If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic? - 2

[guanophore]

It presupposes that there are no legitimate reasons for not being Catholic.
There is an arrogance that Catholics display over and over again when they lay out their positions, this is a case in point.

I think what you are perceiving here is the actual perspective of the OP. According to some, there really are no legitimate reasons for not being Catholic. Reasons are chalked up to ignorance (primarily) and along with that inculcation in anti-Catholic bigotry and rebellion (refusal to submit to God’s appointed authority).

Somehow it seems to me that it must be possible to have pride and confidence in one’s faith community and still maintain humility. However, I agree that you are right about an air of arrogance. I experience that too on this Board from Latin Rite Catholics, who seem to think that their Rite is the only, and the most supreme, etc, etc.

What would you consider a “legitimate” reason?

 

[guanophore]

Without a list of all the things that a Catholic must believe in, it is hard to be a truly proper Catholic, ne?

I do not think that the fullness of Truth can be committed to a “list”. Following Jesus is a way of life, as you have rightly noted many times. In the NT, it is called The Way. You also recently noted that you took an oath to believe and teach all that the Catholic Church believes an teaches. I think that a person of inquiry, such as yourself, and such as you commend to Memaw would require a lifetime of discovery of all this. I would say yes, it is hard to be a truly proper Catholic, but at the same time, we are only responsible for that which we know.

People refer to what a Catholic must believe to be the truth; I vowed earlier this week that I would do my best, to do my duty, to the Catholic Church. But no one has been able to give me that list which must be derived from millions of pages of interpretation, divine guidance (or prevarication from Satan), Jewish commentaries, the Tradition of the Church, and the profound observations of the Communion of Saints inter alia.

No, and I think that a serious enquirer will never exhaust all that there is to learn. My father was a political scientist, and spent a lifetime studying war. He belonged to Pax Christi, and spent hours reading Catholic teachings an opinions about war. Such a pursuit has not been a personal interest of mine, but I am sure he did not exhaust all the resources.

So one does one’s best to sort through and keep an appropriate balance between the ‘musts’, and what is appropriately acceptable to a practising Catholic Christian in a tough world. Not CCC.

Yes, of course. My point was specifically in relation to this statement:
"Lisdogan:

Some Catholics might also believe that the bifurcation of the Church into a number of denominations has in fact strengtened Christianity, and prevented Christians from becoming complacent about the nature of Christian belief.

I wanted to point out that this is not a Catholic perspective. Given Jesus prayer for unity in Jn. 16, Catholics hold that He desired unity and not bifurcation or denomination. He taught and prayed that strength and power would come from clinging to the Truth (Himself) and not separations.

There is a lot out there far beyond a little town called Bethlehem, and the one we know as our Son of God and Man, Redeemer. Look up into the universe/multiverse above you: what is man that God should be mindful of him? In my spiritual quest, ‘God Creator and Abba Father’ have become real because I understand not because I have been told. Jesus of Nazareth, his divine son, is not a figment of someone’s imagination, or the design of an early Christian culture, but truly the ‘Son of God and Man’. This I understand, from reading, thinking, listening, learning and understanding.

I agree, but what will it benefit one to leave the stable, and venture out into the galaxies, if one does not know Who is present there, and is not connected to what He brought? This is why I say that searching is more fruitful from a firm foundation.

I agree one must make absolutely sure that one’s foundation is as far as possible without error, and then one can move forward into the sublime.

In Christ

What you have seen in Memaw and in others who seem to you “narrow” perhaps is the absolute certainty of foundation. Some of us who have found this have no more desire or need to go questing. Our hearts were restless, until they came to rest in Him. We cannot imagine anything more sublime than His presence, so the multiverse does not seem inviting so much any more.

 

[guanophore]

Probably because many feel there is more to Christianity than just being a Catholic. It has a condescending tone to any Christian who happens not to be Catholic.

I think this is a difference in perspective, certainly. Catholics are taught that Catholicism is the one Church founded by Christ, and that in it resides the fullness of His revelation to mankind. For Catholics, it is not possible that “there is more to Christianity that just being Catholic”, because Catholicism is the fullness of Christianity.

However, I agree that there is sometimes a condescending tone to the apologetics here, and I have experienced it myself. Perhaps I have participated as well!

