If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic?

[AutumnSakura]

If anyone is interested in the topic of gender dynamics in the Church, I would highly recommend that they read The Church Impotent by Leon Podles. It’s very enlightening. It’s strange for me to hear people who still claim the Church is “overly masculine”. Go into any RC or Protestant church and what do you see? Women. Women in almost every role (even as pastor or “priestess” in some places), essentially running the parishes. Most Protestant music these days sounds like fluffy love songs straight from the pop radio station, except to Jesus. It’s rather creepy, if you ask me.

I’m not a Roman Catholic for a number of reasons. Most of my extended family is RC, and growing up I remember going to Mass with my cousins, but I was raised in a Protestant household. I could see that there was something there that was missing in my Protestant church, but it never seemed quite right. Even as a small child I knew Christ was real, but I hated going to church, and never got real answers to my questions. Everything seemed so fake and “sales-oriented”. In college, I was randomly invited to an Orthodox Church. From that first Divine Liturgy, I knew I was going to convert. The Orthodox Church had the Tradition, Liturgy, and spiritual counseling I desperately needed. I believe it is the Church founded by Christ on earth, and that the Roman Patriarchate erred grievously with its Papal claims and the filioque.
I greatly appreciate the strong emphasis on ascetical practices in the Orthodox Church, and the knowledge that I can walk into any Orthodox Church anywhere in the world and be spiritually safe. The only “one-size-fits-all” rule for fasting and works of mercy is that they will challenge you like nothing else. This seems very different from what seems like a rote approach to these things my Catholic friends and family take: as long as they eat fish on Fridays, they’re ok; as long as they go to confession once a year, they’re ok; as long as they “give up” something for Lent, they’re ok, etc. Another factor (and this is probably just personal preference) is that I’ve always felt that Orthodox Churches have a warmer feel, that the icons are inviting you to participate in the worship in a dynamic way that statues never have.

And there’s no lack of men in any given Orthodox Church.

 

[guanophore]

fbl9:

“Go be fruitful and multiply.” I believe every human being has multiple capacities to be fruitful without multiplying. Thinkers, artists, caregivers, inventors - anyone with an idea can be fruitful. Anyone with a talent or a gift can be fruitful.

When God first reportedly commanded that we “be fruitful and multiply”, the population of this planet was scant in comparison to today’s 6,650,000,000. That’s an astonishing amount of multiplying, some of which is accidental, some of which is a direct result of failure to control fertility and desire.

When I look around and see children struggling because they were born into a toxic environment or a loveless union, I wonder about God’s edict. Surely He must have anticipated this result. And since He didn’t go wrong, we must have. It’s a pathetic statement about sexuality, free will, and the base nature of human beings. We want what we want when we want it. Please, no lectures about love between partners and every child being a blessing. Maybe you live in that bubble, but many people do not.

marietta

I am certainly in agreement with you here. Having been the product of such parents, and such an environment, I can testify without doubt that we have certainly failed to implement God’s concept of “family”.

Are you thinking that committing another sin (birth control/abortion) is an effective way to address the first sin?

 

[marietta]

guanophore:

Although born into Roman Catholicism, I have deliberately moved far afield and do not consider artificial birth control to be sinful.

I am pro-choice; it is God’s job to judge the choices others make, not mine. If asked for guidance on any matter, I offer options without prejudice and allow that person to choose his or her path with whatever consequences may be attached. I don’t meddle, I don’t preach, I don’t try to persuade, I just explain the options.

onmyknees:

Nice argument: articulate and dreamy, though I’ve never seen anything resembling the relationship(s) you describe, Catholic or not. If it makes you happy, terrific.

marietta

 

[onmyknees]

Marietta,
I agree with you that we should let others choose their own path but we are called to love our neighbor and loving your neighbor means that you want the best for them, to spend eternity with Jesus in heaven. Jesus will do the judging when we die but we ARE called to judge others’ evil choices. We are called to teach them the Truth. Every man has natural law in their conscience. Knowing what is good or evil. Although some have had their consciences desensitized by the world and others have had their consciences malformed. Sin always hurts the sinner. Abortion not only kills the most innocent but also deeply wounds the parents. Who will protect these innocent who can not speak for themselves?

 

[marietta]

onmyknees:
“. . . to spend eternity with Jesus in heaven . …” This is part of your Truth. Carry the message, but don’t be surprised when others cannot hear or accept it.

As far as protecting the innocents who cannot speak for themselves, that sounds like a job for God. Or does He not permit the unborn to see His face?

marietta

 

[onmyknees]

Marietta,
Why is it that we try to protect ourselves from murderers and other types of evil doers by having just laws and law enforcement? To answer the question if the aborted babies will see God’s face. Catechism 1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God.
Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused Him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.

 

[guanophore]

Although born into Roman Catholicism, I have deliberately moved far afield and do not consider artificial birth control to be sinful.

