If There Is No Heaven Will You Still Love God?

[benedictus2]

Yes.
Short thread that.

When I was in 6th grade I fell in love with a girl at school. Except many people wouldn’t even call it love. I never spoke to her, I never spent time with her, I know very little about her. it is no exaggeration to say that I know benedictus2 better than I knew her. maybe I won’t see her in heaven either. Her picture has sat on my desk 25 years. ( I copied it out of the yearbook. She didn’t give me her picture ) 9 out of 10 people think that is wierd, if not downright deviant. The sum of their objections seem to be, " …and the point ( i.e. the purpose ) of this prolonged obsession is…? "

I’d be the last person to say that is just obession. I have read many stories where it actually comes good in the end. As a matter of fact I know this man was in love with someone but ended marrrying someone else. Then his wife passed away and after 20 years caught up again with his old love on the other side of the world and it turned out that she never married. So now they are happily married. Maybe they have passed the the so called first flush of love but they are very happy.

To hope for a happiness on this earth is not unreasonable.

The funny thing is that many of these people who look askance at this apparent pointless , motive-less, directionless, love,
are the SAME people who assert that to love God just because he is God is the highest virtue, the alpha and omega, the beginning and end, existence entire.

But some people assert that they love God because they really know deep in their gut that they are loved.

There is another member of this forum who wrote about his conversion. He was born Catholic then became atheist. Then one night he was woken by a feeling and a sound and this voice said to him “I love you” and he said that he felt the most immense love then. He came back to the Church after that.

That is why what I pray for most is that people will realize that God truly loves them. That realization is life changing.

You bet it confuses me. You bet their thinking and motives confuse me.

They exalt altruism. well fudge, this girl I’m talking about isn’t even a God, a celebrity, a loved one, a friend, an acquaintance. So I guess my altruism must trump theirs huh?

I am not one to sneer at that at all becuase I happen to be in the same boat. I have even prayed that I will stop loving this man who takes no notice of me but nope it is still there. I have often wondered why that happens and have no answer. But this is one poverty I have to accept. The poverty of answers.

What get’s me through is the thought that I am probably in love with him because I do not know him all that well.

Nope, it only counts if its a God.

Nope. Not only with God. The only difference is that with God, we do not love iin vain because God loved us first.

Whatever.
I cannot treat this question with emotional neutrality, and I have not been charitable. So I bow out. We must agree to disagree.
Good day. :tiphat:

That’s all cool. I get too emotional over stuff myself. But that is all part and parcel of being human. Over emotional is preferable to being an ice-man.

 

[CarmeliteGirl25]

Peace of Christ to everyone who visits this thread!

A priest once gave this one liner homily (can’t remember now what the readings were) for the faithful to ponder upon.

I have asked the same question of a few friends and got some good and some quite angry reactions. One said the question was stupid.

The question of course is purely hypothetical and every Christian knows there is a heaven.

But hypothetically, if there is no heaven, if this life here on earth is the only life that God is giving us, would you still love God and follow His commands?

Looking forward to some interesting responses.

It’s funny. I had the same talk with my uncle last year around this same time. He and I both agree that if it turned out that when we died, there was no heaven, we’d both still obey the commandments. It wouldn’t matter anyway, but we’d never know the difference since our souls ceased to exist.

 

[benedictus2]

**Oh man. Why don’t you just lean back, have a glass of wine and relax:thumbsup: **

---

Good idea. That should give me a good night’s sleep. On second thoughts I better save that bottle for Easter Sunday.

It’s not at all hard to understand.
Kids keep asking “WHAT IF…”.

We can never really say what would be, how should we react and so on, if things where different from how they are.

Let’s just be happy that there is Gods heaven and we are promised that heaven and we will meet in that heaven, which is the original kingdom of God.

**Why should we worry about a silly question like WHAT IF (there’d be no heaven - no USA - no world - no sun) and all these useless questions. **

Because for me and obviously for the priest who asked this question first it is not silly at all.

