If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic? - 2

[Gottle_of_Geer]

: Personally, I find the Catholic Church to be a whole lot LESS legalistic than the Baptist church I left.

It’s not arrogance, it’s with great humility and awe that the Catholic Church demonstrates that she is the One Church founded by Christ. It only sounds arrogant if you don’t understand it, I guess. Every other denomination in the world can point to a human as its founder, except the Catholic Church (not just Roman, which is only one of many Rites that are all Catholic.)

*What *is “Petrine doctrine” ??

No one has salvation outside the CHURCH. One doesn’t have to be ROMAN Catholic and the Church doesn’t teach that at ALL.

Plenty of Catholics on these fora are very certain that the CC does teach that. They can quote Popes & Ecumenical Councils in their support.​

(Go here for an example:

• forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=234721
  or see this thread:
• forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=215625
  (among others) **You contradict them. So whom are Protestants to believe - you; or them ? There is much real uncertainty in the CC as many Catholics say there is among Protestants **

Infallibility is a gift from God and ONLY on matters of faith and morals. Infallibility is NOT impeccability.

**But who gets to say what comes under “faith & morals” ? The Pope. So the seeming restriction on the scope of the subject-matter of infallibility is as narrow - or as broad - as the Pope desires it to be. And who limits what the Pope wants ? No one on earth. He is superior to the whole Church, to the whole ****episcopate, ****to ecumenical councils (which are legitimate only if the Pope recognises them as such, & can be convoked, suspended, & concluded only if the Pope allows). The CC is in effect a Papocracy, & the Pope is the last absolute monarch in Europe, & the last Priest-King in Europe or the Near East. As supreme law-giver in the Church, he can dispense himself from obeying the laws he requires others to obey, & can be kept in check or called to account by nobody. **​

**Is this really healthy, or in accord with the Will of Christ ? It is not easy for Protestants to recognise in the Priest-King of the Vatican City State a character much like any of the Apostles; no wonder they aren’t Catholics. **

Lots of other Christians affirm the Real Presence - the Orthodox believe the EXACT same thing about what happens to the bread and wine that the Catholic Church teaches, they just call it a “mystery” instead.

 

[Madaglan]

w_stewart,

The Orthodox Church historically, in her documents, refers to herself as the Catholic Church. This is most true when speaking of each local Church. Even today in the U.S. you find “Ukrainian Catholic” churches that are actually Orthodox churches (in the Eastern Orthodox communion).

Your assumption that once the Great Schism occurred the East stopped referring to itself as members of the body Catholic (supposedly recognizing the Western Church as the Catholic Church) is wrong.

 

[Memaw]

People don’t leave the Roman Catholic Church because they don’t understand it; they leave the Roman Catholic Church because of various reasons, with only misinformation and lack of information as possible contributing factors, and then only in certain cases.

Some people leave because of reasons of trust. Look at the number of Roman Catholics who left the Roman Catholic Church after the liturgical changes of Vatican II. Or, the Catholics sexually abused who left because they could no longer trust the hierarchy (I’m not defending these reasons).

Other people leave the Roman Catholic Church because they encounter God elsewhere. They have a personal experience with God they believe they did not or could not have in Roman Catholicism. This could be spurred by major life trauma, when a friend introduces a person to evangelical Christianity; it could happen in a variety of other ways as well.

Yet others leave because of a journey of faith–through prayer they realize that what the Roman Catholic Church claims is not necessarily true.

Perhaps if some people were to have a greater knowledge of what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, then they may not leave it. But the fact is, a lot of people don’t leave the Church because of a lack of information, but because they are drawn elsewhere. There’s a book: Close to God, Far From Rome (or perhaps the title is inverted), in which 50 Roman Catholic priests give their story for why they converted. Many of these priests were well-educated, even at Pontifical universities, and several were Jesuits and Dominicans, They probably knew what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, but they disagreed with it nonetheless.