Do you think that your consideration changes the facts?

I am pro-choice; it is God's job to judge the choices others make, not mine.  If asked for guidance on *any* matter, I offer options without prejudice and allow that person to choose his or her path with whatever consequences may be attached.  I don't meddle, I don't preach, I don't try to persuade, I just explain the options.

Yeah, I used to do that too.It took a long time for me to value the Life that God creates when a man and a woman come together. My conscience was also seared, as with a hot iron, and took a long time and a lot of prayer to heal.

I pray that you will also find healing in all these matters.

Nice argument: articulate and dreamy, though I’ve never seen anything resembling the relationship(s) you describe, Catholic or not. If it makes you happy, terrific.

marietta

 

[guanophore]

onmyknees:
“. . . to spend eternity with Jesus in heaven . …” This is part of your Truth. Carry the message, but don’t be surprised when others cannot hear or accept it.

As far as protecting the innocents who cannot speak for themselves, that sounds like a job for God. Or does He not permit the unborn to see His face?

marietta

We do entrust murdered innocents to the grace of God. But those of us who fail to speak up on their behalf will be guilty of their blood. If you stand by and watch while the innocent are robbed of life, how will you stand before God? I don’t direct this question to you personally, or expect and answer, but to all of us.

Ezek 3:18
18 If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand.

 

[Jimmy_B]

We do entrust murdered innocents to the grace of God. But those of us who fail to speak up on their behalf will be guilty of their blood. If you stand by and watch while the innocent are robbed of life, how will you stand before God? I don’t direct this question to you personally, or expect and answer, but to all of us.

Ezek 3:18
18 If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand.

Nice post, guanophore, I agree and I think that the, "Nine ways of being an accessory to another’s sin" might helpful here.

Nine ways of being an accessory to another’s sin.
**1.**By Counsel
**2.**By Command
**3.**By Consent
**4.**By Concealment
**5.**By Defense of Evil Done
**6.**By Partaking
**7.**By Provocation
**8.**By Praise
**9.**By Silence

---

Does anybody here disagree with this?

 

[marietta]

guanophore:
If no conception takes place there is no “murder”. You are speaking in terms of intent. The intent which drives the act of conception is between the intimacy participants and God. You do have the choice to voice your dismay at what others decide for themselves, but you are stepping over the line of individual free will when you condemn. If contraception is considered “evil”, and you are not practicing it, then why peek through the blinds to see if someone else might be in a state of sin? How is your taking their moral inventory going to make anything better for any of you?

Just an aside: does male self-gratification “rob” the innocent of life?

Wondering,

marietta

 

[guanophore]

guanophore:
If no conception takes place there is no “murder”. You are speaking in terms of intent. The intent which drives the act of conception is between the intimacy participants and God. You do have the choice to voice your dismay at what others decide for themselves, but you are stepping over the line of individual free will when you condemn.

I have to agree with the first part of this. If there is not a conception, it is not a murder. But to prevent the conception is also a sin, frustrating the gift and intention of God.

If contraception is considered “evil”, and you are not practicing it, then why peek through the blinds to see if someone else might be in a state of sin? How is your taking their moral inventory going to make anything better for any of you?

I am not able to “take a moral inventory” of anyone but myself(and have my hands full with that) However, I am responsible to respond to behavaiors in my environment that damage the innocent, and perpetrate evil. If I look out my blinds and see someone in front of my house beating someone, or raping someone, and I don’t take some action, then I might as well be standing there holding the coat of the perpetrator. Contraception has created a culture of death in which I now live.

Just an aside: does male self-gratification “rob” the innocent of life?

I don’t think it matters if it is male, female, or the abortionist profession (which makes a lot of money). Self gratification of any kind is fruit of the Robber.

 

[marietta]

guanophone:

Please explain your “fruit of the Robber” theory. I don’t understand your terminology or the sameness between sexes in this matter.

Thanks.

marietta

 

[fbl9]

hi again marietta the fruit of the robber.ie fruit of the prince of darkness… sex by oneself is self gratification… no matter the sex,there is no physical jioning of the partners ie made into 1 flesh through marriage.

 

[guanophore]

guanophone:

Please explain your “fruit of the Robber” theory. I don’t understand your terminology or the sameness between sexes in this matter.

Thanks.

marietta

It is not a “theory” of mine!

John 10:10
10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy;

John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

There really is a devil, marietta, and he is the father of lies, and the chief Robber. Falsehood and murder are the fruit of his nature.

 

[marietta]

Afternoon.