I have known what it is like to be lost and be found by the Hound of Heaven. He has given me a glimpse of the utter tenderness with which He loves me. And I am sure He loves everyone the same.

One time, I was at a retreat and I was telling this group about a spiritual experience I had and the nun asked me “So what do you do then?” And I said,“What else can I do but to say " I love you” back."

And I am sure if you ask St Therese and St Teresa and St John of the Cross they won’t think so either. Okay, i shold make a point to ask them all tonight.

God created heaven and earth and angels and humans.
**Let’s be thankful for this. **
**We didn’t even understand the very being of all that is. So why quarrel about if this would not be. **

This is not quarreling, this is what I would call a heated discussion.

**
**Relax my friend – just relax and have a wonderful Palm Sunday **
**
Palm Sunday is almost over now here. A few hours and we enter Holy Week.

May meditating on the Passion of Christ help us all grow in awareness of the immense love that God has for us. To know that is heaven:heaven:

 

[benedictus2]

It’s funny. I had the same talk with my uncle last year around this same time. He and I both agree that if it turned out that when we died, there was no heaven, we’d both still obey the commandments. It wouldn’t matter anyway, but we’d never know the difference since our souls ceased to exist.

Hmmm, would your uncle happen to be a Blessed Sacrament priest?

 

[MindOverMatter]

That is a very utilitarian view of God. So I think you have answered the question. You love God only because of what He can do for you. But growth in faith and loveis precisely the elimination of this self centredness.

Desire. Everybody approaches God in this manner. I’m am humble enough to admit that i am imperfect and a sinner. And it is the recognition that we are sinners that enables us to accept Gods eternal gift of love. To say you love God for no reason, as if to mean that you are good, as if you are the source of that goodness, is irrational and an arrogant lie. Nobody is good accept for God. It is in our nature to desire that which perfects us, and it is God whom perfects us with his nature; not ours.

The truth hurts. But its still the truth.

Very well said, and this goes to the heart of the matter. THat when God pefects us, we are able to love HIM for HIMSELF alone, regardless of reward. This is quite evident in what St John of the Cross calls the Dark Night of the Soul.

Precisely.

It all depends on how you define heaven.

Heaven is that which eternally flows from Gods goodness. Heaven is an eternal relationship with God. There is no other way to define it.

Not quite correct. God loves us because God is love. His nature is Love. God’s loving us does not depend on the existence of heaven.

You do not understand the nature of God. Heaven is a natural expression of love. It is a natural expression of Gods eternal love for us. The two cannot be separated or teased apart.

TRUE. But you cannot say that if God did not take us to Heaven then God does not love us.

Yes i can. Heaven is an eternal expression of Gods nature. Eternal Heaven is the completion and the fulfillment of the human being. It is the natural desire of humanity to be perfectly and eternally happy. We cannot be complete, happy, or fulfilled with out heaven. If God, being the nature of love, does not desire these things for us, then God is an impostor. God is not love. And we are lost.
You cannot section the concept of heaven apart form Gods nature. A clear understanding of theology and the metaphysics of God ought to reveal this to you.

No it is not logically invalid

Yes it is.
benedictus2;5036817:

because as I have show above you have made a few erroneous assumptions and reasonings in your post above.

I have made no assumptions. Rather i have made valid logical deductions based on the concept of a perfect first cause. My arguments are manifestations of metaphysical logic. Nothing less.

Not quite true. St Therese of Lissieux stated as much. And I think all the saints would say the same thing because for them God is All.

Yes; God is all that is Good. And as such, i cannot accept your view of things.

You have to be more precise with your definitions. What do you mean by good? I can think of a lot of “goods” that do not save.

True love. God is love. God would eternally desire human nature to be complete. That means being in an eternal relationship with God. Good is eternal. Hence we are destined to be eternal.

Why do you not understand these things?

God bless.

