If you are a non-Catholic Christian (Protestant), here you can find 42 reasons why the Roman Catholic Church was right.

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Gottle_of_Geer said:

Which is all very well -​

  • if (& the “if” is a very big one) - all or most of the above reasons are valid;
  • and, if (again, a very big “if” indeed) “being right” in matters accessible to reason is the most important, or else, an essential, thing about Christianity
  • and, if (again, a very big “if” indeed) the rightness of the Church is the most important, or else, an essential, thing about Christianity.
    All three of these need to be granted, before people accept the validity of the 42 reasons you want them to accept.
And not everyone, Christian or otherwise, finds the Catholic emphasis on & fondness for intellectual certainty necessary, or even attractive. Or even convincing - the Apostles did not preach intellectual certainty, but a Jesus Risen from the dead; they preached a Person, not a body of infallibly certain propositions. Claims to certainty can repel as well as attract.

Quite apart from the moral problems in Catholicism (not that it alone has them). What is the good in being right intellectually, if one (or the Church one belongs to) is a mess morally ?
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Well Brother Michael, as sad as it seems, the confusion is that you are judging the CHURCH OF JESUS for the actions of mere humans, Did not Jesus Teach us to forgive, look up at Rev. Chap. 12 all of it, Satan went After our Holy Mother (Which means the Church, Catholicsm Jesus, and all things of God) no where is it mention that Satan went after the goody to do other Christians, so it is well docmented that our Catholic faith is under attack for the actions of some of its members, who by the way are sinners, as in St Paul, WE all are sinners, I imitate Paul who like Paul am a miserable sinner, but guess what, I repentted and Heaven rejoices for my repenting. Amen, I love you all until it hurts no more: Love Mike YBIC
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

As an OP points out somewhere above (& very rightly too) the Church is God’s, not man’s. BTW, if you’re going to deny the CC is morally perfect, quite a few people will not agree - why, I’m not sure; but as the CC is very far from morally perfect, it’s crazy to pretend it is.​

**Your mother’s advice is very good - so why not take it, rather than trying to excuse Catholic vileness ? If we try to do that, we only betray our failure to see just how awful the evil is - wrong-doing is not excusable; otherwise it would not be wrong-doing; whether we’re reflecting on our own sins, or on a very public evil such as that. A Church that cannot see that such behaviour cannot be remedied by shuffling clergy around is morally blind, so it is not going to be able to see how blind it is :(. **​

**As for the stats - that is a morally irrelevant argument. Doctors & teachers don’t claim to be the agents of a divinely-founded, infallible, God-authorised Church - the CC does; & it claims much more that no one elsse does. So it cannot be tried by low standards, but only by the very high ones which it claims to embody & reflect. So a single such instance is an outrage - but there have been many of them. So it is not unreasonable to suppose that something in this uniquely gifted Church is extremely sick. If it does want to be tried by its claims - it should not make the claims. **

**To talk of percentages is an insult to all those whose lives have been ruined buy these evil men & the bishops who enabled them. :mad: **

Do people really imagine that saying, “I know we have child-molesting perverts in the clergy, but so have you”, is evidence of the Christian excelllence of the CC ? What kind of sick mind could imagine that has anything Christian about it ? That sort of “apologetic” is no different from saying, “If I’m going to blazes, at least I’ll make sure I take you with me”. It’s an attitude from hell - it’s not Christian 😦

That is sophistry. If the Church can take the credit for the holiness of the Saints, it can take the blame for the bishops who allowed the perverts to ruin lives. It’s typical of the CC to hunger for praise while rejecting any responsibility for the crimes of its members. That is the behaviour of a corporation, not a church. We have to take the blame for our wickedness, & face up to the nasty truth about ourslves - so why should the CC be spared ? The Church is extremely guilty, of an enormous evil, & one day it will forced to face the facts about itself - as will we all.​

I agree with you as long as that is not meant to excuse the Church, its bishops, or its other personnel. People have complained about society for centuries - but this evil is spectacular because it has been ferreted out (despite the CC).** When did evil in society excuse evil in the Church ? It doesn’t & can’t.**​

**If the boot were on the other foot, & only Protestantism were guilty of these crimes, on this scale, how much excuse would be offered by Catholics ? None, that’s how much. But when the CC is under the spotlight, heaven & earth are moved to put it in a good light. Catholics excuse anything as long as the CC, & only the CC, is being criticised. That’s not apologetic - it’s propaganda. **
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You really take the cake, the way you twist everything to your own evil advantage. Your not even worth wasting my time on, your so full of hate and anger. Just remember, you will be judged the way you judge others. You didn’t even half read what I said. You just made up your own mind what I ment, typical of a closed minded person that has a complex. A well known psychiatrist once said that those who run others down only do so to build themselves up because they have a low opinion of themselves. You are pathetic.
 
