If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic?

[CalmDownWisWins]

Proof of purgatory would be an explanation of how it is necessary. I’ve seen Scripture references, the idea that we pray for the dead as support, etc. What I do not understand is what I see as the concept of Jesus having paid for all our sins, yet us still having to pay for them.

Jesus hasn’t PAID ransom-bucks for our sins from some kidnapper. He’s allowed us to accept forgiveness from Him if we repent of our self-attachments to our “comfortable” sins.

Purgatory is where you are cleansed of your attachments to your forgiven sins.

Why should a mass murderer be allowed a “free ride” even if he truly contritely repents of his sins at his death, as compared to a Saint?

It’s only fair that this person’s violence to the Body of Christ be fully recognized as such by the inflictor, and that is what purgatory is for.

 

[mgrfin]

By the grace of God I am squarely in the “culpably rejecting camp”.

Don’t blame your rejection of the one true Church founded by Jesus Christ on ‘the grace of God’. He had nothing to do with your rejection.

peace

 

[Jimmy_B]

Posted by Jimmy B.

It is hard enough to avoid sin when we try to surround ourselves with the people who are trying to live a good Christian life and it becomes more difficult when we allow people into our lives, who have no interest in avoiding sin, or with obeying the law.

In the secular world, a policeman can lose his job for simply “associating" with a known felon. This is because he (the policeman) is held to a higher standard of conduct. Moreover, a person may not be granted a security clearance, based on whom he associates with, the reason for this, I believe is self-evident.

God’s standard of conduct is much higher than any created in this world and if anyone reading this doesn’t believe me, they haven’t read much of the bible or they are in denial.

Now take this one-step further, “Parents”; a parent’s job is very difficult under the best of circumstances and becomes almost untenable when we allow external negative influences, which we have control over, access to our children.

A parent’s main responsibility to their child is to protect them and teach them to know, love, respect and obey God. That’s it, that is their mission in life. When two people (by the divine will of God) bring a pure, innocence precious baby into this world, they must protect that child, in this world and keep them safe and this includes keeping their soul safe.

Kid’s are on loan to us from God and at some point in time He wants them back. Families cannot stay together in heaven if they become separated here on earth by sin.

I hate to use the “S” word, SIN, but when we don’t use it (the word sin), because it makes us feel uncomfortable, it becomes something that get’s rationalized away. Sin might go away in ones conscience but it never really goes away. That is why we must constantly remind each other.

Humility is the spark that lights the fire called guilt, guilt leads us to remorse, remorse, causes us to reconcile with our Father in heaven and it is then that we are forgiven (healed) and re-united with Him.

Parents need to help strengthen their child’s conscience; this becomes nearly impossible when there exists, others in their lives who want to undermine it.

Christians need to be honest and firm with themselves and one another. This is hard today, because so many people are so sensitive and because of inflated ego’s.

When it comes to pointing out sin, even though at times it may “hurt someone’s feelings”, we may even alienate others; it is still our responsibility to God, our Creator to point it out.

If we all waited until we were perfect and sinless to discuss sin, it would never be discussed at all.

If we truly loved our neighbor, we would all try to help each other avoid sin. Pointing out sin should never anger a Christian. Avoiding one who sins or avoiding the appearance of sin, should never anger a Christian.

If it doesn’t apply to you (in general) then good for you, if it does, change your behavior because you are messing it up for the rest of us who want to have a good life and go to heaven.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hello Ginger2

Ginger2 wrote;
OK, you got me, I left the Catholic Church to whore around for 3 years…or was it four? I was drinking so much, I guess I lost track of time.

I stopped drinking when my 4th husband threatened to divorce me, but then I left him for the pool boy.

Very funny, however I am somewhat puzzled by your tone and your “personal” response, especially considering that, nothing I posted here was directed personally towards you, I don’t even know who you are, I am assuming you are a nice person. . I am sorry if the subject if this thread bothers you, but I based my comments here on my own, real experiences. I believe that if you searched, you will find some truth in my comments, on this forum and on some Protestant forums as well.