 

[guanophore]

I guess I’m just a bit more open-minded than you are concerning worshiping God. I’m a cradle Catholic who goes to church every Sunday. Staying a Catholic has been my decision on how I want to worship God. Yes, I have some concerns about some of the Church’s teachings, but for the most part I’m comfortable with it, its what I know. However, I try not to judge how others have chosen to worship God, sometimes I fail in that regard I admit. As somebody else mentioned in their post, **God may not give a hoot how somebody worships him or what denomination they are, just as long as they are sincere in that belief and try to live out his teachings the best they can. **Now I haven’t completely bought into that thought, but it is something to think about. All Christian faiths lay claim to the Holy Spirit being their guide, who am I or you to dispute that unless we know God’s thoughts. I certainly can’t claim that.

You are very devout in your Catholic faith and probably a better “Catholic” than I. I’m happy for you and nobody is asking you to alter that. Be happy with your faith, but also try to acknowledge that as happy as you are with your brand of Christian worship, somebody else is just as happy with theirs (Christian or not) and just as sincere that they are following the Truth. Who is to say Christ is not happy with both of you? IMO, what may displease him is the infighting that goes on between the faiths.

Yes, it’s a lifetime adventure and once that adventure ends, we all hope to end up in the same place, although some of the roads we took to get there may be a little different.

One of Jesus’ teachings was that we worship Him in Spirit, and in Truth. Doesn’t it make sense to understand and practice what He meant by that? If you recall, there were a number of very sincere persons that got thrown out, when He said “I never knew you”. One can do many things “in His name”, including worship, but still fall short.

 

[Memaw]

I guess I’m just a bit more open-minded than you are concerning worshiping God. I’m a cradle Catholic who goes to church every Sunday. Staying a Catholic has been my decision on how I want to worship God. Yes, I have some concerns about some of the Church’s teachings, but for the most part I’m comfortable with it, its what I know. However, I try not to judge how others have chosen to worship God, sometimes I fail in that regard I admit. As somebody else mentioned in their post, God may not give a hoot how somebody worships him or what denomination they are, just as long as they are sincere in that belief and try to live out his teachings the best they can. Now I haven’t completely bought into that thought, but it is something to think about. All Christian faiths lay claim to the Holy Spirit being their guide, who am I or you to dispute that unless we know God’s thoughts. I certainly can’t claim that.

You are very devout in your Catholic faith and probably a better “Catholic” than I. I’m happy for you and nobody is asking you to alter that. Be happy with your faith, but also try to acknowledge that as happy as you are with your brand of Christian worship, somebody else is just as happy with theirs (Christian or not) and just as sincere that they are following the Truth. Who is to say Christ is not happy with both of you? IMO, what may displease him is the infighting that goes on between the faiths.

Yes, it’s a lifetime adventure and once that adventure ends, we all hope to end up in the same place, although some of the roads we took to get there may be a little different.

If what you say is what we should settle for, then WHY does the Pope continuously encourage us to evangelize. Are we supposed to hide it under a bushel basket?? I don’t think so. I believe it is our obligation to share the fullness of the Truth with others and try to help them understand the Church that Jesus gave us. Go out and TEACH all nations what I have taught you, Jesus said. Does that mean we are to leave them in their errors, even if they are sincere about them?? While many claim there are many roads to Heaven, and it doesn’t matter which one you take, Jesus said the road to Heaven is narrow and difficult, and few go there. I didn’t say that, HE did.
All we have to do is look around and we cans see that all this division in christianity is NOT working, Divide and conquer is the work of the bad guy. As an example, if ALL Christians would have stood together against abortion in the early 60’s when it first came to our attention, I believe we would have saved the lives of MILLIONS of innocent babies. But instead, many denominations fell into the trap of a womens right to her own body. I have a sticker on my car that says, “Pro Choice, thats a lie, Babies don’t choose to die.” Also if All Christians would have stood against homosexuality when it started to stick its ugly head up, it may not be the serious problem it is today. Instead, many denominations have accepted it as another lifestyle and even have homosexual ministers. The same goes for divorce and remarriage, birth control, living together without the benefit of marriage, and so many other evils of our day. The Catholic Church stands strong and tall against them and always has and always will. Maybe all Catholics don’t agree with what the Catholic Church teaches but she doesn’t water down her teachings just to accommodate them. Being “open-minded” is NOT what the Catholic Church teaches when it comes to the TRUTH. As Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen said, “The TRUTH is the truth even if no one believes it and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it.”
P.S. I do not judge others, thats God’s job!!!. I just say what the Catholic Church teaches. God Bless, Memaw.