For my part, my becoming Orthodox was a gradual process that involved prayer and learning. I became familiar with the Eastern Catholic churches, and I attended one for about two years. During this time, I realized that the “Rome alone” attitude is not and was not the proper attitude of the Church. For an idea of where I’m coming from, take a look at Archbishop Elias’ Zoghby’s works. (He was Melkite Catholic, so he won’t corrupt your mind )

IN spite of those who leave the Catholic Church for whatever reason, they were only hurting themselves in the long run. As for the clergy that left, they are humans too and are susceptible to pride, power, etc, just like anyone else. “If I don’t get my own way, I leave attitude.” I don’t have to analize their reasons for leaving, I just know they went the wrong path and I also know many of them have regretted it. Many left by the proper channels also. As for the priest scandle, I am very sorry that happened and offer no excuse for any priest involved in that whatso ever. but because the media has focused only on the Catholic church it is the only one in the news. Sex abuse if far worse among other religious leaders and even Dr.s & teachers than it is for priests, fathers, (dads), top the list. No one ever sues the medical profession, or teachers union, or marriage bureau. I don’t condone that for any person and legally they should all be treated alike, if proven to be guilty. Don’t blame that on the teaching of the Catholic Church as you all KNOW the Church does NOT condone that in any way. We all pay the price for the sins of a few.
The teachings of the Catholic Church and the Sacraments are there for whoever seeks the fullness of the truth. That will never change. Many, many protestant ministers from many different sects, are becoming Catholic because they see the fullness of truth in it. They have studied scripture and realized that the Bible, especially the Acts of the Apostles and John 6, and the writings of the Early Fathers of the Church describe the Catholic Church and none other.
The orthodox churches are working to be reunited to the Pope and I believe that will happen in the near future, hopefully before I die. I have talked with an orthodox Bishop and he is praying for the same thing. So if I were you, I wouldn’t bash the Catholic Church to badly until you truly study her teachings and open you heart to the Holy Spirit who will lead you home to Rome if you are seeking the fullness of truth. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

Orthodox Patriarch Says Unity an Obligation Sends Message to Vatican on Feast of St. Andrew

By Miriam Diez i Bosch
ISTANBUL, Turkey, DEC. 5, 2007 ( Zenit.org).- It is an obligation to reclaim the spiritual, sacramental and doctrinal unity that Europe enjoyed prior to the schism of the East and West, said the Orthodox patriarch of Constantinople.
Bartholomew I said this Friday in a letter addressed to a delegation sent by Benedict XVI to Istanbul for the regular exchange of visits between the two Churches for the feasts of St. Andrew, Nov. 30, and Sts. Peter and Paul, June 29.
Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, led the delegation.
Bartholomew I affirmed the presence of the delegation “both strengthens and seals the bonds of love and trust between our Churches, bonds which have been cultivated in recent decades, and which have been especially established by the visit” of Benedict XVI in November 2006.
The patriarch also emphasized “that the peaceful coexistence of Christians, in a spirit of unity and concord, must constitute the fundamental concern of us all.”
Battling secularism
Bartholomew I recognized that in an age in which there is a rise of “secularism and relativism, or even nihilism, especially in the Western world,” we must derive inspiration from the example of the Apostle Andrew, who knew how to “remain upstanding through the strength of Christ” in spite of “numerous difficulties.”
The example of St. Andrew offers an opportunity to “pray together more intently for the restoration of unity within the Christian world,” urged Bartholomew I, adding that “the fracture of this unity has been the cause of so much trouble in humanity, while its consequences have proved tragic.”
Bartholomew I emphasized that the Enlightenment philosophy in the West and the French Revolution meant a true “cultural revolution aimed at replacing the previous Christian tradition of the Western world with a new, non-Christian, concept of man and society.”
He said this “gave rise in many ways” to a “militant atheism and totalitarianism which, over the last two centuries, have unfortunately claimed the lives of millions of innocent victims.”
The patriarch continued: "Today, then, it is our obligation more than ever to reclaim the Christian roots of Europe and the spiritual, sacramental and doctrinal unity that it enjoyed prior to the schism of our two Churches.
“The re-evangelization of our peoples is ‘today, more so than ever before, timely and necessary, even within traditional Christian lands,’ as we admitted and confessed in common here exactly one year ago.”