Ginger2 wrote;
***What do you think would happen if a Protestant started a thread like this? ***

I would hope that an honest dialog would begin and that the people that this topic applied to would add their thoughts to this discussion.

Ginger2 wrote;
What if I had said that most men who become Priests do it to gain trusted access to little boys?

I would say that I disagree with you, and then explain why.

I am assuming, since you spend so much time here, that you are a good person and a good Christian; maybe this thread caught you on a bad day… I hope we can have a better, friendlier discussion on another thread.

Ginger2 wrote;
I think it’s time for me to leave this forum. The judgemental, self-righteous, and moral superior attitude is beginning to make me ill.

I know at times when someone attempts to defend a position or in this case, my attempt to defend my faith, Catholicism, it might at times appear, “judgmental”, self-righteous” and all the rest but I can assure you I don not intend it to.

I am I little rough around the edges and my adult daughter say’s, I am too “blunt” at times; she is right. Nevertheless, I can’t help it, it is in my nature. We are all different, I like straight talk and I am not “modern” or ‘sensitive” man and I am not a kid.

I am use to being around others who are “thick-skinned” and I am not well suited to “walking on eggshells” in my discussions with others. That doesn’t mean that I am not a nice or polite person, I am. It just means I might come across as blunt to someone who doesn’t know me, or to a person who is not use to; or comfortable with direct comments.

I always pray for humility but in reading your response, I need to pray more (for humility). It might also help if you prayed for me.

I hope you do not leave, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ and you have a lot to offer. This forum doesn’t work without apposing viewpoints.

I hope that forgiveness and understanding will rule the day. We all benefit from this Forum; because it is here, we talk about Jesus. Please forgive me. And, if it makes you feel better, I get a little frustrated here at times, so a take a break, but then I come back…

 

[paarsurrey]

I feel that many of the Catholic dissenters here who love to quote Bible verses and argue against Catholicism have a personal reason for not being Catholic and not a biblical reason.

Hi

I am an Ahmadi a peaceful Muslim.
What I have understood with discussions going on here on this forum is that the Catholics give more credence to ** ChurchTradition ** rather than the ** Scriptures **. The ChurchTradition is first and the Scriptures second source of guidance to Catholics, please correct me if I am wrong. Christianity minus Catholicism is what they term as Protestantism; the prefer Scriptures on the ChurchTradition, Scriptures is their primary source of guidance and the ChurchTradition is secondary to them.

So the Protestants would always have to differ with the Catholics unless this principled stance is resolved amicably. In fact if this is resolved, that could pave way to unite both Catholicism and Protestantism.

Thanks

 

[c659smith]

Paarsurrey;

Till around the 14/15th century there was only Catholics (Christians) and then the reformation occurred.

Now Catholics as the Apostles were sent out utizes a combination of

Sacred Scriptures (the Bible)
Sacred Teachings (the Cathechism)
Sacred Traditions ( History )

You cannot rremove the heart,the brain, and the mouth and expect the body to work.

Jesus please remain in my mind, heart, and mouth with what I do here on earth.

One is not given more creedence over the other. For this is the Church and as such all is necessary and is what makes Jesus’s Church infallible.

That real presence of Christ is a paracea for the protestants and Catholics.

For Catholics Jesus comes again and is with us each time in the Eucharist. Jesus’s (body,blood,soul,and divinity) The real Christ is there.

The doctrine of transubstantiation, the teaching that bread and wine are converted into the actual flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, is difficult. When Christ first told his followers of it, many rejected him. But Jesus did not clarify his statement or correct their misunderstanding. He simply repeated his command to the disciples at the Last Supper. Some Christians today still have trouble accepting this teaching.

We also have Adoration where Christ is present in a monstrous and why Friday night I went to see Him sor about an hour and asked for guidance.