 

[benedictus2]

Desire. Everybody approaches God in this manner. I’m am humble enough to admit that i am imperfect and a sinner. And it is the recognition that we are sinners that enables us to accept Gods eternal gift of love. To say you love God for no reason, as if to mean that you are good, as if you are the source of that goodness, is irrational and an arrogant lie. Nobody is good accept for God. It is in our nature to desire that which perfects us, and it is God whom perfects us with his nature; not ours.

The truth hurts. But its still the truth.

This is just a quick reply as I am about through with my lunch break.

To love God for Himself is NOT to love God for no reason. Let’s get that one straight. It is knowing deep in your gut that He loves you. You are loving Him back because He loved you first. That is not loving Him for no reason.

Let’s take those children in Sudan whose mothers cannot give them anything at all. They know that there will be no food, no shelter and yet they are aware of their mother’s love. So they love their mother’s back.

When you know you are truly loved, you love the person back.

So, even taking heaven out of equation, God has already loved us on this earth. Is that not reason enough to love Him?

And it is not loving Him by ourselves either. We are able to do that because He loved us first.

 

[TheAtheist]

Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

Else-if there be no resurrection.

what shall they do?-How wretched is their lot!

Paul of Tarsus, 1 Corinthians 15:18 and 29

 

[Daedelus76]

In Christianity, compassion is an aspect of LOVE. Compassion (com=with + pati =to suffer) means to suffer with. When you truly love someone, you are willing to suffer with them. That is why Christianity is the true religion of compassion because here we have the God who suffered with us.

Well, I haven’t always encountered that in the past. I had an experience with Protestant fundamenatlism in the past as a teenager, thinking that was the true religion, and my experience is it can be very little about compassion and alot about self-righteousness because Jesus has covered you in his blood so anything you do doesn’t matter.

Another thing, I’ve been a vegetarian for years and people would always bug me about my choice. I love animals and don’t like eating them. I don’t condemn people who do but it’s just my choice. People would tell me what I was doing was “unbiblical”.

I used to say bodhisattva vows every day. That is compassion to me, to try and help other people and not just think about myself. Maybe it isn’t as good as Christianity, though, I admit that. It is something I am thinking about. If you want to be a good person and help people, perhaps you should be on the winning team maybe. I’d like to get involved in charity work and things like that. In the past I have lived a very selfish life.

I’ve been visiting an Anglican church (it’s actually Episcopalian, but it’s in schism with the Episcopalians), and I’ve visited an Orthodox church once (I didn’t like it, the priest seemed like something out of the middle ages). I’m not sure exactly what I believe yet but I sing the hymns and pray, I think I feel something going on but I’d be hesitant to say what. I can’t be a fundamentalist anymore about religion, believe that the Bible and things are inerrant or infallible. I do reserve the right to my conscience and thinking and experiencing things carefully. I do think God is a credible explanation for the universe, though, based on cosmology and philosophy. I’ve also had some mystical experiences but I think it’s a good idea to keep those private, suffice it to say I don’t think the “God experience” is automaticly unique to a religion, though perhaps religions do shape how, what you experience and what it does to you (I’m not trying to say that all religions are the same, merely that perhaps God is beyond one religion).

 

[benedictus2]

Well, I haven’t always encountered that in the past. I had an experience with Protestant fundamenatlism in the past as a teenager, thinking that was the true religion, and my experience is it can be very little about compassion and alot about self-righteousness because Jesus has covered you in his blood so anything you do doesn’t matter.

That is what irks me about protestant fundamentalism as well. Their doctrine on salvation is so deficient.Specififically OSAS. Salvation is not about being covered with Jesus blood so you pass through the pearly gates. The Catholic doctrine is that Jesus’s life, death and ressurection purchased for us the graces needed to be a new person. A new person is not merely covered with Jesus blood, he actually becomes one with Jesus. He is made clean, transformed, so that he becomes like Christ. And like Christ he is able to love and this love is manifested in the works of mercy and compassion.