 

[mikew262]

I think this is a difference in perspective, certainly. Catholics are taught that Catholicism is the one Church founded by Christ, and that in it resides the fullness of His revelation to mankind. For Catholics, it is not possible that “there is more to Christianity that just being Catholic”, because Catholicism is the fullness of Christianity.

Good or bad, it was interesting to see that a recent poll revealed that 79% of American Catholics feel that other faiths can lead to salvation besides their own. If this is true, your last sentence may not be entirely accurate anymore.

 

[mikew262]

If what you say is what we should settle for, then WHY does the Pope continuously encourage us to evangelize. Are we supposed to hide it under a bushel basket?? I don’t think so. I believe it is our obligation to share the fullness of the Truth with others and try to help them understand the Church that Jesus gave us. Go out and TEACH all nations what I have taught you, Jesus said. Does that mean we are to leave them in their errors, even if they are sincere about them?? While many claim there are many roads to Heaven, and it doesn’t matter which one you take, Jesus said the road to Heaven is narrow and difficult, and few go there. I didn’t say that, HE did.
All we have to do is look around and we cans see that all this division in christianity is NOT working, Divide and conquer is the work of the bad guy. As an example, if ALL Christians would have stood together against abortion in the early 60’s when it first came to our attention, I believe we would have saved the lives of MILLIONS of innocent babies. But instead, many denominations fell into the trap of a womens right to her own body. I have a sticker on my car that says, “Pro Choice, thats a lie, Babies don’t choose to die.” Also if All Christians would have stood against homosexuality when it started to stick its ugly head up, it may not be the serious problem it is today. Instead, many denominations have accepted it as another lifestyle and even have homosexual ministers. The same goes for divorce and remarriage, birth control, living together without the benefit of marriage, and so many other evils of our day. The Catholic Church stands strong and tall against them and always has and always will. Maybe all Catholics don’t agree with what the Catholic Church teaches but she doesn’t water down her teachings just to accommodate them. Being “open-minded” is NOT what the Catholic Church teaches when it comes to the TRUTH. As Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen said, “The TRUTH is the truth even if no one believes it and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it.”
P.S. I do not judge others, thats God’s job!!!. I just say what the Catholic Church teaches. God Bless, Memaw.

I can see what I said pretty much just bounced off of you and didn’t sink in, and you probably feel the same about what you sent me. We’ll have to agree to disagree I suppose. Us 2 hard heads are probably not going to change.

 

[mikew262]

One of Jesus’ teachings was that we worship Him in Spirit, and in Truth. Doesn’t it make sense to understand and practice what He meant by that?

And many a Christian thinks he/she is doing just that, Catholic and Non-Catholic.

 

[Memaw]

I can see what I said pretty much just bounced off of you and didn’t sink in, and you probably feel the same about what you sent me. We’ll have to agree to disagree I suppose. Us 2 hard heads are probably not going to change.

Thats a very weak response to all I said… That is why divisions don’t heal.

 

[Memaw]

Good or bad, it was interesting to see that a recent poll revealed that 79% of American Catholics feel that other faiths can lead to salvation besides their own. If this is true, your last sentence may not be entirely accurate anymore.

I have news for you, the Catholic Church doesn’t run on Polls. A recent poll doesn’t guide my faith.

 

[guanophore]

Good or bad, it was interesting to see that a recent poll revealed that 79% of American Catholics feel that other faiths can lead to salvation besides their own. If this is true, your last sentence may not be entirely accurate anymore.

No, Mike, it is accurate. The Truth does not change just becuase 79% (or even 100%) of people don’t believe it, or practice it. It is a travesty that so many Catholics have fallen away from their faith. I was one of them for many years. However, falling away from the faith does not invalidate the faith itself, any more than Judas’ decision to betray Christ invalidated anything that He taught.