We are not hung up on revelation in the Bible as yes he will return to judge the living and the dead. Unveil the curtain and send Satan for all time into hell and there will be a new heaven and new earth but revelation to me is that I must be ready for then but be ready also when my own life on this earth is done.

 

[paarsurrey]

Sacred Teachings (the Cathechism)
.

Hi

I am an Ahmadi a peaceful Muslim. I understand from the Sacred Scriptures of Catholics as the NTBible, though to me it is not the ScripturesProper. Nevertheless I want to understand about “**Sacred Teachings **(the Cathechism)”. I have right now searched for it in the wikipedia:

A catechism (pronounced /ˈkætəkɪzəm/; Ancient Greek: κατηχισμός) is a summary or exposition of doctrine, traditionally used in Christian religious teaching from New Testament times to the present.[1] Catechisms are doctrinal manuals often in the form of questions followed by answers to be memorized, a format that has been used in non-religious or secular contexts as well.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathechism

Would you please tell me, if it has been correctly defined for the Catholics also?

I find several Cathechisms there:

2 Catholic catechisms
2.1 Roman Catechism
2.2 Baltimore Catechism
2.3 Catechism of the Catholic Church
3 Reformation catechisms
3.1 Among the Lutherans
3.1.1 Genevan Catechism
3.2 Reformed
3.2.1 Heidelberg Catechism
3.2.2 Westminster Catechisms
3.2.3 Other Reformed catechisms
3.3 Anglican Catechism
3.4 Socinian and other sectarian catechisms

Are all these Sacred Cathechisms? If not why?

Thanks

 

[c659smith]

The first 4 are Cathechisms of the Catholic Church past and present.

The others are after the reformation and that is when the
protest-ant

Protestant churches began.

Are the others Sacred well thats not for me to decide but I doubt it as it did not come from Christ’s Church

 

[O.S.Luke]

You have said that in a perfect world, the Catholic Church is the true Church.

I don’t understand how you can stay in your church if you believe that. Aren’t you afraid of damnation for not listening to the prompting of God’s grace, and joining the Catholic Church.

peace

I would be afraid of damnation if I withheld Christ’s body and blood from a professing and repenting Christian. In a perfect world, that wouldn’t be an issue. That’s why I cannot be Catholic.

It makes no sense to want unity yet withhold Christ’s body and blood from some Christians. And yes… I fully understand the Catholic Church’s stance on the issue. And, with respect, I think it’s wrong.

 

[O.S.Luke]

I don’t know what answering these questions will do.

In your congregation, are all of any age free to receive the eucharist? I assume they are baptized.

Yes, just as in Orthodoxy.

Do they profess faith that this is the body of Christ like we say amen when the priest says Body of Christ?

Yes. The usual presentations are “The body/blood, given for you.” Or “The body of Christ, the bread of heaven… The blood of Christ, the cup of salvation.” The response is “Amen” or “Thanks be to God.”

Do you consume all of the consecrated species? If not, do you have a tabernacle so that the body of Christ can be taken to the sick or the dying?

All of the consecrated elements are not always consumed. Some will be taken to the sick or those in hospitals. After that, they will either be consumed or interred. Some sacristies have a sacrarium where the elements may be poured that goes to the earth.

Do you have communion often, every Sunday?

Depends on the church. I have served churches that did. Many have communion during mid-week services.

Do you say the same words as Catholic priests to consecrate? Thanks.

The epiclesis in Word and Table I the one I quoted earlier:
Pour out your Holy Spirit on us and on these gifts
of bread and wine; make them be for us the body and blood of Christ,
that we may be for the world the body of Christ, redeemed by His Blood.

All of this is moot, since your next response is that since we’re not validly ordained, we cannot ‘confect’ the Eucharist. I would simply say that, to be honest, I suspect God could care less.

 

[c659smith]

O.S. Luke,

Have you read in the Bible where Christ said to the Apostles and only to the Apostles and their successors.

What sins you forgive are forgiven and those sins you retain are retained.