Memaw said:
You really take the cake, the way you twist everything to your own evil advantage. Your not even worth wasting my time on, your so full of hate and anger. Just remember, you will be judged the way you judge others. You didn’t even half read what I said. You just made up your own mind what I ment, typical of a closed minded person that has a complex. A well known psychiatrist once said that those who run others down only do so to build themselves up because they have a low opinion of themselves. You are pathetic.
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I hope you realize you are talking to a fellow catholic!!!:eek:

What about what he said is incorrect?

Here is a catholic who thinks the CC should take FULL responsability for what happens within their walls and you diss him for it!!:eek:

I dont get it:shrug: Why are you being so nasty to Gottle?

If this happened in my church(non-denom) I would feel the same way—regardless of how bad it looked or how much it hurt-- a church should take FULL responsability for its clergy.
 
ALLFORHIM said:
I hope you realize you are talking to a fellow catholic!!!:eek:

What about what he said is incorrect?

Here is a catholic who thinks the CC should take FULL responsability for what happens within their walls and you diss him for it!!:eek:

I dont get it:shrug: Why are you being so nasty to Gottle?

If this happened in my church(non-denom) I would feel the same way—regardless of how bad it looked or how much it hurt-- a church should take FULL responsability for its clergy.
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Me being nasty, I think you’ve got that wrong, why don’t you go back and read what I actually said. I only pointed out that those of other professions aren’t out there exposing their bad members either. So where are they if the % is higher among them than priests?? Someone is “covering up” for them. Why aren’t they taking “full responsibility” for them. At least the Catholic Church is doing something to clean it out and trying to prevent this from ever happening again. Like I said before the Catholic Church does NOT condone what these priest did and never would. Many of the Bishops were relying on the professionals in those days to treat them. Many of these things happened many years ago and were delt with without the knowledge we have today of such matters. I don’t excuse any of them, but that doesn’t change the teachings of the Catholic Church or its HOLINESS. IF those priests were true to their Vows they would never have done such horrible things. They knew better. They and they alone are responsible for what they did, not me, not my Church and we are paying the price for their deeds. But Jesus promised that the “Gates of Hell” would NOT prevail against HIS Church. I believe HIM, I TRUST HIM and I TRUST HIS TRUE CHURCH. So anything you say or do will never change that, whether your Catholic or not!! The Catholic Church has come thru many trials in its 2,000 year history and the devil has thrown everything imaginable at it, from within as well as from without, but the Church has remained strong and TRUE to its Lord and Savior, NO MATTER what. IF these folks are really “CATHOLIC” who claim to be, then have a little Faith in the Promises of OUR LORD.
 
mozart-250 said:
The one true church with the fullness of truth in action. Got it.
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Actually he is worse than pathetic,I was being polite. He should have been in the news media, they would love to have some with a mind like his.
 
I found this threat , kinda of interesting…not everyone consider RCC is wrong !!! At least, in Asia region not many protestant consider RCC teachings are wrong !!! But America, is such a strange and funny country to me…with so many complication…
 
The Roman Catholic Church *was *right, that is, until it ceased being Orthodox. 🙂
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

Because this is a Catholic site, Catholics should be particularly careful not to beat Protestants over the head, surely ? “This is my house, so I can kick you in the face as much as I want” is not exactly evidence of Kafflic Luv of non-Kaffs - or even good manners. To say someone’s apologetic is unconvincing is perfectly fair dealing - it did’nt convince me either, & I’m a Catholic. So criticism is entirely in order. Or do Protestants have a duty to be convinced by any old reasoning for the CC, no matter how see-through ? Surely not.​

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Michael, You are right, however you are also wrong, because THe Catholic Church did copied and Cannoized the Law Of God, Others Agreed to this is reason Bibles follow Catholic Cannon, it wasn’t until after the split that the Bible was changed, Christ first Church was not Catholic, He was a Jew, and that is the reason for the Tradition of the Church, When God Allowed Jesus Christ to make His Law Stronger and never to Change the Law. I understand that Protestant’s get offended easily but the damaged done by both US Catholic and Protestant’s is division in belieif is equally blamed, remember people are still being killed today for Jesus CHrist name. The Catholic CHurch was first is Christianity and traces its roots to Jesus CHrist, however I am Catholic for Truth in What Jesus Established versus Disobeying because mere human run it and mess up. Forgive the defensive nature of this, i intent to offend no one, that is not Christ like, ALso the infighting is not of God. Explaining one’s belief is okay, arguing over who is right or wrong is a matter of proof by God upon entering Jesus Christ Heaven is when we all will know who is right and who is wrong. maybe Jesus Christ is the only answer in our diverse beliefs, however He did set Doctrines to follow, as rigid as they are, we all have to answer to His Father for Disobedience to Jesus and GOd.
Thankl you all and may God have mercy on us all Love Mike YBIC
“Love until it hurts no more”
 
If you are a Catholic ,here you can find some reasons why the Protestant Church came into being.

