If you are a non-Catholic Christian (Protestant), here you can find 42 reasons why the Roman Catholic Church was right.

[deacon_d]

:yawn:

Whoa Jimmy did you say something???

How about let’s pick one at a time and debate it.

1. 2 Maccabees 12:44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.

It would make sense if we were Jewish and Jesus had not yet come. BUT as you so rightly quote later on:

1. Mathew 27: 51 And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. 31 The earth quaked, rocks were split 52 tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53 And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

WOW sounds like the prayers for the dead worked. Now that the dead are raised up. Who are we praying for?? Jesus accomplished HIS task. Opening the gates of Heaven. You picked 2 verses that cancel each other out.

NEXT!!!

Peace Brother

 

[po18guy]

I doubt that banging people over the head as hard as you do will return what you want. You can get more for your effort with a softer approach. Basically your approach is a massive turn off. But I betcha it makes you feel like you are doing a great job for your church. I don’t agree.

This is a Catholic site, first of all and after all. Jimmy B will not apologize for being Catholic, nor will I. It’s Christ’s church, not Jimmy’s or mine, or yours. He is boldly proclaiming the Gospel, and suffering for it. Something about that in scripture…

If you came here to learn, God Bless You. If you came here to criticize, belittle, demean or condemn, then we pray for you. This is an attempt to cause cognitive thought amongst our separated brethren. Not heat, but rather light.

Christ’s peace.

 

[deacon_d]

i’m sorry but it takes at least 43 reasons to even get my attention. you need to come up with at least one more. 50 is a nice round number and that would appeal to me even more. 75 would probably go a long way to convincing me. 100 would just upend my entire world.

 

[AgnosTheist]

He is boldly proclaiming the Gospel, and suffering for it.

Theres nothing bold with firing your guns from your own turf. If he wants boldness, try invading the enemy territory. like this:

thebereans.net/forum2/index.php

 

[Jimmy_B]

deacon_d, posted::yawn:

Whoa Jimmy did you say something???

How about let’s pick one at a time and debate it.

1. 2 Maccabees 12:44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.

It would make sense if we were Jewish and Jesus had not yet come. BUT as you so rightly quote later on:

1. Mathew 27: 51 And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. 31 The earth quaked, rocks were split 52 tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53 And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

WOW sounds like the prayers for the dead worked. Now that the dead are raised up. Who are we praying for?? Jesus accomplished HIS task. Opening the gates of Heaven. You picked 2 verses that cancel each other out.

NEXT!!!
Peace Brother

Hello deacon_d , how are you my friend?

“Whoa Jimmy did you say something???”

Oh, come on deacon_d, admit it, you know that these Catholic verses got your attention.

“How about let’s pick one at a time and debate it.”

“5. 2 Maccabees 12:44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.”

*Well, this one is self-evident; it obviously supports the Catholic position of “praying for the dead”. (A term used by some “Protestants” to describe Catholics) Are you trying to tell me that non-Catholic Christian ministers don’t “pray for the dead” at “Christian” funerals? If not, what is the purpose of having a funeral? *

*I have been to many Christian funerals and at every one I have ever attended, the minister prayed for the person they were about to bury, “the dead”. Maybe “praying for the dead”, for non-Catholic Christians, is only allowed at funerals, is that written somewhere in the secret “Protestant” playbook? Isn’t a funeral a 'a tradition of men"? *

*Catholic’s, on the other hand, can pray for the souls of the deceased whenever they want… *

“You picked 2 verses that cancel each other out.”

*Oh no you didn’t, Bible verses don’t “cancel each other out”, you do not actually believe this, do you? Do you believe that the Bible is in conflict or that there exists, one Bible verse that conflicts with another? *

*Let’s see, one verse argues with another verse and then “Protestants” argue with Catholics. *

*Catholics don’t believe that the Bible is in conflict, only that there are some verses which are selfevident, and others where context is needed for understanding. *

*The Bible is a “Catholic Book”, so every verse in the Bible is a “Catholic” verse, that’s why we left them all in there. *

*“Protestants” need ‘personnel interpretation” and “conflicting verses” (which there are none) to wrongly assert, that there exist conflict in the Bible, to try to make a particular verse “Protestant”. *

*Apparently, if that cannot be accomplished; change the translation, or take out huge chunks of the Bible all-to-gather, that way, future “Protestants” won’t discover that the Bible is actually a “Catholic Book”, which was put together by the Catholic Church and approved by Catholic Popes. *

*Another 'Protestant" tactic is to tell people that the, “traditions of “men” are not important”. *

Translation; Christian history “is not important”, because it is way too “Catholic”.