Another thing, I’ve been a vegetarian for years and people would always bug me about my choice. I love animals and don’t like eating them. I don’t condemn people who do but it’s just my choice. People would tell me what I was doing was “unbiblical”.

That is a strange accusation. And I suppose those who tell you that also eat pork. I personally think that if you can stick to vegetarianism that is good. I myself will find that extremely difficult. I lasted all of one day.

I used to say bodhisattva vows every day. That is compassion to me, to try and help other people and not just think about myself. Maybe it isn’t as good as Christianity, though, I admit that. It is something I am thinking about. If you want to be a good person and help people, perhaps you should be on the winning team maybe.

Helping people does not mean you have to be on the winning team. The smallest thing we do if done with love counts for much. In the parable of the Widow’s mite, Jesus gives a very good illustration of this. When we give from our want counts for more than what we give from our plenty.

I would also like to make another note on compassion. By it’s very root, compassion is not merely an outward giving as in charity. It can sometimes as simple as suffering with someone. Sometimes there are situations when we cannot help at all and all we can do is suffer with that person and pray for God to be with them in their suffering.

I’d like to get involved in charity work and things like that. In the past I have lived a very selfish life.

This is a certain sign that God is drawing you to himself for one of the first movements in spiritual growth is a moving away from looking at the mirror moving to the window instead.

I’ve been visiting an Anglican church (it’s actually Episcopalian, but it’s in schism with the Episcopalians), and I’ve visited an Orthodox church once (I didn’t like it, the priest seemed like something out of the middle ages). I’m not sure exactly what I believe yet but I sing the hymns and pray, I think I feel something going on but I’d be hesitant to say what. I can’t be a fundamentalist anymore about religion, believe that the Bible and things are inerrant or infallible.

Stick around CAF. The Bible is truly the word of God and it is inerrant but to come to a realization of that truth is a long process unless there is some sort of miraculous intervention.

I do reserve the right to my conscience and thinking and experiencing things carefully.

We must remember though that our consciences are not formed in a vacuum so we need to develop a good conscience. Debates on moral theology helps sort out these issues.

I do think God is a credible explanation for the universe, though, based on cosmology and philosophy. I’ve also had some mystical experiences but I think it’s a good idea to keep those private, suffice it to say I don’t think the “God experience” is automaticly unique to a religion,

You are right. For the simple reason that we are all creatures of God then “experiencing” Him is universal.

though perhaps religions do shape how, what you experience and what it does to you (I’m not trying to say that all religions are the same, merely that perhaps God is beyond one religion).

God is beyond one religion in the sense that all religions is some sort of an attempt to explain the whys and hows of creation. But whereas all other religions are man’s attempt to ascend to God ( mans attempt to fathom God) Christianity is different in that here, it is God who descends and seeks man.

Whereas the Hindu, Buddhist etc all try to ascend to God by all these techniques.

In Christianity it is God Himself who comes down and becomes Man so that man can become like gods.

 

[MindOverMatter]

To love God for Himself

You have come to love God because you benefit from Gods Love. Because God is love, and we know of that love because we have been given revelatory knowledge of that which ultimately fulfills our needs and makes us happy as human beings. Heaven; the eternal expression of Gods love. You cannot escape the reality that our search and acquisition of God is based on fulfilling our natural and personal desire to be perfectly happy. And there is nothing wrong with that. I just want you to admit it.

The idea that we would love God if their were no heaven, is simply oblivious of the intimate and eternal connection between love and heaven.

God is heaven, for God is the root of our happiness.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**

Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.1 Corinthians 15:18 and 29

Very typical to atheists is this sample quoted.
Here one of this darlings again as usual took a biblical verse completely out of its context, and present it as prove for their disbelieve. Instead it proves their disability to comprehend things.

St. Paul in the mentioned verses said just this too, but he of course went on in 1 Cor 20: But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

and in 1Cor 15,44: It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body!

Don’t listen to dull people who refuse to know a thing about God and therefore won’t be allowed to believe.

1Cor 15,34: Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God - I say this to your shame!