So what you’re telling me is that every single time a human being pursues sexual gratification it must be with the intent to create new life or it is a sin? guanophore, I don’t see how your post pertains to my inquiry. I made my question as direct as I could without offending anyone. And this dance around fertility seems like it, as it, too, frustrates the “gift and intention of God”. Wouldn’t sexual relations during an infertile time constitute lust? Please don’t try to infer that the minds of men and women engaged in sex are filled with images of Jesus, Mary and Joseph.
Sex is salacious and wanton, hardly chase and pure. It is a base human act which prioritizes carnal satisfaction. An expression of “love”? How do couples get from point A to point B? Through lust.

I’m sure you have an explanation.

marietta

 

[guanophore]

Afternoon.

So what you’re telling me is that every single time a human being pursues sexual gratification it must be with the intent to create new life or it is a sin?

I don’t think that is quite right. The Church teaches that sexual activity is reserved for the marital embrace, and that it must be free (unfettered) self giving love.

I don’t think “human pursuit of sexual gratification” was ever part of God’s plan. It results from a fall from grace, and is a work of the flesh. Such works result in a separation from God, which is why they are called mortal sins.

**guanophore**, I don't see how your post pertains to my inquiry.  I made my question as direct as I could without offending anyone.  And this dance around fertility seems like it, as it, too, frustrates the "gift and intention of God".  Wouldn't sexual relations during an infertile time constitute lust?

This probably belongs on another thread. But, no, in fact, the Church encourages couples that are not ready for another child to limit their marital relations to infertile times.

Please don’t try to infer that the minds of men and women engaged in sex are filled with images of Jesus, Mary and Joseph.

You know, if they were, we would have a much healthier society, less death and murder (culture of life instead of death) and more fulfilled marriages.

Sex is salacious and wanton, hardly chase and pure. It is a base human act which prioritizes carnal satisfaction. An expression of “love”? How do couples get from point A to point B? Through lust.

This is a fallen conception of human sexuality. Nothing that God has created is salacious and wanted, or lacking in purity. Since He created it, and He has revealed that it is a type of His relationship with His people, it is not about carnal satisfaction.

I commend to you the Theology of the Body.

I’m sure you have an explanation.

marietta

I think Pope John Paul II gave a good one in that work.

 

[marietta]

guanophore:
Your explanations are beautifully worded and refer to an ideal; I just don’t see it, have never seen it, and don’t believe that human beings are capable of such continual selflessness.

If this is what Confession was designed for, then any act of self can be confessed, absolution granted, penance performed and off we go into another selfless act. What has God to say on repeat offenders, particularly as it relates to contraception? Abortion, murder, anything can be confessed and forgiven, repeatedly if necessary. Where is the deterrent?

Thanks.

marietta

 

[guanophore]

guanophore:
Your explanations are beautifully worded and refer to an ideal; I just don’t see it, have never seen it, and don’t believe that human beings are capable of such continual selflessness.

Oh I couldn’t agree more! Without God everything we do is like filthy rags. I think that our culture has lost the intention and consciousness for which God created sex, and it has become the corrupted modern experience that we see everyday in our society and in our media.

If this is what Confession was designed for, then any act of self can be confessed, absolution granted, penance performed and off we go into another selfless act.

Yes, there are graces present in the sacrament that will help the penitent to achieve all of God’s desire. And, believe it or not, many sexual sins can be overcome just by people getting sick and tired of confessing them! that is simple behavioral theory.

 What has God to say on repeat offenders, particularly as it relates to contraception?  Abortion, murder, anything can be confessed and forgiven, repeatedly if necessary.  Where is the deterrent?

Not only the loss of heaven, but the pains of hell. One of the requirements for a good confession is a desire to avoid the sin. I don’t think it is possible to overcome any sin without the supernatual power of the HS. But, why would one pray for their sexuality to be healed, when one does not know it has been corrupted?

Sexual sins are no worse or better than any other sins. I note that Jesus spent the very least amount of time on those, and talked more about dishonesty, greed, etc.

 

[qui_est_ce]

guanophore:
If this is what Confession was designed for, then any act of self can be confessed, absolution granted, penance performed and off we go into another selfless act. What has God to say on repeat offenders, particularly as it relates to contraception? Abortion, murder, anything can be confessed and forgiven, repeatedly if necessary. Where is the deterrent?

Thanks.

marietta

One does not go to Confession with the intent to perform the same sin again after receiving the Graces of Healing. True repentance is being “Heartily sorry for having offended God…and the intention of firmly resovling to sin no more and to avoid the near occasion of sin.”

Yes, there are graces present in the sacrament that will help the penitent to achieve all of God’s desire. And, believe it or not, many sexual sins can be overcome just by people getting sick and tired of confessing them! that is simple behavioral theory.

That worked for me (on another sinful habit)

Sexual sins are no worse or better than any other sins. I note that Jesus spent the very least amount of time on those, and talked more about dishonesty, greed, etc.

Luke 5:31

31And Jesus answered and said to them, "It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick.

 

[marietta]

qui est ce:
What if someone continues an offensive behavior without forethought; that is, not planning to, but because of circumstances?

marietta