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Posted by Memaw:

IN spite of those who leave the Catholic Church for whatever reason, they were only hurting themselves in the long run. As for the clergy that left, they are humans too and are susceptible to pride, power, etc, just like anyone else.

Again, the assumption is that people always leave the Roman Catholic Church for completely the wrong reasons, due to some defect in their understanding or human weakness.

“If I don’t get my own way, I leave attitude.” I don’t have to analize their reasons for leaving, I just know they went the wrong path and I also know many of them have regretted it.

Again, the assumption is that people leave because they are too prideful. Some may regret it. I can’t get into every person’s head or heart. Do you disregard the possibility that people can leave the Roman Catholic Church with humility and a well-informed conscience, not to mention an intellectual knowledge of what Roman Catholicism teaches?

Many left by the proper channels also.

What’s that supposed to mean?

As for the priest scandle, I am very sorry that happened and offer no excuse for any priest involved in that whatso ever. but because the media has focused only on the Catholic church it is the only one in the news. Sex abuse if far worse among other religious leaders and even Dr.s & teachers than it is for priests, fathers, (dads), top the list. No one ever sues the medical profession, or teachers union, or marriage bureau. I don’t condone that for any person and legally they should all be treated alike, if proven to be guilty. Don’t blame that on the teaching of the Catholic Church as you all KNOW the Church does NOT condone that in any way. We all pay the price for the sins of a few.

The halls of Hell are lined with the skulls of bishops. I personally find the priest scandal in the Roman Catholic Church as a poor reason for leaving. The Protestants and Orthodox have their share of scandals as well. The media does tend to focus much on the Catholic sex scandal, but there has been coverage of abuse in certain Protestant churches, as well as, more recently, the fundamentalist LDS community.

The teachings of the Catholic Church and the Sacraments are there for whoever seeks the fullness of the truth. That will never change.

The Orthodox have full and true sacraments (mysteries). They teach what has been believed always, everywhere and by all.

Many, many protestant ministers from many different sects, are becoming Catholic because they see the fullness of truth in it. They have studied scripture and realized that the Bible, especially the Acts of the Apostles and John 6, and the writings of the Early Fathers of the Church describe the Catholic Church and none other.

Many, many protestant ministers are also becoming Orthodox. Something like 60%+ Orthodox priests in the U.S. are converts, mostly I would think from Protestantism. Ever hear of Fr. Gilquist? He was a former head of Capmus Crusade for Christ and led 4,000 Protestants to the Eastern Orthodox Church.

The orthodox churches are working to be reunited to the Pope and I believe that will happen in the near future,

Your Western bias is here present–that is, if you mean the Orthodox are desperately seeking re-union with Rome.

The Orthodox Churches seek a unified Church as it was in the 1st millenium before the Great Schism. The Orthodox Church would like to see the Western Church return to her Western Orthodox roots, present in the 1st millenium. But this does not mean they consider their present ecclesiological situation defective, as the Western Church considers the Eastern Churches.

I have talked with an orthodox Bishop and he is praying for the same thing. So if I were you, I wouldn’t bash the Catholic Church to badly until you truly study her teachings and open you heart to the Holy Spirit who will lead you home to Rome if you are seeking the fullness of truth. God Bless,

The Orthodox bishops are praying for unity, yes, but they are not for (or should not be for) a false unity, such as occurred at Florence. There are several problems that yet need to be resolved before receiving the Pope back into communion (to put it bluntly, from the Orthodox perspective; were such a union to occur, the Roman Catholics likely would see it vice versa as the Orthodox Churches returning to communion). I hope the Western Church and the Eastern Church commune once again, but I would like to see it done when the proclaimed faith of the two is the same.

Why would I bash the Catholic Church? I already am a Catholic in the Catholic Church. I mean this, seriously. Now, I don’t always agree with what the Western Church teaches, but does this make me anti-Catholic? I don’t accept the Western Church’s interpretation of Church history, but does that mean that I’m “bashing” the [Roman] Catholic Church?