**

 

[benedictus2]

Precisely.

So therefore you are agreeing with me that it is possible to love God for Himself alone?

Heaven is that which eternally flows from Gods goodness.

That is your definition but I am not sure that you can define heaven as such.

Heaven is an eternal relationship with God. There is no other way to define it.

Voila!! And since this time on earth is a fraction of Eternity therefore we have already shared in a relationship with God (even if only a speck of time in that eternity)
So therefore, if we have been able to share a relationship with God, we have also experienced His love in the many and varied ways He has expressed it.
And if we have experienced it in many and varied ways THERE IS THEREFORE ENOUGH REASON TO LOVE HIM NOW FOR THAT ALONE, EVEN IF for the rest of eternity there is not existence for us.

You do not understand the nature of God. Heaven is a natural expression of love. It is a natural expression of Gods eternal love for us. The two cannot be separated or teased apart.

I understand the nature of God. But you don’t understand the point of this thread. THIS IS A WHAT IF.
As I have said before, others get it. Take a look at post no 8 by Numinous and then his post No. 10.

Yes i can. Heaven is an eternal expression of Gods nature. Eternal Heaven is the completion and the fulfillment of the human being. It is the natural desire of humanity to be perfectly and eternally happy. We cannot be complete, happy, or fulfilled with out heaven.

Since we are not yet in “heaven” you are saying that we are unable to find any joy or any sense of fulfillment here on earth at all? Is life here really that miserable?

If God, being the nature of love, does not desire these things for us, then God is an impostor. God is not love. And we are lost.

Are you saying that after giving you life on this earth, and showering you with blessings on this earth, so that you will experience love on this earth, after doing all that, if God decides to end your life in oblivion that means He did not love you into existence and He did not love you on this earth at all?
Well then, what did He create you and shower you with blessing for if not for out of love for you?

You cannot section the concept of heaven apart form Gods nature. A clear understanding of theology and the metaphysics of God ought to reveal this to you.

Well I don’t think your definition of heaven is quite Church teaching. God is the Alpha and Omega. He is the source of all beings.
Let me put it this way. Let us say you are God and I am your creature. Heaven would be when I am united to you. Where you to decide wave your magic wand and make me disappear, there would be no more heaven (which would be my state of being with you) but YOU would still be there. You are independent of my being with you.

Yes it is.

Only because you fail to grasp the what if. As I have said, before saints get this. Other posters get this.

I have made no assumptions. Rather i have made valid logical deductions based on the concept of a perfect first cause. My arguments are manifestations of metaphysical logic. Nothing less.

You are right your conclusions follow from the first cause. But the issue being debated here is NOT THE FIRST CAUSE.
You have made a nice neat logical argument on a topic which is not in question at all.

The topic of this thread is HYPOTHETICAL a WHAT IF.

Yes; God is all that is Good. And as such, i cannot accept your view of things.

This is really frustrating. This is not my view of things. DO YOU STILL NOT GET IT?** This is a what if**. Maaan why is that so hard to understand.

True love. God is love. God would eternally desire human nature to be complete. That means being in an eternal relationship with God. Good is eternal. Hence we are destined to be eternal.

And true love is love that does not seek a reward!

Why do you not understand these things?

But it is you who just do not get it. And I cannot understand why you don’t get it when you are Catholic and we recite that often enough in the act of contrition:
that we are sorry not so much because we fear hell, NOT SO MUCH BECAUSE WE DREAD THE LOSS OF HEAVEN, BUT BECAUSE WE HAVE OFFENDED GOD WHO IS ALL GOOD AND DESERVING OF OUR LOVE.”

That statement alone from the act of contritioin proves that this question is indeed valid. But then you probably think that prayer is invalid as well.

Seriously. This is a philosophical forum not so much a theological one.

Or do you not understand what WHAT IF questions are about.

