If There Is No Heaven Will You Still Love God?

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Nom_the_Wise said:
How have so many of you missed the point that we have a** Testament with God**? A covenant? A *New *Testament. Like it or not, a covenant is an agreement: If you do this, I’ll do this. Have you all been so poorly catechized? It breaks my heart further that a Catholic priest actually posed this “what if” as a homily.

It’s a WHAT IF scenario. I get it. If there is No Heaven Will You Still Love God? NO! Absolutely not! Because I *believe *St. Paul when he writes that if Christ is not raised, then we are not raised, then Christ is not the Son of God and his promises were worthless. Fulton Sheen once went on to say that if Christ was not resurrected that Jesus of Nazareth was an anti-christ, for who in history could be said to have fooled so many (The Life of Christ, on sale at bookstores now).

This is Holy Week, isn’t it? How many of you have actually looked at a crucifix and THANKED Christ for dying for us, so that we could all go to Heaven? (You don’t feel so selfish now, do you! You feel horrified, humbled, repentent, ashamed). Thank you Jesus! Now I have hope! You took my sins upon yourself. That should be ME on that cross, but YOU SAVED ME! **We only want to go to Heaven *now ***because Jesus offered it. It wasn’t our idea. Who would have *dared *to ask God to die for us? Who would have thought it were even possible that the infinite God would love us so much? What else did he die for?

This “WHAT IF” scenario spits in the face of the crucified Christ and denies his suffering; not only that, **it has caused believers to consider that God *could ***break his promises (just for fun, of course!). How have so many taken this lightly? It undermines everything we hope for, and everything we suffer for in this life and the Covenant God made with us. It attacks the very foundation of the Church. Think of that stupid book/movie The Da Vinci Code. The great secret that could bring down the Church? Jesus had kids? No. Finding the corpse of Christ would bring down the Church. Of course, for us, we believe the witness of the aposltes; 11 of the 12 all died martyr’s deaths. They *saw *the risen Christ. They *knew with a certainty *that Jesus rose from the dead and was truly the Son of God and thus his word was good.

If there is no heaven there is no need of a crucifixion, no need of redemption.

Normally I’m very sad when I kill a thread, but this time I hope I’ve killed this thread good and dead, no hope for salvation, no heaven, just dead.
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:)I would like you to have a wonderful Easter and think of all of us as your brothers and sisters in Christ reguardless of the subject. It was and is not realy a question of faith but of reality.We are living in the now not in the what if, thank God, and God is not un-realistic. Love of Christ Nancy–Happy EASTER!
 
nancy_dalrymple said:
:)I would like you to have a wonderful Easter and think of all of us as your brothers and sisters in Christ reguardless of the subject. It was and is not realy a question of faith but of reality.We are living in the now not in the what if, thank God, and God is not un-realistic. Love of Christ Nancy–Happy EASTER!
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Did you even *read *my posts? :confused:
 
Posting on this thread is the most *loving *thing I’ve done for the entirety of Lent.😃

If I didn’t love you all, I wouldn’t have spent the last few hours racking my brain about how to best address this. I used a lot of exclamation marks and boldface for effect. I hope you don’t think I’m raving mad or anything. Seriously. I’m actually quite tired and sad. 😦
 
Nom_the_Wise said:
Posting on this thread is the most *loving *thing I’ve done for the entirety of Lent.😃

If I didn’t love you all, I wouldn’t have spent the last few hours racking my brain about how to best address this. I used a lot of exclamation marks and boldface for effect. I hope you don’t think I’m raving mad or anything. Seriously. I’m actually quite tired and sad. 😦
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:)You are loved,alot more then you think and you do a real good job getting your point accross. I think i know how you might feel remember Job:19 read it and when you get to verse 25 there you are. God Bless You always Nancy:thumbsup: Well done!
 
**Well “Nome the Wise” as far as you plead heaven is not a place, you are terribly wrong and not quite as wise as you little nick claims. 😊

God created HEAVEN and earth and all there is.
God didn’t create heaven as “noun”. Hard to believe that all Angels and all Saints live “in a noun” even though Jesus revealed us HEAVEN many times. But well, you let Jesus go into a noun an the Ascension of Christ.

It’s your problem, that you refuse to understand. I don’t know why you put yourself out on this.

Just believe what you might. It surely doesn’t make any difference to heaven. You will see.

By the way: If it makes you happy to make people down, just go on. You wrote sarcastically: “What were your grades in English class?”