Rome isn’t home for all Catholics either. Look at the Melkites, the Ukrainian Catholics, the Ruthenians, the Maronites, the Syro-Malabar, etc. Although in communion with the Roman Church, their home is not Rome but the Churches at or in Antioch, Kiev, Carpatho-Rus., Lebanon, etc.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Posted by Memaw:

The patriarch continued: "Today, then, it is our obligation more than ever to reclaim the Christian roots of Europe and the spiritual, sacramental and doctrinal unity that it enjoyed prior to the schism of our two Churches.

The Patriarch is doing right here: he is pointing back to the time before the Great Schism when both East and West shared a common faith and were united. This is what the Orthodox bishops are praying for.

[Correction to statistic in last post: 60% in the Antiochian Archdiocese. It’s about 30-40% in the OCA.]

 

[Madaglan]

Several parishes of the CEC (Charismatic Episcopal Church) also are in the process of becoming Orthodox. Many CEC churches already have been received into the Orthodox Church, their entire congregations being received by chrismation. I believe all the CEC parishes that became Orthodox have been received by the Antiochian Archdiocese, although others may have been received by the OCA or the Greek Archdiocese. I attended one Western Rite Orthodox Church (a former CEC congregation) a few times within the past six months. It was very interesting. They celebrated what is essentially the Tridentine Mass, but in English, without the filioque, and with Anglican rather than Gregorian hymns. It was very well done.

By the way, Fr. Gilquist led what amounted to 17 EOC (Evangelical Orthodox Church) parishes (and over 2,000 people) to the Orthodox Church. I don’t know why I wrote 4,000 (perhaps the original number of the his Protestant congregations altogether) but the correct figure is 2,000 or over 2,000. Some of the EOC parishes entered through the OCA later…

 

[catholiconce]

**If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic? - 2 **

Note: The first thread titled, “If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic?” was closed because it had exceeded the maximum amount of posts (1,000). Continue your remarks on this topic, here.

Oh Jimmy B You seem to know it all and why others have left the RCC. To assume all who leave have had several marriages is wrong. Millons have left. Have you asked 51% of those who left about their marriage status? No I did not think so. So where does your data come from.

 

[backwoods_blues]

Oh Jimmy B You seem to know it all and why others have left the RCC. To assume all who leave have had several marriages is wrong. Millons have left. Have you asked 51% of those who left about their marriage status? No I did not think so. So where does your data come from.

Oh Catholiconce not surprised at your response !! What a login name “Catholiconce” What are you now? Did you move from Montana to Spokane. Sounds to me like your trying to hide your true Faith and your true location. What are you trying to hide tell us the truth. Do you know the truth I think not if you did you would still be catholic.

 

[catholiconce]

Oh Catholiconce not surprised at your response !! What a login name “Catholiconce” What are you now? Did you move from Montana to Spokane. Sounds to me like your trying to hide your true Faith and your true location. What are you trying to hide tell us the truth. Do you know the truth I think not if you did you would still be catholic.

I am a Christian!! Where do I live ? we all live east of some where Spokane is where I live east of.

 

[backwoods_blues]

I am a Christian!! Where do I live ? we all live east of some where Spokane is where I live east of.

Now I see why the Title of “Catholiconce” Spoken like a true protestant.

 

[backwoods_blues]

Now I see why the Title of “Catholiconce” Spoken like a true protestant./QUOTE
I

 

[catholiconce]

Now I see why the Title of “Catholiconce” Spoken like a true protestant.

Now after I read your profile I see where you are coming from. Thank you for your remarks.Your Profile speaks volumes.

 

[Memaw]

The Patriarch is doing right here: he is pointing back to the time before the Great Schism when both East and West shared a common faith and were united. This is what the Orthodox bishops are praying for.

[Correction to statistic in last post: 60% in the Antiochian Archdiocese. It’s about 30-40% in the OCA.]