*Don’t make me post Martin Luther’s remarks, prior to, and during his trial and the Council of Worms. *

*I will give you a hint; *

*Luther “well what about this, this isn’t in the Bible…” *

*Response, “Oh yes it is, its right here…” *

*Luther, “ooops, better take that out of the Bible”…“Ok, well what about this?” *

And so on, of course I am paraphrasing here and these are not the actual qoutes of Martin Luther, so I encourage you to read Martin Luther’s letters to the Catholic Church and the Catholic response, it might surprise you.

*· *Verse number 5, on this thread - Catholic (check)

Please try again, Thank You… Next.

 

[po18guy]

I do not see where any of those verse support just catholicism. They do support Christianity as a whole but more specifically Protestantism.

Why do’nt you tell us how they all support cathilocism. by the way the Bible does not say it is a catholic book

It’s all in the translation. Luther’s (or whoever’s) translation appeals to you. The original appeals to us. You have free will to accept or reject even Christ Himself. Jimmy B is showing that the bible came from the church, the church didn’t come from the bible - that is backward
.
1 Timothy 3:14-15 (New International Version) Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Christ’s peace.

 

[Namesake]

Ok, I will, I’m Sorry. BTW, fishing is my favorite hobby…trout fishing that is, when I do that, I usually use orange “sparkly” power bait or night crawlers, sometimes superddupers and sometimes castmasters … Long CAF posts don’t work so well at the lake.

Thank you

Oh no! A BAIT guy! That’s terrible! Dry flies, or in situations of extreme need, wet flies.

But of course if they just won’t bite, force feed them with a large treble hook

 

[po18guy]

Theres nothing bold with firing your guns from your own turf. If he wants boldness, try invading the enemy territory. like this: www.thebereans.net/forum2/index.php

Some you can only pray for. They have reduced Christ’s church to a “movement”, all the while admitting it is the largest Christian group on earth. Their defensiveness gives them away. It’s tempting, but time is better spent in prayer.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Oh no! A BAIT guy! That’s terrible! Dry flies, or in situations of extreme need, wet flies.

But of course if they just won’t bite, force feed them with a large treble hook

A fisherman and a fisher of men.

http://www.state.gov/cms_images/moldova_fishing_2005_05_05.jpg

 

[Syele]

The Communion of the Saints, Intercessory Prayer and as “Protestants” put it “praying to and for dead people”.

How did ANY of that address any of my 8 points?

and last I checked newadvent.org was a Catholics publication, not experts on Protestants and what we believe.

 

[Deacon110]

=Jimmy B;3313504]Hello deacon_d , how are you my friend?

Not too bad. Have to call you for fishing when the time comes.

“Whoa Jimmy did you say something???”

Oh, come on deacon_d, admit it, you know that these Catholic verses got your attention.

Too many though. Would have been better to start a thread for each one. Couldn’t tell half the time what you were trying to prove or disprove.

“How about let’s pick one at a time and debate it.”

“5. 2 Maccabees 12:44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.”

*Well, this one is self-evident; it obviously supports the Catholic position of “praying for the dead”. (A term used by some “Protestants” to describe Catholics) Are you trying to tell me that non-Catholic Christian ministers don’t “pray for the dead” at “Christian” funerals? If not, what is the purpose of having a funeral? *

Yes I know what this is supposed to justify. This is real easy. Why funerals?? Who knows. Tradition maybe. Give them a send off so to speak.

Why do Christians pray at funerals for the dead? As you said. Man made tradition? Make the family feel good? Again, who knows. GOD handles the dead. By the time the funeral comes GOD has already done HIS work. I was just at a Roman Catholic funeral. The Priest said may GOD have mercy on your soul. Then said “he’s at home with the Lord now”. Was he thinking GOD listened that fast or just trying to make the family feel good?? It used to be that the Priest would reference the deceased as being in purgatory and in need of prayer to get to Heaven. Then so many Roman Catholics got offended at the implication that their GOD-fearing deceased were anywhere but Heaven that they changed this. A Priest told me “We don’t say that anymore, it upsets the family”. Kind of like meat on fridays. First no, then yes, then no, then who knows.