I read that as a direct statement by Christ to. The Apostles***

I am sure you agree with scripture that if one does not confess aloud and to the Apostles or their successors that those sins I committ maybe retained as they have yet to be forgiven.

Now why do you think Christ gave that responsibility to His Apostles?

 

[O.S.Luke]

O.S. Luke,

Have you read in the Bible where Christ said to the Apostles and only to the Apostles and their successors.

What sins you forgive are forgiven and those sins you retain are retained.

I read that as a direct statement by Christ to. The Apostles***

I am sure you agree with scripture that if one does not confess aloud and to the Apostles or their successors that those sins I committ maybe retained as they have yet to be forgiven.

Now why do you think Christ gave that responsibility to His Apostles?

My church considers itself an apostolic church - we recite the Nicene Creed. We also have Repentance, Confession, and Pardon anytime before receiving the Eucharist.

Again, as I told Claire, since you will say next that our priests/pastors are not validly ordained, it becomes somewhat of a strawman argument and pointless conversation. So I suspect this conversation will end as I will obviously disagree with you.

Pax,

O+

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Is.

If becoming Catholic means adopting the arrogant attitude that I see here with some, no thanks.

Not to sound arrogant but that statement of arrogance can be applied to a lot of the non Catholic that come to this forum.

As for your feelings about the church that you currently belong to let me share with you that when I was 4 my parents divorced. we no longer went to Mass and I eventually joined the Baptist church with my grandmother at age nine as it was on weekend that i spent with her that I was ever in a church. At 12 year old in moved from my fathers house and in with my mother I started going to the Catholic church with with her. I still would go to the baptist church that i was a member of with my grandmother on weekends spent with her ( which was about 2 weekend a month) I would also spend one weekend a month with my father with no church that weekend. At age 12 I knew that the Catholic Church was the church and began the step to become a full member of it. In doing so I had to tell my grandmother that I was leaving her church. Know this is no a easy thing for a 12 year old to do.

The point of the story is that Its not a matter of what got you to going to church it about ( for me anyway) Jesus established One Church and out side of Catholic church you have denominations that came into being only because the founder refused to submit to the authority of the Church.

Now did Luther have some valid points? more than likely yes. did he and the leaders at the time over react? Again more than like yes. Could the union of all of Christianity become a reality? Yes, but it would take the present day members for all the different churches, as well as the Bishops of the Catholic Church to sit down and say the feud is over.

 

[fbl9]

Not to sound arrogant but that statement of arrogance can be applied to a lot of the non Catholic that come to this forum.

As for your feelings about the church that you currently belong to let me share with you that when I was 4 my parents divorced. we no longer went to Mass and I eventually joined the Baptist church with my grandmother at age nine as it was on weekend that i spent with her that I was ever in a church. At 12 year old in moved from my fathers house and in with my mother I started going to the Catholic church with with her. I still would go to the baptist church that i was a member of with my grandmother on weekends spent with her ( which was about 2 weekend a month) I would also spend one weekend a month with my father with no church that weekend. At age 12 I knew that the Catholic Church was the church and began the step to become a full member of it. In doing so I had to tell my grandmother that I was leaving her church. Know this is no a easy thing for a 12 year old to do.

The point of the story is that Its not a matter of what got you to going to church it about ( for me anyway) Jesus established One Church and out side of Catholic church you have denominations that came into being only because the founder refused to submit to the authority of the Church.

Now did Luther have some valid points? more than likely yes. did he and the leaders at the time over react? Again more than like yes. Could the union of all of Christianity become a reality? Yes, but it would take the present day members for all the different churches, as well as the Bishops of the Catholic Church to sit down and say the feud is over.

hi oneGodonechurch this is fbl9 i have to agree most sincerely with your last two paragraghs. pride is one of our,i mean all christians, greatest enemy. which would have to over come if there is to be any unity. may God help us amen.

 

[c659smith]

O.S. Luke

I hope the conversation will never end until re-unification takes hold and we are together in the arms of our Lord.

How do you consider your Church Apostolic?