If you had it all along, then why does he say it is an obligation to “reclaim” the spiritual, sacramental and doctrinal unity prior to the schism??? Instead of fussing at each other about this, we should be “praying intently for the restoration of unity within the chirstian world.”

 

[Memaw]

Plenty of Catholics on these fora are very certain that the CC does teach that. They can quote Popes & Ecumenical Councils in their support.​

(Go here for an example:

• forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=234721
  or see this thread:
• forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=215625
  (among others) **You contradict them. So whom are Protestants to believe - you; or them ? There is much real uncertainty in the CC as many Catholics say there is among Protestants **

**But who gets to say what comes under “faith & morals” ? The Pope. So the seeming restriction on the scope of the subject-matter of infallibility is as narrow - or as broad - as the Pope desires it to be. And who limits what the Pope wants ? No one on earth. He is superior to the whole Church, to the whole ****episcopate, ****to ecumenical councils (which are legitimate only if the Pope recognises them as such, & can be convoked, suspended, & concluded only if the Pope allows). The CC is in effect a Papocracy, & the Pope is the last absolute monarch in Europe, & the last Priest-King in Europe or the Near East. As supreme law-giver in the Church, he can dispense himself from obeying the laws he requires others to obey, & can be kept in check or called to account by nobody. **​

**Is this really healthy, or in accord with the Will of Christ ? It is not easy for Protestants to recognise in the Priest-King of the Vatican City State a character much like any of the Apostles; no wonder they aren’t Catholics. **

You absolutely DO NOT even know what you are talking about !!! So you better quit while your ahead or you may just sink deeper and deeper in your own tales. Remember the 8th Commandment.

 

[vocatio]

I am a Christian!! Where do I live ? we all live east of some where Spokane is where I live east of.

Catholiconce, what event caused you to leave the Catholic Church?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Plenty of Catholics on these fora are very certain that the CC does teach that. They can quote Popes & Ecumenical Councils in their support.​

(Go here for an example:

• forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=234721
  or see this thread:
• forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=215625
  (among others) **You contradict them. So whom are Protestants to believe - you; or them ? There is much real uncertainty in the CC as many Catholics say there is among Protestants **

No contradiction. I do not believe, and the Church does NOT teach, that it’s necessary to be ROMAN Catholic to be saved. The Latin Rite is one of several Rites that are all Catholic, and while it’s the largest and most publicized Rite in the Catholic Church, the Latin Rite **alone **does not have a monopoly on salvation. That’s all I’m saying and that’s exactly what the Church teaches. Anyone and everyone who is saved and gets to Heaven, gets there by the Grace of God.

**But who gets to say what comes under “faith & morals” ? The Pope. So the seeming restriction on the scope of the subject-matter of infallibility is as narrow - or as broad - as the Pope desires it to be. And who limits what the Pope wants ? No one on earth. He is superior to the whole Church, to the whole ****episcopate, ****to ecumenical councils (which are legitimate only if the Pope recognises them as such, & can be convoked, suspended, & concluded only if the Pope allows). The CC is in effect a Papocracy, & the Pope is the last absolute monarch in Europe, & the last Priest-King in Europe or the Near East. As supreme law-giver in the Church, he can dispense himself from obeying the laws he requires others to obey, & can be kept in check or called to account by nobody. **​

**Is this really healthy, or in accord with the Will of Christ ? It is not easy for Protestants to recognise in the Priest-King of the Vatican City State a character much like any of the Apostles; no wonder they aren’t Catholics. **

I am a recent convert, and the little I know about both John Paul II and Benedict XVI (the only two Popes I’ve known in my life) is that they both are/were very humble men with a heart for serving the servants of Christ. I know from a brief study that not all the Popes the Church has had in the past were perfect, some of them were down-right scoundrels. What is amazing is that their actions did not affect the teachings of the Church. I know of one Pope (I’ll have to look up the name later if you really need to know) who had told someone prior to his appointment as Pope that, if he became Pope, he would change the teachings of the Church so as to uphold a certain heresy that was rampant at the time. Once he actually became Pope he refused to do so!