 

[fhansen]

People were created for heaven. They were designed by their Creator to covet it as a good. This is why the “what if” question makes no sense-we’re not built to live temporarily. And people who haven’t been blest in this life but rather have had to endure horrific experiences often cling to the one hope and promise that the next life will be worth living-and make up for it all.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**Heaven is reality! Reality doesn’t allow the question “what about if it wouldn’t be”.
Jesus himself described and characterized heaven in Mat 5,12, Mat 5,16, Mat 5,45, Mat 6,1, and He spoke about his father in Heaven in the Lords prayer Mat 6,9 and very many others. To the thug on his left on the cross Jesus said in Lk 23,43: “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Jesus painted following picture for us to make heaven understood in John 14,2:
“In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.”

St. Paul wrote in 1Cor 2,9: it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him”
**

 

[twb1621]

Before His passion and Death,
Jesus did not say "I will accept suffering torture, humiliation and being crucified for you if you will accept me and love me and live by my teachings”.

Nor should it be our position to accept Him, Love Him or live by His teachings for what we may or will receive, but rather for what He has done in His love for us. Just as God exists and is eternal, so too does heaven. But truly loving Him should come with no conditions anymore than His accepting crucifixion without our fulfillment of prior conditions.

 

[TheAtheist]

**

Very typical to atheists is this sample quoted.
Here one of this darlings again as usual took a biblical verse completely out of its context, and present it as prove for their disbelieve. Instead it proves their disability to comprehend things.

St. Paul in the mentioned verses said just this too, but he of course went on in 1 Cor 20: But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

and in 1Cor 15,44: It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body!

Don’t listen to dull people who refuse to know a thing about God and therefore won’t be allowed to believe.

1Cor 15,34: Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God - I say this to your shame!

**

Bruno you missed the point. Benedictus asked a hypothetical about if there was no Heaven would one still love God?

If this life is the last bit of interaction we have with a being on the scale and magnitude as the one you posit - heck even in my last moments i’d raise a glass to him/her/it. If i am to be simply dust and ashes (following Benedictus’ hypothetical) and my life had an author i’ll give him his credit.

But then again I have lived a very happy life up to this point - no major regrets, no major complaints. Presuming i don’t die a violent or painful death, i take the position of Socrates in saying that all i’m prepared for is a long peaceful eternal slumber.

But can the same be said for everyone? What about those who have undergone much pain or torture in life?

Do you know what the smell of burning flesh is like when aid workers have to torch your whole family because they and the rest of your surrounding villages died of yellow fever?

How about being raped to the point your sphincter muscles can no longer hold -forcing one to constantly go to the bathroom and being alienated by your society because of it?

I never had to of course - but i’ve met and dealt with such people. Some are very, very, very bitter at your God.

Some keep the faith - but expect a Heaven after what they’ve gone through. Otherwise what’s the point?

To the major question: “If there is no Heaven, will you Still Love God?”

That’s dependent on the life you’ve lead.

Even the testing angel remarked to God in the beginning of the Book of Job that of course one can brag about the piety of Job - for only good has been done unto him.

Now what about someone whose been put through the ringer eh?

That’s the true test.

EDIT: I often see the piety of people, or the disavowals of faith from others and i often shrug. For it is easy for some to praise or reject the idea of God given their circumstances.

It is only when they are under duress do i see the true nature of things. When a man (supposedly) without faith breaks down and cries out to the Heavens, or one who had faith (supposedly) acts in a manner discordant with that idea.

It is when these people have been tossed into the fire, can one truly know their minds.

Otherwise, it is simply preening and self-congratulating posturing.

 

[mackenzie3]

God created me and I love Him for giving me this life. It may not be a great life for some but that could be another discussion entirely. Why is it that one would need more than life? Why do I need a promise of more to love? How ungrateful could I be?! I am thankful to God for giving me THIS life and the chances that I have to live it as I wish. That in itself is a gift and worth love. Of course I want there to be more after this but taking this as a hypothetical as it was intended, my answer is simply YES!