 

[Harpazo]

My church considers itself an apostolic church - we recite the Nicene Creed. We also have Repentance, Confession, and Pardon anytime before receiving the Eucharist.

Again, as I told Claire, since you will say next that our priests/pastors are not validly ordained, it becomes somewhat of a strawman argument and pointless conversation. So I suspect this conversation will end as I will obviously disagree with you.

Pax,

O+

What you consider to be Confession is not confession in the Catholic/Orthodox sense or in the Scriptural sense. I don’t understand your reasoning at all behind being an Apostolic Church. Wesley was never an Anglican Bishop. At the time of Wesley’s movement the Anglican community might have had Apostolic Succession. However, he decided, while an Anglican minister, to ordain his own ministers. He has no power to do that, because Sacred Scripture forbades such a thing, as you know I’m sure. Just by confessing the Nicene Creed doesn’t make you Apostolic.

In all the Methodist communities I’ve been in, which have been a good amount, they never ever interred the grape juice or bread, or even recognized it as a Sacrament. Many people take home the bread and eat it with their lunch, or just toss out to the birds. Some I’ve seen take the juice and do “communion shots,” which was a tradition at the Methodist community I was a part of before coming Home. Maybe you do. But there are only parts of the UM community that profess this, as I’ve read that Methodists are trying to return to the Early Christian belief. To me it sounds like you’re trying to be Catholic in name, without actually being Catholic. You’re obviously a Traditional Methodist and I’m don’t think those are in the majority.

Now, as a Methodist clergymen you are required to give what you call communion to anyone who professes a faith in Christ, right? Even if they that faith is heretical by Methodist standards. Even if they aren’t baptized?

I’m just curious, because the reasoning behind this doesn’t sound right to me. Praying for you.

Pace e Bene
Andrew

 

[mgrfin]

My church considers itself an apostolic church - we recite the Nicene Creed. We also have Repentance, Confession, and Pardon anytime before receiving the Eucharist.

Again, as I told Claire, since you will say next that our priests/pastors are not validly ordained, it becomes somewhat of a strawman argument and pointless conversation. So I suspect this conversation will end as I will obviously disagree with you.

Pax,

O+

You know the arguments, and they are not strawmen. If they were, you could knock them down.

It does sound like "Catholics, see, we are just like you. Except we don’t have a priesthood, and we came into existence around the 17th Century. Without a priesthood, we have no valid Eucharist, and no valid Sacrament of Penance

It’s all that wanna be Catholic stuff all over. Why don’t you just join the Catholic Church and do away with all the doubt.

Oh, you can’t do that now cause Protestantism is your job. What would you do if you lost your job? Better that than lose your soul.

peace

 

[O.S.Luke]

What you consider to be Confession is not confession in the Catholic/Orthodox sense or in the Scriptural sense. I don’t understand your reasoning at all behind being an Apostolic Church. Wesley was never an Anglican Bishop. At the time of Wesley’s movement the Anglican community might have had Apostolic Succession. However, he decided, while an Anglican minister, to ordain his own ministers. He has no power to do that, because Sacred Scripture forbades such a thing, as you know I’m sure. Just by confessing the Nicene Creed doesn’t make you Apostolic.

We obviously disagree.

In all the Methodist communities I’ve been in, which have been a good amount, they never ever interred the grape juice or bread, or even recognized it as a Sacrament. Many people take home the bread and eat it with their lunch, or just toss out to the birds.

In all the Methodist communities I’ve been in, I’ve never heard of such things - certainly no one taking home the bread and eating it with lunch or feeding it to the birds. That is abhorrent, and would be to every colleague and church member I know of.

Some I’ve seen take the juice and do “communion shots,” which was a tradition at the Methodist community I was a part of before coming Home. Maybe you do. But there are only parts of the UM community that profess this, as I’ve read that Methodists are trying to return to the Early Christian belief. To me it sounds like you’re trying to be Catholic in name, without actually being Catholic. You’re obviously a Traditional Methodist and I’m don’t think those are in the majority.