Oh, to tell you the truth, I never learned English in any school, but in a one year stay in a factory in 1957 in England as simple working class bloke. But well - then we weren’t allowed to speak whilst working, so probably I didn’t get all of your great language 😃
**
By the way - I happen to know what a noun is - the customs officer told me the day I left England 1 year later. Let’s hope we meet one day in this noun 😃
the one who was wrong then, spends a gottle of geer then (to me of course 😃 )
 
Bruno_Schulz said:
**Well “Nome the Wise” as far as you plead heaven is not a place, you are terribly wrong and not quite as wise as you little nick claims. 😊

God created HEAVEN and earth and all there is.
God didn’t create heaven as “noun”. Hard to believe that all Angels and all Saints live “in a noun” even though Jesus revealed us HEAVEN many times. But well, you let Jesus go into a noun an the Ascension of Christ.

It’s your problem, that you refuse to understand. I don’t know why you put yourself out on this.

Just believe what you might. It surely doesn’t make any difference to heaven. You will see.

By the way: If it makes you happy to make people down, just go on. You wrote sarcastically: “What were your grades in English class?”

Oh, to tell you the truth, I never learned English in any school, but in a one year stay in a factory in 1957 in England as simple working class bloke. But well - then we weren’t allowed to speak whilst working, so probably I didn’t get all of your great language 😃
**
By the way - I happen to know what a noun is - the customs officer told me the day I left England 1 year later. Let’s hope we meet one day in this noun 😃
the one who was wrong then, spends a gottle of geer then (to me of course 😃 )
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Bruno,

**I thought I was defending you (only in reference to Heaven being a “place.” I was *refuting *you about your position that Jesus doesn’t use metaphor). I didn’t mean “What were your grades in English class” sarcastically. I *taught *English at both the high school and college level; it was a serious question, though I understand that it could have come off as condescending. Writing in an on-line forum (and writing in general), we miss out on non-verbal cues (like facial expressions, tone of voice, body posture) that “color” what we say as much as our words do. Why do you think the emoticons were invented. They provide non-verbal “support” as it were to what we’ve written. It’s all very fascinating if you think about it. If someone writes “I could KILL you!” and then puts one of these 😃 after it, then the reader gets to imagine that the writer doesn’t really wish the other person to die. Only about 7% of human communication is verbal; the other 93% is perceived by non-verbal cues. But that’s an entirely different matter…

I have a Master’s degree in writing (in English). My only real experience in German is the song “Schnitzelbank.” 😃 My posts were designed (albeit somewhat on the fly) to make everyone consider how *very serious *of an error this question really is, and I didn’t mince words either, but if I were speaking it, you would not get the impression that I hated anyone. You really wouldn’t. I’m a talented orator as well, if I do say so myself 😊. You see, the blush says “I’m humble.” 😃

We must believe that Heaven is place. Of course. I wasn’t refuting that. But it cannot be a place in the way you and I imagine a place, with floors, doors, windows and a ceiling. I have to believe it is a language barrier that keeps us from seeing eye to eye, as you have admitted.

There can be no refutation that Jesus used figurative language to get many of his points across. There really can’t. It’s a fact.
 
**So you finally agree to HAVEN WAS NEVER METAPHOR
but heaven is a place as Jesus told us. Great! What a relief …

I always taught those who asked me in many German-speaking forums, and beginning June ‘08 in CAF too, that Jesus of course told us many metaphors, but this just for one reason only; to make - what He told us, more understandable, comprehensive for us - who often simply refuse to understand.

A dear friend of ours, member of this forum, wrote this to me to the matter:

“You might remind the “wise” that Jesus ascended BODILY to Heaven. After His resurrection, he allowed Thomas to feel his wounds. He ate with the apostles. So, Jesus is in Heaven in His resurrected body. He did not ascend only in spirit. Spirits don’t have bodies, or eat. So, heaven is a place, not a concept, a thought, an allegory, simile, or parable. It is a PLACE! And, Jesus’ resurrected body is there, at His Father’s right hand.“

Now, SMILEY and EMOTICON in fact are a disgrace! They kill good language. The whole internet does. It reduces language on signs and signals.

Just imagine Hemmingway, Mark Twain, Goethe or Shakespeare using smilies. They used language instead – and where well understood.

