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goout
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Hypothetical questions that propose impossible scenarios are ripe territory for pointless division.
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PetraG
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As I said, if you read the writings of John Paul II, that scholarly and saintly man concluded that this was not merely a tradition of man, subject to change, but the way that the Sacrament of Holy Orders was instituted by Our Lord, who obviously could have ordained Mary Magdalene and the other holy women who followed Him and the Twelve everywhere they went, if He had been so inclined.
The “traditions of man” that are being advocated for are the current traditions of secular society that currently say there are no roles that a woman may not fulfill every bit as well as a man. None. Society is even saying that a marriage does not need a man, does not need a woman, that male and female are irrelevant accidents of a person or an aspect of a person that depends upon self-concept for definition.
The Tradition of choosing only men for the vocation to Holy Orders, in contrast, is the standard instituted by Our Lord himself according to His intention for the priesthood. The Gospel tells us Our Lord was not short on worthy and faithful women in his personal entourage nor did He feel bound by societal boundaries having to do with women.
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TomS333
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To join in with the “You can’t have a female Pope” debate:
“…always able to exercise freely.”
What does that mean exactly?
How far does it extend, i.e. could he change Doctrine to allow for a female successor?
“…always able to exercise freely.”
What does that mean exactly?
How far does it extend, i.e. could he change Doctrine to allow for a female successor?
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rose321
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Respectfully opinion only in pondering.
Agree with, a shadow of things to come? If Jesus permitted it and had more woman disciples, and Mary Magdalene known as Apostle among the Apostle, Jesus actions speak louder then words do they not? Not to mention Holy Woman who opened their own homes for weekly sabbaths, preaching, teaching and those Holy Woman in serving him, calling out spreading the Word to gather within the community?Did Jesus not rebuke mans traditions and turned man traditions on its head? Honor thy Father and Mother, commandments do not put one over or above the other does it? Equal?
It is a call out to all to become Holy is it not, was never a call out for just the few to make it their profession>> but a call out to all? To render themselves Holy in serving him, is it written within his Spoken Word>>Let your ears hear what the Holy Spirit says to…
Listing just a few Bible verses on His Spoken Word calling out>> Thou to be Holy >>flows all throughout the Bible>>
Lev 11:44 For I am the Lord your God consecrate yourself there forth and be Holy
Psalms 22:3 …but also to the people of God every where be Holy.
1 Peter 1:16 Be Holy because I am Holy.
Deut 7:6 For you are a people Holy to the Lord thy Father the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be special people unto Him.
Pondering on and matters not to me if we have a female Pope or Woman, would it matter with our Heavenly Father?
Who commands his people to honor our Fathers and Mothers?
Woman are the heart of the Home? Oneness? Family? Unity?
House divided cannot stand? Mystery of the Marriage and the 2 become One, a powerful energy source?> Natural Law of Holy One is it not?
Not important, rather what is important we render our hears, soul and mind>>I am Holy thou art to be Holy unto the Lord?
Want to enter the Kingdom obey the Commandments and Love thy neighbor as you love yourself?
Not about gender is it with our Heavenly Father? Does he not rather seek, the>> Hearts, Souls and Minds of His people?
Peace
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OsculeturMeOsculo
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Don’t you do that too?
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BlackFriar
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I am not the one building an Egyptian pyramid on its point and being told its black and white 
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LilyM
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Exactly - how about a successor who is a dog or a ficus plant?
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LilyM
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Pope John Paul 2 said many things about the role of women in the Church and in relation to the priesthood. I’m not going to rehash Ordinatio Sacerdotalis or Mulieris Dignitatem for you. They are online for anyone to read, and should be read and understood as a whole, as you as an academic would well understand.
Suffice to say that, when Benedict 16 was requested to issue a dubia - a formal clarification as to whether Ordinatio Sacerdotalis was definitive and binding - he unhesitatingly answered that it was. That too is online for anyone to read, so I won’t quote it.
So - I have produced Magisterial teaching, which is the highest of all authority. Certainly trumps theological speculation. In case you think it doesn’t, JP2 and B16 have both been widely acknowledged as respected theologians also, so even in that regard their views count for much. Produce, on your side, your Popes and Ecumenical Councils who say - in exactly so many words, including the female pronoun - and in authoritative teaching documents - that women can be Bishops and Popes, and then you may have something with more authority behind it than what I have.
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AndrewAxland
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You’re comparing a woman to a dog? Sounds like something Borat would say.
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LilyM
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Hehe - who knew Borat could hide such hidden wisdom under his crass exterior?LilyM:
You’re comparing a woman to a dog? Sounds like something Borat would say.
Alright - how about a five-week-old baby then?