I always crack up when Catholics use Maccabees to justify this position. If I was a Jew before Christ, it would make sense to pray for the dead. Heaven was closed. Christ changed that as evidenced in the scripture you posted from Matthew. As far as the Bible conflicting with itself, I never said conflicts, I said cancel. GOD says an eye for an eye. Jesus says turn the other cheek. Is that conflict?? Hmmm. I’ll let you answer that. Basically Christ cancels out Maccabees now. So it’s not a conflict but merely the natural progression and introduction of the new convenant. Like an eye for an eye going to turn the other cheek. Jesus has ultimate authority in Heaven and on earth. He’s changed alot. Nothing too terribly difficult about that. If the souls are in Heaven what are we praying for??

If Catholic’s can pray for the souls of the deceased whenever they want great. Anyone can if they want. But do you think GOD is going to change HIS mind about something. If someone dies not believing then they are subject to GOD’s judgement. If they believe they get eternal life. So what exactly are you praying for??

This is one of those that always confused me in Catholic School. They would say, you can ask your dead father to pray for you. Then in the next sentence they would say, pray for your dead father. So which is it?? If he’s praying for me then he’s with GOD. If he’s with GOD then why am I praying for him. To ask GOD to be nice to him?

Not sure why you wasted so much space quoting Luther. I’m not Lutheran. Also you really need to stop proof texting the Bible. Quoting 40 some odd texts as a basis for Catholic scripture is pretty easy to do to prove some type of hypothesis.

Let me ask you this. If I string enough verses together to prove you need to eat an ice cream cone every night before going to bed to get to Heaven, would you believe me??

Keep trying. You still have 41 to go. I know, le’ts go fishing.

PEACE

 

[AgnosTheist]

Some you can only pray for. They have reduced Christ’s church to a “movement”, all the while admitting it is the largest Christian group on earth. Their defensiveness gives them away.

you misunderstood. its a movement within the church.

It’s tempting, but time is better spent in prayer.

there goes your boldness.

 

[Jimmy_B]

How did ANY of that address any of my 8 points?

and last I checked newadvent.org was a Catholics publication, not experts on Protestants and what we believe.

Hello Syele, I’ll get back to you eventually, I haven’t forgotten about you. I have some others here keeping me busy…sorry for the delay

 

[Memaw]

Which is all very well -​

• if (& the “if” is a very big one) - all or most of the above reasons are valid;
• and, if (again, a very big “if” indeed) “being right” in matters accessible to reason is the most important, or else, an essential, thing about Christianity
• and, if (again, a very big “if” indeed) the rightness of the Church is the most important, or else, an essential, thing about Christianity.
  All three of these need to be granted, before people accept the validity of the 42 reasons you want them to accept.

And not everyone, Christian or otherwise, finds the Catholic emphasis on & fondness for intellectual certainty necessary, or even attractive. Or even convincing - the Apostles did not preach intellectual certainty, but a Jesus Risen from the dead; they preached a Person, not a body of infallibly certain propositions. Claims to certainty can repel as well as attract.

Quite apart from the moral problems in Catholicism (not that it alone has them). What is the good in being right intellectually, if one (or the Church one belongs to) is a mess morally ?

Is your church perfect morally? The human race is made of sinners, some worse than others, and if what the statistics say is correct, the “Moral problems” are far worse among protestant denominations and even Dr.s and teachers, but dads are the highest. Catholic Priests are very low % wise in that respect. Not that I excuse any of them, but the media loves to bash Catholics more than anyone. And believe me the non-catholics pounce on that too. My mom always said we should sweep our own doorstep before we go pointing fingers at others. I don’t ever hear of anyone suing the Medical profession for the Drs. that have done the same, or teachers union for teachers that are quilty of the same. or protestant denominations for their way word ministers etc, etc. All that said, IT IS NOT the Church that committed those crimes, it is individual priests that are quilty. If you want to talk “Cover up” well I don’t hear any others admitting to any of this, where are those in the other professions out there letting us know who is quilty in their group. Who is protecting the kids in those groups. by exposing them.
Until we ALL clean up our act morally in our whole society, we will find these kinds of creeps crawling around in every place looking for a victim. As long as we have all the garbage that is shown on TV, movies, music etc.,etc., we are raising a young society that is willing to accept everything we have allowed to go on. Us "oldies"that still remember the “good ole days” of right and wrong are slowly dieing off. Every generation it gets worse. Where will it end?

 

[East_and_West]

I think we all know that this really comes down to one fact: Protestantism is a silly man-made religion infected with manicheanism. Everyone knows that the Catholic Church goes back to the Apostles. To deny this is just ridiculous.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I do not see where any of those verse support just catholicism. They do support Christianity as a whole but more specifically Protestantism.