 

[Hisalone]

I hope everyone on this thread reads and rereads your posts until they understand why we cherish our Catholic Faith and our belief in the TRUE presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. And why we know the importance of Apostolic succession. Why settle for symbols when you can have the TRUTH. Why settle for self interpretation, yours or anyones else’s, when you can have the Catholic Church, thru the HOLY SPIRIT, guiding you in the true interpretation of Sacred Scripture.
The question at the beginning of this thread IS very important, Why do you settle for less, if you are a Christian, why NOT become a Catholic and have the fullness of the TRUTH that Jesus has taught. What is the real reason? Is it pride, stubbornness, spiritual blindness, family ties, etc,etc,etc. Have you fallen for all the lies thrown at the Catholic Church? Is that more important than the TRUTH? If you really have Jesus first and foremost in your life, don’t you want to know Him in the fullness of HIS Truth? . Why settle for less. You all have heard the truth expressed on this thread, many times, don’t you think its worth the time and effort to find out for yourself what the Catholic Church teaches. Please, don’t listen to Her enimies!! Is your opinion more important that what Christ wants for us.? I hope not. The Catholic Church has come thru many trials and struggles in the past 2,000 years and has continued to teach the fullness of the TRUTH thru it all. That ought to count for something. Only the Holy Spirit could have brought Her thru all that she has endured. And still have all the truths Jesus taught held in her bosom. Sincerely think about it, PRAY about it, if possible, go to a Catholic Church and set there with Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament and talk to HIM from your heart. Isn’t it worth all you can do to find out where the real TRUTH is. God Bless, Memaw.

These posts are off topic. This thread isnt about all that. You are wasting time and band space by tese posts.

 

[Hisalone]

I think what you are perceiving here is the actual perspective of the OP. According to some, there really are no legitimate reasons for not being Catholic. Reasons are chalked up to ignorance (primarily) and along with that inculcation in anti-Catholic bigotry and rebellion (refusal to submit to God’s appointed authority).

Somehow it seems to me that it must be possible to have pride and confidence in one’s faith community and still maintain humility. However, I agree that you are right about an air of arrogance. I experience that too on this Board from Latin Rite Catholics, who seem to think that their Rite is the only, and the most supreme, etc, etc.

What would you consider a “legitimate” reason?

I understand to many there is no legitimate reason for not being Catholic. Yet every objection to the Catholic faith that others hold is pushed aside as not valid by these same folks.
A legitimate reason is God placing someone in another worship community.

 

[mikew262]

Thats a very weak response to all I said… That is why divisions don’t heal.

I have nothing else to say to you. You don’t see my side of the issue, and I don’t agree with you. What else do you want me to say?

If you would agree with me, then this little micro-division between you and me would heal.

BTW, divisions would heal if there was a lot more understanding and acceptance in the world. I’m trying to advocate a little of this in my statements concerning the various faiths, you OTH…

Many a person has died over the years because of the “My faith is better than yours” principle.

 

[mikew262]

I have news for you, the Catholic Church doesn’t run on Polls. A recent poll doesn’t guide my faith.

True, I just was pointing out the trend, good or bad.

 

[mikew262]

No, Mike, it is accurate. The Truth does not change just becuase 79% (or even 100%) of people don’t believe it, or practice it. It is a travesty that so many Catholics have fallen away from their faith. I was one of them for many years. However, falling away from the faith does not invalidate the faith itself, any more than Judas’ decision to betray Christ invalidated anything that He taught.

Like I said, its good or bad. Depends upon your perspective.

 

[guanophore]

I understand to many there is no legitimate reason for not being Catholic. Yet every objection to the Catholic faith that others hold is pushed aside as not valid by these same folks.
A legitimate reason is God placing someone in another worship community.

This is something I can relate to because I had this experience. However, in retrospect, what I believed to be “God placing” me in another community turned out to be me going off looking for HIm there. I made assumptions that Catholcism was wrong, without educating myself about what was taught, and why. God used my experiences in non-Catholic communities for over 20 years, three of them in Protestant Seminary, to convince me that I should never have left. It may be that other fervent Catholics here have come to the same conclusion. It is not that I “push aside” such reasons, but I think they bear exploring. Many times I find that these persons, like I, was misinformed or misapprehending the teachings of the Church.

On the other hand, there are some who just prefer to be in open rebellion, such as so-called Catholics who openly reject the Teachings if the Church. I call them apostates or protestants. Others call them “cafeteria Catholics”. For these, the “real reason” for not being Catholic often lies in gratifying their own desires above pleasing God.

 

[mikew262]

On the other hand, there are some who just prefer to be in open rebellion, such as so-called Catholics who openly reject the Teachings if the Church. I call them apostates or protestants. Others call them “cafeteria Catholics”. For these, the “real reason” for not being Catholic often lies in gratifying their own desires above pleasing God.