I could be wrong, but I’m fairly certain that the Pope is accountable to the Magesterium. Hopefully someone who’s been Catholic longer than I can affirm or correct me as needed.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Posted by Memaw:

If you had it all along, then why does he say it is an obligation to “reclaim” the spiritual, sacramental and doctrinal unity prior to the schism??? Instead of fussing at each other about this, we should be “praying intently for the restoration of unity within the chirstian world.”

The Church has an obligation to seek the return of those Churches that no longer are in communion with her. For the first millennium, these Western Churches were fully Catholic, fully Orthodox. They had their own distinct, quite beautiful rites, their own saints, their own flavor of Orthodox Christianity. The EP likely is saying that it is an obligation of the Orthodox Church to seek out this unity of the first millennium, for it would be to the greater glory of God and would demonstrate to a broken world the love of Christ.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Posted by Pixie Dust:

I am a recent convert, and the little I know about both John Paul II and Benedict XVI (the only two Popes I’ve known in my life) is that they both are/were very humble men with a heart for serving the servants of Christ. I know from a brief study that not all the Popes the Church has had in the past were perfect, some of them were down-right scoundrels. What is amazing is that their actions did not affect the teachings of the Church. I know of one Pope (I’ll have to look up the name later if you really need to know) who had told someone prior to his appointment as Pope that, if he became Pope, he would change the teachings of the Church so as to uphold a certain heresy that was rampant at the time. Once he actually became Pope he refused to do so!

I could be wrong, but I’m fairly certain that the Pope is accountable to the Magesterium. Hopefully someone who’s been Catholic longer than I can affirm or correct me as needed.

The Pope is the Magisterium. The bishops are too, indeed even the primary Magisterium, yet the Pope has authority over their decisions. Ideally, the Pope comes to conclusions only after consulting and allowing the episcopal body to discuss, but this need not be the case; the Pope can make a formal, binding declaration or writing without consultation with the bishops. Prior to Vatican II, the Magisterium was heavily vested in Pope alone; the bishops tended to be his “deputies.” Vatican II sought to amend this by focusing more on collegiality amongst the bishops. Unfortunately, the collegiality envisioned by Vatican II has in some cases led to a polarization between Rome and episcopal conferences–e.g. The Canadian bishops, the Winnipeg statement and Pope John Paul II.

The Pope’s authority cannot be qualified by the decisions of an episcopal council–be it supposedly ecumenical or local. It is supreme over all other magisterial authority in the Church. The Pope, therefore, is not accountable to the Magisterium per se, but only to Christ. He has a duty, nonetheless, of teaching only that which is the constant teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, as taught by the Apostles, the Fathers, the Ecumenical Councils, and previous Popes.

That is how I understood it when I was Roman Catholic.

 

[BloodWashed]

My reasons for leaving Catholicism have absoloutely no personal weight and are completely biblical. I was raised Catholic, and I became an atheist somewhere between 14 and 15, and was an atheist for about a year and a half. My baptist friend drug me along to church with her, and I got saved. Understand this: I /hated/ Christianity in its entirety for that year and a half when I was an atheist, and the Lord Jesus has changed me into just as much of a Bible-thumper as the young people who were raised in my Independant Baptist church.

I take offense to the statement that Christians are trying to do things on their own terms and not on God’s by rejecting Catechism. What are you going to do with the Bible? The Bible simply SCREAMS rejection of the Roman Catholic Church.

The main issue with Catholocism is that the Church rejects the faith alone doctrine. As my username states, I am a blood washed Christian. When I got saved, I got washed in the blood and my sins were gone. I don’t need baptism, I don’t need confirmation, I don’t need confession, I don’t need Mary. I need the blessed Lord Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

The Apostle Paul wrote that. What are you going to do with Ephesians 2:8-9? Those two verses say you’re saved by FAITH, not of works that I hath done. I’m sorry, but I refuse to take the word of the Pope over the word of my Lord who died for me.

I could write essays more, and I will if challenged to, but this is the major issue with Catholicism verses the blood washed church. And excuse me if someone posted this, but I wasn’t about to read all those pages.