Imagine the Holy Bible using smiley and emoticon in the gospel…

In funny mails they are ok and sustainable, but they never should replace language 😃 :o 👍 😛 - language is suffering anyhow ever since e-mail arrived :mad:
But when an old man like me sas so - he’s hopelessly old fashioned 😊

Though heaven is a place. We – just as well as we are not allowed to picture God, shouldn’t (and I never did) imagine heaven in worldly habits.
**
 
why is that most uncomfortable command: Edit within 20 min only!
The administrator has specified that you can only edit messages for 20 minutes after you have posted. This limit has expired, so you must contact the administrator to make alterations on your message.

In my late forum - we gave it up after 5 years of running (and we always left just the last 10-15 posts
every author could edid even after years:
Gott-Kirche-Glaube.isthier.de
 
Bruno_Schulz said:
**So you finally agree to HAVEN WAS NEVER METAPHOR
but heaven is a place as Jesus told us. Great! What a relief …

“You might remind the “wise” that Jesus ascended BODILY to Heaven. After His resurrection, he allowed Thomas to feel his wounds. He ate with the apostles. So, Jesus is in Heaven in His resurrected body. He did not ascend only in spirit. Spirits don’t have bodies, or eat. So, heaven is a place, not a concept, a thought, an allegory, simile, or parable. It is a PLACE! And, Jesus’ resurrected body is there, at His Father’s right hand.“

Now, SMILEY and EMOTICON in fact are a disgrace! They kill good language. The whole internet does. It reduces language on signs and signals.
**
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My screen name is “Nom the Wise” taken from a **German band **called “Blind Guardian.” I reference the quote in my signature, and the album it came from. I don’t claim to be “wise.” I wanted a screen name with a reference to Tolkien, but all the names I wanted were already taken. So many people have said “So perhaps you are not so wise as you claim, Nom the Wise!” I thought that by putting in the quote to the actual piece where my name comes from in my signature itself that people would stop thinking that I’m calling myself wise. I’m not wise. I subscribe to the tenants of the Vatican II document “God I am a spaz.” (a.k.a. Gaudium et Spes) 😃

I don’t think emoticons are a “disgrace” exactly. I think they arose from our need to see the faces of the people that we are speaking with. When writing to each other, we miss out on facial expressions which are as important as the words we say. We read each other’s faces for clues about how our speech is being received. This is far off topic for this thread, but overall I’m glad our miscommunication is at an end. To get back on topic…

**I never said that Heaven is a metaphor. Somewhere there was a miscommunication, and I’m not sure where that happened. Of course Jesus was raised bodily as your friend points out, and even St. Paul says that at our resurrection (so long as we persevere) that we, too, will have resurrected bodies. I said that Jesus used metaphors to help us understand Heaven, which is abstract *to us *because we’ve never been there. I have never been to Germany. On some level, even Germany is abstract to me, and I would need pictures, a map and perhaps some similies, metaphors, etc. A friend of mine could say “Germany is Heaven because they brew such wonderful beer!” You see? But I would have to trust the first-hand accounts of my friend whom has been to Germany, just as we had to trust Jesus’ metaphors of Heaven to help us understand in some small way this place where Jesus had been, but we have not (but will be by God’s grace), which we must believe is beyond our finite capability to comprehend. Being that we will have resurrected “bodies” a body occupies space and that space must then necessarily be a “place.”
 
It’s been a couple of days since I posted my scathing indictment of this thread (which I don’t take back) but since I haven’t been rebutted yet, I have the opportunity to clarify something else so that no one thinks that I’m playing “holier than thou.”

The OP’s question “If There Is No Heaven Will You Still Love God” had a specific intent, but it is heretically worded. It is designed to make us consider the parameters of our relationship with God. To love out of fear of punishment is not love at all which has been pointed out on several previous posts. But it is (can be) the first step to love. I fear losing the love that has been given to me. I want the love. I don’t want to do anything to jeopardize that love. Little children react out of fear of losing their parent’s love when they do something wrong and they are scolded. They want their parents’ love. We want Our Father’s love.

So there is a subtext to answering “no” to this question, and that subtext is “Your faith is immature if you can’t love God for who God is and not because you want a reward.” And it is an unfair imposition. The truth is that our reward in this life for believing in Christ is, in many cases, persecution. Many of us serve God as best we can and we live in a society that is overall hostile to our belief.
"Will you still love God if it means that you, too, will be crucified?"
"Will you still love God if it means being persecuted?" Those are better questions.
"Will you still love God if it means that you will lose your $100,000 per year job because your employers are unscrupulous?" These considerations cost us something now, in this life.

