If there were no God

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PickyPicky said:
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catholic1seeks:
Do tell.

And don’t forget to explain all of God’s goals and purposes in creating the Universe as He now did, and how he could obtain those same ends in your proposed Universe
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It’s called vegetarianism. Many prey species manage to live that way.

I can’t tell you what God’s goals and purposes might be, although I am told that one must not do evil in order that good may come.
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Sure. And there are plenty of granola-munchers that would be happy to bombard you with academic treatises on the possibility of a pain response in all sorts of plant-life…
 
I can’t tell you what God’s goals and purposes might be, although I am told that one must not do evil in order that good may come.
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If (1) God is fully actual, and therefore fully intelligent, and (2) you do not know God’s plan or goals, then how could you possibly claim to make a “better Universe”?
 
Vonsalza said:
Sure. And there are plenty of granola-munchers that would be happy to bombard you with academic treatises on the possibility of a pain response in all sorts of plant-life…
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Fortunately, I’m told, God is omnipotent.
 
PickyPicky said:
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Vonsalza:
Sure. And there are plenty of granola-munchers that would be happy to bombard you with academic treatises on the possibility of a pain response in all sorts of plant-life…
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Fortunately, I’m told, God is omnipotent.
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Who on earth said that this onmipotent god would always use its potency in a way you liked?
 
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catholic1seeks said:
If (1) God is fully actual, and therefore fully intelligent, and (2) you do not know God’s plan or goals, then how could you possibly claim to make a “better Universe”?
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I’m not claiming to make a universe at all.
 
PickyPicky said:
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Vonsalza:
Who on earth said that this onmipotent god would use its potency in a way you liked?
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No one. And indeed if He exists, He evidently hasn’t.
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Well there ya go. Now to decide, if it’s even knowable, which of you is wrong? If this theoretical god sets the rules by definition, then you can guess how I’ll vote.
 
Aloysium said:
I don’t think one can study too much, but we definitely can pray too little
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I prayed virtually non stop over the course of about 2 years. My health deteriorated. It’s quite interesting that after I stopped practicing my faith, I got better. I attribute it more to the medication, however.
 
Obviously you’re not MAKING a Universe…

But you said you could think of better one.
 
Why can’t medication be an answer to prayer? It probably was.
 
Vonsalza said:
Vegitation isn’t very mobile. Ergo its need for a fast warning mechanism like pain is substantially curtailed.

But again, no one on your team has sufficiently proven that pain is objectively bad, which you kinda-sorta need to do in order to rationally proceed.
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The mobility is not the point. The ability to regenerate is. The only positive effect of pain is that it is a warning system. If there is no need for such a system then pain has no reason to exist.

Of course the “distribution” of pain does not point to a rational “designer”. Toothache can be excruciating, while cancer is painless in the first stages, when it still could be cured. Of course the pain “itself” is not the problem. The unnecessary, gratuitous pain and suffering is. And it is definitely the job of the apologists to prove that every instance of pain is “beneficial”, and no pain is gratuitous. Good luck to do that.
 
And it is definitely the job of the apologists to prove that every instance of pain is “beneficial”, and no pain is gratuitous.
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No, it is not. The atheist is the one who claims that it is unlikely for God to bring a greater good out of certain specific evils. It is on the atheist to show why this is the case.

Once the existence of God and his nature is established, then we proceed knowing that God, with supreme intelligence, power, and goodness, CAN bring goodness out of evil. And Revelation confirms this. See Christ for more.
 
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catholic1seeks said:
Why can’t medication be an answer to prayer? It probably was.
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Would be as logical as saying that quitting religion provided me help. It’s quite egotistical for prayer to always provide the answer when it is a “good” result, but never the problem when there is a bad result. Can’t have your cake and eat it to.
 
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PickyPicky said:
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Aloysium:
I believe we did.
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That means a universe designed so that failings in one species result in pain and suffering for other species. An absolutely good creator would have avoided a design with that consequence.
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We do not share a common view of nature.

The ultimate reality is Existence.

We are not a species of animal, but rather a different form of being from other creatures. Animals and mankind share a physical nature, having many structural, physiological and emotional similarities. However, the actual substance of what we are, the type of being that is a person is totally different from that of animals.

So it’s not a matter of one species influencing another, but rather has to do with the meaning of the universe, culminating in the creation of mankind. We are composed of the same stuff as everything else, and can understand ourselves to be the universe, participating within itself through individual components relating to all that is other to their individual selves. It’s hard to jump out of one paradigm into another, but imagine how we, as an expression of everything, bring everything down with us when we choose wnader from the Centre from which everything comes into being.

The ultimate aim is that the universe come to know and its creator. This may sound Buddhist but suffering comes when we lose what has been illusory the whole time, never ours and leading to death. When we adhere to what is transient, we go with it and hence towards nothingness and the pain that comes with it. But, we are not doomed to eternal separation; we can get there through the choices we make in our lives. We can become Love itself in and through Jesus Christ.
 
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catholic1seeks said:
Once the existence of God and his nature is established, then we proceed knowing that God, with supreme intelligence, power, and goodness, CAN bring goodness out of evil. And Revelation confirms this. See Christ for more.
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It’s not established. It’s an opinion.
 
Perhaps?

Simply saying “practicing religion” does not equate to doing God’s will.

But anyway, it doesn’t follow. The point is rather that in God’s supreme providence, answer to prayer is much, much more than the “miraculous.” Remember that God is the foundation of all reality and existence. It’s not as if he’s just another being within the Universe – e.g., “the god of miracles”
 
catholic1seeks said:
Perhaps?

Simply saying “practicing religion” does not equate to doing God’s will.

But anyway, it doesn’t follow. The point is rather that in God’s supreme providence, answer to prayer is much, much more than the “miraculous.” Remember that God is the foundation of all reality and existence. It’s not as if he’s just another being within the Universe – e.g., “the god of miracles”
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We cannot know God’s will, remember? He works in mysterious ways. Maybe his will is that I kill half of the humans on the planet?
 
But the Christian has no problem. It’s about consistency. Once God’s existence is established, then certain things follow. It’s the atheist in this case who is claiming certain specific (physical) evil counts as evidence against God.
 
catholic1seeks said:
No, it is not. The atheist is the one who claims that it is unlikely for God to bring a greater good out of certain specific evils. It is on the atheist to show why this is the case.
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Why would it be? Negatives cannot be “proven”. The atheists simply say that there is no visible positive side effect of pain and suffering. Their argument is the “duck principle”. And everyone uses the duck principle, both believers and infidels.

And “what” greater good are you talking about? It is your job to take each and every “seemingly” evil event and show that it was actually a blessing in disguise. Take the Holocaust and bring up arguments that preventing the Holocaust would have brought forth an even worse state of affairs.
catholic1seeks said:
Once the existence of God and his nature is established, then we proceed knowing that God, with supreme intelligence, power, and goodness, CAN bring goodness out of evil. And Revelation confirms this. See Christ for more.
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That is the point. You cannot establish God’s existence or God’s “nature”. All you can do is observe the physical existence, here and now, and you can try to extrapolate from your observation. And it definitely does NOT point to a loving, caring God.
 
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We know certain aspects of God’s will from both reason and revelation.
 
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