 

[twb1621]

God created me and I love Him for giving me this life. It may not be a great life for some but that could be another discussion entirely. Why is it that one would need more than life? Why do I need a promise of more to love? How ungrateful could I be?! I am thankful to God for giving me THIS life and the chances that I have to live it as I wish. That in itself is a gift and worth love. Of course I want there to be more after this but taking this as a hypothetical as it was intended, my answer is simply YES!

Nicely spoken…

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**

pain, torture, burning flesh, aid workers, raped, being alienated by your society because of it; Some are very, very, very bitter at your God.

Atheist, you missed the point, as you seem to blame God for mans failure – not Gods failure who is YOUR God too. But then atheists always miss the point.

You’ll raise your glass to God in your last moments you say? You’d better do so now – for then, you’d better raise your glass to Lucifer who’ll welcome you – not for a eternal slumber.
Sokrates didn’t know – you do **

 

[MindOverMatter]

So therefore you are agreeing with me that it is possible to love God for Himself alone?

My agreement depends on what you mean.

That is your definition but I am not sure that you can define heaven as such.

God is the source of all perfection, and is therefore the source of our happiness, fulfillment and completion. Therefore God is heaven.

Your confusion is based on a flawed view of heaven. Heaven is not a place in which their are tables fall of sweets and nice things. That is the immature view of heaven. The real heaven is eternity with God and is God.

Voila!! And since this time on earth is a fraction of Eternity therefore we have already shared in a relationship with God (even if only a speck of time in that eternity)

Yes we have shared in the good of existence. And since existence is good and is God, how is it logically possible that you will pass out of it?

And if we have experienced it in many and varied ways THERE IS THEREFORE ENOUGH REASON TO LOVE HIM NOW FOR THAT ALONE, EVEN IF for the rest of eternity there is not existence for us.
If God does not desire to love us for all eternity, then such a God is an impostor. He is not love.

Therefore the original OP is a fallacy.
benedictus2;5041330:

I understand the nature of God. But you don’t understand the point of this thread. THIS IS A WHAT IF.

Such a question cannot even begin to be answered because the nature of perfect love does not allow it. Its a trick question. You are saying that i “ought” to love God. But if there is no heaven, then God does not love us. And if there is no such thing as an eternally perfect love, then there is no such thing as objective moral standards. And if there are no objective moral standards, then the OP amounts to nothing more then an opportunity to encourage a meaningless parade of human glory. But their is no glory for God. For me to say i would love God even if there were no heaven, is to deny God his glory, because the true God would want us to be perfectly happy; and that can only be acquired (accept for maybe a few exceptions) by freely accepting his invitation to an eternity of love. That is the perfect good and the glory that i know as God. It is love that is heaven; and love is God. An it is natural for humanity to desire that which completes them. If you do not care about heaven, it seems to me that you do not care about Gods love.

Since we are not yet in “heaven” you are saying that we are unable to find any joy or any sense of fulfillment here on earth at all?

It depends upon what you mean by fulfillment? We cannot be fulfilled in any true sense of heaven here on earth. If that were true, what would be the point of heaven? We can certainly experience joy and happiness, but it is finite, fleeting, and none of it can be compare to or can fulfill us like heaven.

Is life here really that miserable?

Some people have low standards. For me, it is miserable. I only choose to exist because God is heaven.

Are you saying that after giving you life on this earth, and showering you with blessings on this earth, so that you will experience love on this earth, after doing all that, if God decides to end your life in oblivion that means He did not love you into existence and He did not love you on this earth at all?

Not perfectly, no. Perhaps i would respect him as a parent, but then again i would wonder why such a being would bring me into a reality full of suffering and potential horror, since an imperfect God certainly cannot give me fulfillment or ultimately save me. Such a god, in my eyes, would be a selfish abuser. The God i ought to know and love is perfect, and the only justified reason for bringing somebody into existence is because existence is perfectly good. And if it is perfectly good for a person to exist, then it is an imperfection for somebody to cease. And i love him because God is heaven.