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BlackFriar
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You misunderstand the request. I refer to the eligibility criteria for Pope-elects.BlackFriar:
Pope John Paul 2 said many things about the role of women in the Church and in relation to the priesthood. I’m not going to rehash Ordinatio Sacerdotalis
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PetraG
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As Paul VI later explained: “The real reason is that, in giving the Church her fundamental constitution, her theological anthropology-thereafter always followed by the Church’s Tradition- Christ established things in this way.” (Address on the Role of Women in the Plan of Salvation (January 30, 1977): Insegnamenti, XV (1977), 111. Cf. Also John Paul II Apostolic Exhortation Christifideles laici (December 30, 1988), n. 51: AAS 81 (1989), 393-521; Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 1577.)
Would it matter to Our Heavenly Father if we chose to do things as we ordain rather than as Christ Himself ordained?
The greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven are not the ministers but the saints.
(Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Declaration Inter Insigniores n. 6: AAS 69 (1977), 115.)
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artortega
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The title of a female Pope will be mama or popess.
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dochawk
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However, the election is actually the election of the Bishop of Rome, who by virtue of that office is Pope.Ordination is only a legal requirement for acquiring Papal power, not being validly Papally elected Lily
See Canon 332.
The woman could not be elected Bishop of Rome, and thus couldn’t be elected Pope.
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LilyM
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Funny. I had a look at the procedure for election of a Pope instituted by JP2 which you referred to earlier.LilyM:
You misunderstand the request. I refer to the eligibility criteria for Pope-elects.BlackFriar:
Pope John Paul 2 said many things about the role of women in the Church and in relation to the priesthood. I’m not going to rehash Ordinatio Sacerdotalis
Contained in Universi Dominici Gregis, 1996.
Paragraph 52 has all the Cardinal Electors take an oath prior to the election which reads, in part, as follows:
“We, the Cardinal electors present in this election of the Supreme Pontiff promise, pledge and swear … that whichever of US by divine disposition is elected Roman Pontiff will commit himself faithfully …” (my emphasis)
Note the “whichever of us” - a Pope-elect is to be chosen not from among the general population, but from among the Cardinal Electors who are swearing the oath.
Who, also per the Conclave rules, are all Cardinals:
“33. The right to elect the Roman Pontiff belongs exclusively to the Cardinals of Holy Roman Church, with the exception of those who have reached their eightieth birthday before the day of the Roman Pontiff’s death or the day when the Apostolic See becomes vacant. The maximum number of Cardinal electors must not exceed one hundred and twenty. The right of active election by any other ecclesiastical dignitary or the intervention of any lay power of whatsoever grade or order is absolutely excluded.” (again, my emphasis)
So who is eligible to be a Cardinal?
Canon 351 tells us - “Those promoted as cardinals are MEN freely selected by the Roman Pontiff, who are at least in the order of presbyterate [priest] …" (my emphasis)
So the chain of logic - per JP2’s own rules and the Canon Law revised and instituted on his watch - are as follows:
No priesthood- no Cardinalate - no Cardinalate, no Cardinal-Electorship - no Cardinal-Electorship, no Pope-Elect.
Lack of eligibility for the priesthood quite simply precludes anyone from proceeding further in process towards election. And JP2 was very specific about excluding laypeople from eligibility either to elect or be elected as well.
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BlackFriar
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Read the Canon. It doesn’t say what you want it to say.
Without ordination the elected candidate is still validly called “the Roman Pontiff”.
He additionally becomes “Bishop of Rome”, in the case of a lay person, after being ordained bishop obviously enough.
“Roman Pontiff” spells “Pope” for most people.
Without ordination the elected candidate is still validly called “the Roman Pontiff”.
He additionally becomes “Bishop of Rome”, in the case of a lay person, after being ordained bishop obviously enough.
“Roman Pontiff” spells “Pope” for most people.
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dochawk
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No. Your interpretation is such a fundamental misstatement of two thousand years of Christian history that it is difficult to know where to start.
The papacy cannot be separated from the Bishop of Rome. It is only because the Bishop of Rome is Peter’s successor that he has any particular influence outside his diocese (other than that of any Archbishop over his suffragen diocese [which is de minimumus in the modern RCC]).
There is NO Pontifical role separate from the Roman see.
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BlackFriar
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I don’t need to.
I just follow the latest Canons.
Am willing to reflect on a respected commentary if you find one that agrees with you.
Until then there’s nothing more to say.
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LilyM
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I read, as you clearly need to, ALL the relevant Canons PLUS the Conclave Rules set up by JP2. You cannot cherrypick one Canon and read it in isolation.
The relevant documents impose restrictions, which I pointed out in detail above, as to who exactly can be elected in the first place. It is not a free-for-all. The Cardinal-Electors swear solemnly to recognise whichever “of us”, in other words whichever Cardinal-Elector, is chosen as Pontiff - not simply whichever person.
This, given the criteria for being both a Cardinal and a Cardinal-Elector, operates to expressly exclude all laypeople.
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BlackFriar
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BlackFriar:
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