
"Will you still love God if it means that you will lose your $100,000 per year job because your employers are unscrupulous?" These considerations cost us something now, in this life.

Forgive me for quoting myself. I’m about to repost one other thing that was conveniently skipped…

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

12 5 But if Christ is preached as raised from the dead (and thus in Heaven), how can some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead? (when we will go to Heaven) 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead (and going to Heaven), then neither has Christ been raised (and gone to Heaven). 14 And if Christ has not been raised (and gone to Heaven), then empty (too) is our preaching; empty, too, your faith. 15 Then we are also false witnesses to God, because we testified against God that he raised Christ **(to Heaven), **whom he did not raise (to Heaven) if in fact the dead are not raised **(to Heaven). **16 For if the dead are not raised (Ibid), neither has Christ been raised, 17 and if Christ has not been raised, 6 your faith is vain; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished (and thus are not in Heaven). 19 If for this life only (and not going to Heaven) we have hoped in Christ, we are the most pitiable people of all.

I don’t know about you guys, but I count a grand total of 7 “IFs.”

If there is no heaven then Jesus of Nazareth was the anti-christ (F.Sheen) and “we [Christians] are the most pitiable people of all.”

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

Do you not understand the grave error this thread commits? You continue to defend this position. Please stop. Please.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Bruno_Schulz:
Dear Nom The Wise can you show me the grave error this thread is making? It is a question,it is not the end of the world,for that’s happening outside of the question. The question makes you think,makes you use your God given talents (the brain) It is in no manner offensive to God if anything it helps Glorify our Father,it give us peace to know all he has done for us,and how he planned it all just so perfectly.How great thou art! Rejoyce Nom we love you,and i appreciate your feelings towards your heavenly Father and so does he.It’s when you dont believe That’s when it becomes a problem. Love of Christ Nancy Peace!

 

[twb1621]

Well Tom, what can I say, you always floor me with your brilliance!
You went in there and just cut through the rabble.

 

[twb1621]

If there is no heaven then Jesus of Nazareth was the anti-christ (F.Sheen) and “we [Christians] are the most pitiable people of all.”

I hope you are not taking this as in anyway suggesting there is no heaven, are you?

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**all Christianity would be nil - or as St. Paul put it:
And if Christ has not been raised, then empty too is our preaching; empty, too, your faith. 1Cor 15,14
But:
We also know that the Son of God has come and has given us discernment to know the one who is true. And we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.1John 5,20
**

 

[MindOverMatter]

: I dont understand i suppose that you believe that purgatory is not a place either? OR HELL?Boy i’d be careful in your assumptions cause you will be denying the word of God,and God is watching you Love of Christ Nancy

I do not see that any of you have provided me sufficient reason to doubt my faithfulness to God. So unless your gonna show me a papal-bull, i see no reason why i should believe that my arguments are as such that they deny the word of God.

One thing i know to be true, is that “Heaven” is the ultimate fulfillment of our humanity and is absolutely necessary for our fulfillment as living persons. All my reasoning is based upon this one premise.

I also know that only God can fulfill humanity and is absolutely necessary for our fulfillment as living persons, and that no idol can achieve what God is by nature. Thats basically my main answer.

I could be wrong about heaven, just as much as i could be wrong about the existence of God; but what is really relevant is whether or not you truly understand why my reasoning leads me to believe that “God is heaven” and that God cannot exist without Heaven. I don’t think you do understand, because i don’t think you really grasp the reason why there is such a thing as heaven in the first place, or even why Jesus came to die on the cross. My study of Gods nature leads me to believe that the non-existence of heaven at some point is impossible, because that would mean that God could cease to exist or begin to exist. That is why i reject the question of this thread as fallacious.

As for everyone else who have been brazen enough to challenge me, I have explained my reasoning plenty of times through out this thread, and i believe they are sufficiently in line with our theological conception of God. My arguments stem from philosophical reflections on Gods nature. So please, instead of quoting scripture that you don’t understand, perhaps you should challenge my arguments point for point with logic.

This is the philosophy forum.

 

[InMariesGrace]

Jesus never claimed he was ressurected. The disciples of his disciple wrote about a ressurection about 70 years after his death. Jesus would not be the one who was lying.

Just wanted to point that out

Well, I can think of one time He did. It was when Jesus said to [Martha], “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” He said this to Martha right before he made Laserous rise from the dead. “Yes, Lord,” she told him, “I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world.”

And that is what I believe

 

[SimonArizona]

To love God is heaven.

“Mass is heaven on earth.”-JP2

 

[twb1621]

I do not see that any of you have provided me sufficient reason to doubt my faithfulness to God. So unless your gonna show me a papal-bull, i see no reason why i should believe that my arguments are as such that they deny the word of God.

One thing i know to be true, is that “Heaven” is the ultimate fulfillment of our humanity and is absolutely necessary for our fulfillment as living persons. All my reasoning is based upon this one premise.

I also know that only God can fulfill humanity and is absolutely necessary for our fulfillment as living persons, and that no idol can achieve what God is by nature. Thats basically my main answer.

I could be wrong about heaven, just as much as i could be wrong about the existence of God; but what is really relevant is whether or not you truly understand why my reasoning leads me to believe that “God is heaven” and that God cannot exist without Heaven. I don’t think you do understand, because i don’t think you really grasp the reason why there is such a thing as heaven in the first place, or even why Jesus came to die on the cross. My study of Gods nature leads me to believe that the non-existence of heaven at some point is impossible, because that would mean that God could cease to exist or begin to exist. That is why i reject the question of this thread as fallacious.

As for everyone else who have been brazen enough to challenge me, I have explained my reasoning plenty of times through out this thread, and i believe they are sufficiently in line with our theological conception of God. My arguments stem from philosophical reflections on Gods nature. So please, instead of quoting scripture that you don’t understand, perhaps you should challenge my arguments point for point with logic.

This is the philosophy forum.

M.O.M. - with not sarcasm intended, let me ask you to read and I would be interested in your thoughts of the post in the following link. You are not the only person who has had doubts about certain things and many doubts are due to the fact that we as human beings relate most directly to those things that are of a physical nature as we are. Please consider and give your thoughts to the following:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5085728&postcount=480