Here’s a few quotes for you, …

:“The Inquisition was a very merciful tribunal; I repeat it, almost a compassionate tribunal… A man was only allowed to be racked once, which no one can deny was a most wonderful leniency in those times.”

Catholic Mirror, official organ of Cardinal Gibbons, Aug. 29, 1896.

“The state cannot afford to permit religious liberty. We hear a great deal about religious tolerance, but we are only tolerant in so far as we are not interested. A person may be tolerant toward a religion if he is not religious… Intolerance means fervor and zeal. The best the state can do is to establish a limited religious liberty; but beyond a certain degree of tolerance the state cannot afford to admit the doctrine.”
Monsignor Russell (Catholic), quoted in the Washington Post, May 5, 1910.

“We confess that the Roman Catholic Church is intolerant; that is to say, that it uses all the means in its power for the extirpation of error and sin; but this intolerance is the logical and necessary consequences of her infallibility. She alone has the right to be intolerant, because she alone has the truth. The church tolerates heretics where she is obliged to do so, but she hates them mortally, and employs all her force to secure their annihilation.”
Shepherd of the Valley (Catholic), St. Louis, Mo. 1876.

The [Roman Catholic] doctrine which, from the very first origin of religious dissensions, has been held by all bigots of all sects, when condensed into few words and stripped of rhetorical disguises, is simple this: ‘I am in the right, and you are in the wrong. When you are the stronger, you ought to tolerate me; for it is your duty to tolerate truth. But when I am the stronger, I shall persecute you; for it is my duty to persecute error’."
Essay on “Sir James Mackintosh” by Lord Macaulay

He is a heretic who does not believe what the Roman Hierarchy teaches.” — (quoting from the “Directory for the Inquisitors”).

“Heretics (those who are not members of the Catholic Church or who do not hold to Catholic doctrine) worship a God who is a liar, and a Christ who is a liar.” — St. Augustine, (quoted in “Patrologiae Cursus Completus: Series Graca”, by Fr. J. P. Migne, Paris: 1866, 42:207).

“The church may by divine right confiscate the property of heretics, imprison their person, and condemn them to flames. In our age, the right to inflict the severest penalties, even death, belongs to the church. There is no graver offense than heresy, therefore it must be rooted out.” — Public Eccliastical, Vol. 2, p.142.

“A heretic merits the pains of fire…By the Gospel, the canons, civil law, and custom, heretics must be burned.” — the “Directory for the Inquisitors”.

“When confronted with heresy, she (Catholic Church) does not content herself with persuasion, arguments of an intellectual and moral order appear to her insufficient, and she has recourse to force, to corporal punishment, to torture.” — The Rector of the Catholic Institute of Paris, H.M.A. Baudrillart, quoted in The Catholic Church, The Renassance, and Protestantism, p 182-183.

“Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honor Christ if we honor the Pope; we dishonor Christ if we dishonor the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: “They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!” But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him".

” — St. Catherine of Siena, SCS, p. 201-202, p. 222, (quoted in Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 5: “The Book of Obedience”, Chapter 1: “There is No Salvation Without Personal Submission to the Pope”).

Please don’t be angry or condemn me for these quotes above, as they were NOT written by me, but by Catholics.

AntePavelic
 
The split between Orthodox / Catholic didn’t occur until 1054.
 
Madaglan said:
AntePavelic,

St. Augustine was Orthodox.
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Of course he was, before the Great Schism! St. Augustine also said, " By sinful dissensions schismatics deviate from fraternal charity, although they believe what we believe."
 
Memaw said:
Actually he is worse than pathetic,I was being polite. He should have been in the news media, they would love to have some with a mind like his.
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You sound like a complete jerk memaw. Do you not see that? You should read the gospels. Gottle offered you some good arguements and you can only respond by calling him ‘pathetic’? You do not sound like a Christian at all.
This statement is what I am talking about. who do you think you are kidding?
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This is not an arguement for the truth. Madaglan could respond with the same statement when you claim the pope has universal jurisdiction, ‘who do you think you are kidding?’ If you are going to oppose a statement by someone you should offer some kind of arguementation.
 
East_and_West said:
I think we all know that this really comes down to one fact: Protestantism is a silly man-made religion infected with manicheanism. Everyone knows that the Catholic Church goes back to the Apostles. To deny this is just ridiculous.
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Dont you mean Christian church. Do we not follow Christ or our denomination?
 
Boy, you guys get heated up over disagreeing about doctrine we all seem to agree on. I didn’t see anyone dispute the validity of any of the bible verses shown.I’d like to add on: For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. St. Paul to the Romans 2:14-16 And what is Paul’s gospel? …how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: Rom 15:3,4 Now this tells me that when I go before the bema seat, God isn’t going to ask me which church I attended, but did I believe in Him who He sent?.
 
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