I’m not trying to be anything but faithful, and to be honest, what other Christians do, Methodist or otherwise, is really irrelevant. I’ve been around traditional Methodists all of my life, and I have been active at the general and international church level. I’m not discounting your experience, but I think it is the exception rather than the rule.

I have several friends who are Catholic. Everyone one of them uses birth control (or used it). I don’t pigeonhole all Catholics, nor the Catholic faith, however, by these folks.

Now, as a Methodist clergymen you are required to give what you call communion to anyone who professes a faith in Christ, right? Even if they that faith is heretical by Methodist standards. Even if they aren’t baptized?

First of all - it is communion/Eucharist. The “what you call communion” phrase you used above is demeaning and offensive to me and to my faith. Nice jab, though.

The short answer to your question is, “no.”

I will serve anyone who can answer the invitation, and respond with repentance and confess the Confession of Sin. If I knowingly know that someone did not answer the invitation and confession or has no intention of living in love and charity with their neighbor or in being faithful and obedient to the church and to Christ, then no, i would not serve them. If I know they aren’t baptized and have no intentions of being baptized, no, I would not serve them. If they are answering the invitation and confession of sin, and not baptized, I would confront them and ask them why they aren’t baptized.

I have several who attend the church I am serving who are not baptized, and they do not come forward to receive the eucharist. I have several lapsed Catholics who attend; some come forward, some do not.

I’m just curious, because the reasoning behind this doesn’t sound right to me. Praying for you.

Pace e Bene
Andrew

Andrew… you have come across as pretty condescending. You insult the eucharist I partake in (yes, I am well aware you don’t think it valid or licit), then you tell me that my reasoning “doesn’t sound right to me.” You then say “praying for you” - as if I am the poor Protestant who needs pitied. And then you wish me peace and goodness (Pace e Bene)?

Maybe you feel like you can do no other without compromising your own faith; I certainly don’t want anyone compromising their faith. This leads me to wonder if these are really productive conversations - since your faith, tradition, and Church is obviously superior to mine (and I guess a Catholic can think no other). On the other hand, I see myself and my faith tradition and Church as no more, and no less, than yours.

Maybe these conversations are not helpful for building up the Body of Christ. Do we need to continue them - or are we noisy gongs and clanging cymbals?

Pax vobiscum,

O+

 

[O.S.Luke]

It does sound like "Catholics, see, we are just like you. Except we don’t have a priesthood, and we came into existence around the 17th Century. Without a priesthood, we have no valid Eucharist, and no valid Sacrament of Penance

It’s all that wanna be Catholic stuff all over.

I guess you can hear whatever you like and editorialize as you wish. Doesn’t mean it’s true. I want to be faithful. I don’t want to be Catholic - even less so at this moment, I fear.

Oh, you can’t do that now cause Protestantism is your job. What would you do if you lost your job? Better that than lose your soul.

If it’s just my job, then I quit. The pay is lousy and the time off is non-existent. If I “lost my job”, as you put it, there are no shortages of ways I could make a livelihood, and make a lot more money for my family. I still don’t know how I’m going to send my kid to college.

Ministry is my vocation and calling. I can do no other, and spent years agonizing and in spiritual direction discerning so. I would lose my soul otherwise.

Are all Catholics as charitable as you, Mgrfin? (Don’t worry - I’m not going to judge all Catholics by your responses).

O+

 

[Harpazo]

O.S Luke,

I apologize if I came off as condescending, such was not my intention. However, if I might add, you yourself have come off in a similar manner. You give off an aire of trying to be Catholic without giving up your Protestant Methodism. We both know that Methodists do not have a Sacrament of Penance. It’s just a generalized confession of sins during the service similar to the Rite of Penance in Catholic Liturgies.

I still can’t fathom how you consider Methodism as having Apostolic succession, considering how parts are contrary to the Apostolic Faith. Can you further explain this? I think you probably weren’t able to go into it with as much detail as you would have liked.

Pace e Bene
Andrew