Open rebellion? No, I think that’s a little strong. For some reason, some may think the Church is wrong on a particular issue, so they may disagree, but I think calling it open rebellion is a little too dramatic. BTW, a cafeteria Catholic as you call them is still a Catholic. If you are baptized Catholic, you are always Catholic. You may fall away for a time, but you are still a Catholic. Even excommunicated ones are still Catholic, they’ve just been separated from the community.

 

[Hisalone]

This is something I can relate to because I had this experience. However, in retrospect, what I believed to be “God placing” me in another community turned out to be me going off looking for HIm there. I made assumptions that Catholcism was wrong, without educating myself about what was taught, and why. God used my experiences in non-Catholic communities for over 20 years, three of them in Protestant Seminary, to convince me that I should never have left. It may be that other fervent Catholics here have come to the same conclusion. It is not that I “push aside” such reasons, but I think they bear exploring. Many times I find that these persons, like I, was misinformed or misapprehending the teachings of the Church.

On the other hand, there are some who just prefer to be in open rebellion, such as so-called Catholics who openly reject the Teachings if the Church. I call them apostates or protestants. Others call them “cafeteria Catholics”. For these, the “real reason” for not being Catholic often lies in gratifying their own desires above pleasing God.

So we get back to the first point, that being that for many there is no legitimate reason for not being Catholic. If someone believes that Catholicism is perfect then anyone ourside of it is just reflecting thier own (name removed by moderator)erfection.
I on the other hand do not see Catholicism as perfect.

 

[thirdn6]

I hope everyone on this thread reads and rereads your posts until they understand why we cherish our Catholic Faith and our belief in the TRUE presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. And why we know the importance of Apostolic succession. Why settle for symbols when you can have the TRUTH. Why settle for self interpretation, yours or anyones else’s, when you can have the Catholic Church, thru the HOLY SPIRIT, guiding you in the true interpretation of Sacred Scripture.
The question at the beginning of this thread IS very important, Why do you settle for less, if you are a Christian, why NOT become a Catholic and have the fullness of the TRUTH that Jesus has taught. What is the real reason? Is it pride, stubbornness, spiritual blindness, family ties, etc,etc,etc. Have you fallen for all the lies thrown at the Catholic Church? Is that more important than the TRUTH? If you really have Jesus first and foremost in your life, don’t you want to know Him in the fullness of HIS Truth? . Why settle for less. You all have heard the truth expressed on this thread, many times, don’t you think its worth the time and effort to find out for yourself what the Catholic Church teaches. Please, don’t listen to Her enimies!! Is your opinion more important that what Christ wants for us.? I hope not. The Catholic Church has come thru many trials and struggles in the past 2,000 years and has continued to teach the fullness of the TRUTH thru it all. That ought to count for something. Only the Holy Spirit could have brought Her thru all that she has endured. And still have all the truths Jesus taught held in her bosom. Sincerely think about it, PRAY about it, if possible, go to a Catholic Church and set there with Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament and talk to HIM from your heart. Isn’t it worth all you can do to find out where the real TRUTH is. God Bless, Memaw.

may God bless you!

After baptism many people chose not to stay or refuse to stay within the fold of the Catholic church- one reason maybe is that we are identified with the cross of Christ.

They are in the threshold of living a true Christian life, in the way that Jesus revealed to us. They are at the door of the kingdom invited to their lifetime nourishment from the bread of life until His return. Instead, they chose to step away, build their own campgrounds around the kingdom, imitate the “works”, considered them truths and formulate their own beliefs. Isn’t that satisfying and fulfilling? To be away from the “heat” inside the kingdom? Who says they are disobeying God? Maybe only the learned. Worse, it may be a form of blasphemy or idolatry that they’re doing. And still they consider themselves legitimate heirs to the kingdom. Don’t they know that they are to perish if they do not receive, constantly, the true bread from heaven? Leaves that are cut off from the branch will eventually wither? Members that are separated from the body will inevitably die? We are of the same baptism. All Christians, at that. But after that baptism, either we ask God to increase our faith based on His teachings or choose to lose the grace based upon our own disobedience and sins. After baptism, either we choose to start living or we choose to start dying. I used to hear this on the radio…

“There’s a time to live and a time to die
When it’s time to meet the maker
There’s a time to live but isn’t it strange
That as soon as you’re born you’re dying… “

Isn’t it strange that as soon as some are baptized they start to die…?