I lost my college teaching job (I was an adjunct, and thus NOT making $100,000) because I had the son of one of my college administrator’s in one of my classes. The student didn’t turn in work and was absent much of the time, but the college administrator tried to force me to pass him. I didn’t and I lost my job (and yes I did try to sue but lawyers fees would have been more than my settlement so I had to let it go). Many have told me that I was crazy, that my beliefs cost me my career. But my love of Christ wouldn’t let me do it. I knew the consequences for my actions. I made a hard choice and didn’t make a compromise. I have a son, though my wife has since left me, but even as a family man I couldn’t betray my God. Despite the resulting hardships I am working in security and God hasn’t abandoned me. I’m not patting myself on the back (who would) but I’ve known many that have made compromises about their faith only for money.

But to say “If There Is No Heaven Will You Still Love God?” is heretical not only because of the reasons I mentioned in previous posts, but also because I was able to make this decision not to give in to the temptation of money, career and prestige BECAUSE OF THE PROMISE OF HEAVEN. Otherwise, I was a fool to lose my career (I’m still trying to break back into teaching but I don’t have any references now). I so easily could have passed the kid. It would have taken one small pencil mark coloring the “A” circle on his scantron grade sheet. How easy is that? But because I believe God will hold up His end of our Covenant, our Testament, I am able to stay faithful. I did fear losing my job but I feared losing the love of God even more. Would any of you call me selfish? Immature? Does my faith need strengthening?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=325667
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5049070

These are links to my other threads if anyone wants to commiserate with me. I’m not saying that I haven’t been in anguish over what has happened, but in my pain I’ve turned to this Catholic community on-line. God is still with me, though I am not perfect and I worried that my previous posts on this thread might make some think that I’m bringing down “fire and brimstone” on you all. But this question wounded me somehow. **I need there to be Heaven and thanks to Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection, which we remember today on Good Friday, there is one. Living a life in accordance to the Gospel is not in vain, and Heaven is our ultimate reward.
 
nancy_dalrymple said:
:)I would like you to have a wonderful Easter and think of all of us as your brothers and sisters in Christ reguardless of the subject. It was and is not realy a question of faith but of reality.We are living in the now not in the what if, thank God, and God is not un-realistic. Love of Christ Nancy–Happy EASTER!
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Is my previous post enough “reality” for you? How is this not a question of faith?

Happy Triduum everyone! After several delays I am moving today and I unite my suffering with that of Christ, if only in a small way. I won’t be back on-line for a couple of days at least, so if rebuttals start flying in it will take me some time to reply.
 
kesa82 said:
You have to be pleased. Here is a purely theological thread that has almost gone to 30 pages. And doubtless will before it is done. 😃
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Here we are on page 30. You were right kesa82.

And to be fair to the OP, for a while there I thought you were a girl, too. 😃 I was even beginning to have an on-line crush on you…😊
 
My posts are ENORMOUS! 😃

In the future, can we obey the Forum Rules and not quote the entire post? Doesn’t it cost CAF money to maintain this forum?

Quote in strategic snippets. 👍

Okay, I’m going to go pick up the rental truck now. I’m procrastinating.
 
I am on verge of losing my faith. Can anyone convince me that religion is genuine and that these events really happened?
 
once again it’s very interesting thread and i won’t miss any of the posts. Learn so much which I realize that each person has their own and special relationship with God. We can’t compare their relationship with our own.
God bless and have wonderful easter to all of you
 
**
lawdgawd said:
I am on verge of losing my faith. Can anyone convince me that religion is genuine and that these events really happened?
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This thread is not the right one to answer your questions. Here something else is asked.
But there are a lot of threads that cover and answer your question.
I’d suggest for one
“Why we believe in God”
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=323756&goto=newpost
Just ask there and you’ll be answered in a loving way.

I’d also love to answer you whatever question in private mail too. [edited]**
 
This is Love Bruno Schulz,

Vater unser im Himmel,geheiligt werde dein Name:dein Reich komme: dein Wille geschehe, wie im Himmel so auf Erden.
Unser tagliches Brot gib uns heute. Und vergib uns unsere Schuld, wie auch wir vergeben unsern Schuldigern: und fuhre uns nicht in Versuchung, sondern erlose uns von dem Bosen.
Denn dein ist das Reich und die Kraft und die Herrlichkeit in Ewigkeit.
Amen! Love of Christ Nancy
 
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