Why do’nt you tell us how they all support cathilocism. by the way the Bible does not say it is a catholic book

**It’s not a Catholic, or a Protestant, or Orthodox or even Jewish set of books: it is God’s set of books. ****If it were Catholic - why do Catholics have trouble admitting the universality of sin ? **​

**It contains plenty to stick in the craw of every religion - which is one of the reasons I believe it is God’s; because God is no respecter of persons, & neither are the books of the Bible. If it were merely human, it would be as one-sided & biased as man is. **

**BTW, the fact that the Church witnessed to which books were the NT books, does not mean the Church made the Bible - any more than a lawyer makes the wills that he witnesses. Lawyers serve wills; they are not the lords & masters of them. The Catholic case is weakened by far too much loose thinking. **

**The Gospel preaching “is not bound” - it can’t be mastered by man, because it is God’s; it does not originate in man, but speaks against man & despite man, to judge man & to put him where he belongs, in the wrong, so that it may show that God is Righteous & that man is exceedingly & unanswerably & inexcusably unrighteous. But for man to try to control it is the same as “holding down the truth of God in unrighgteousness”, which makes it into the Gospel of Man, who cannot be declared righteous because he cannot be found unrighteous by a Gospel which is from him. It is very bad news indeed at first: only after it has humiliated man the sinner can it be the good news of salvation to sinners. **

**So for man - even “Christian” or “religious” man - to try to lord it over the Gospel, is to empty the Gospel of its power. So it cannot be for the Church to rule over. **

**See the St. Paul’s Letter to the Romans for the details. **

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

This is a Catholic site, first of all and after all. Jimmy B will not apologize for being Catholic, nor will I. It’s Christ’s church, not Jimmy’s or mine, or yours. He is boldly proclaiming the Gospel, and suffering for it. Something about that in scripture…

If you came here to learn, God Bless You. If you came here to criticize, belittle, demean or condemn, then we pray for you. This is an attempt to cause cognitive thought amongst our separated brethren. Not heat, but rather light.

Christ’s peace.

Because this is a Catholic site, Catholics should be particularly careful not to beat Protestants over the head, surely ? “This is my house, so I can kick you in the face as much as I want” is not exactly evidence of Kafflic Luv of non-Kaffs - or even good manners. To say someone’s apologetic is unconvincing is perfectly fair dealing - it did’nt convince me either, & I’m a Catholic. So criticism is entirely in order. Or do Protestants have a duty to be convinced by any old reasoning for the CC, no matter how see-through ? Surely not.​

 

[Memaw]

Because this is a Catholic site, Catholics should be particularly careful not to beat Protestants over the head, surely ? “This is my house, so I can kick you in the face as much as I want” is not exactly evidence of Kafflic Luv of non-Kaffs - or even good manners. To say someone’s apologetic is unconvincing is perfectly fair dealing - it did’nt convince me either, & I’m a Catholic. So criticism is entirely in order. Or do Protestants have a duty to be convinced by any old reasoning for the CC, no matter how see-through ? Surely not.​

Sorry to say that to many Catholics do not know or understand their Catholic Faith and they do more harm than good on forums like these.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Is your church perfect morally?

As an OP points out somewhere above (& very rightly too) the Church is God’s, not man’s. BTW, if you’re going to deny the CC is morally perfect, quite a few people will not agree - why, I’m not sure; but as the CC is very far from morally perfect, it’s crazy to pretend it is.​

The human race is made of sinners, some worse than others, and if what the statistics say is correct, the “Moral problems” are far worse among protestant denominations and even Dr.s and teachers, but dads are the highest. Catholic Priests are very low % wise in that respect. Not that I excuse any of them, but the media loves to bash Catholics more than anyone. And believe me the non-catholics pounce on that too. My mom always said we should sweep our own doorstep before we go pointing fingers at others.

**Your mother’s advice is very good - so why not take it, rather than trying to excuse Catholic vileness ? If we try to do that, we only betray our failure to see just how awful the evil is - wrong-doing is not excusable; otherwise it would not be wrong-doing; whether we’re reflecting on our own sins, or on a very public evil such as that. A Church that cannot see that such behaviour cannot be remedied by shuffling clergy around is morally blind, so it is not going to be able to see how blind it is . **​

**As for the stats - that is a morally irrelevant argument. Doctors & teachers don’t claim to be the agents of a divinely-founded, infallible, God-authorised Church - the CC does; & it claims much more that no one elsse does. So it cannot be tried by low standards, but only by the very high ones which it claims to embody & reflect. So a single such instance is an outrage - but there have been many of them. So it is not unreasonable to suppose that something in this uniquely gifted Church is extremely sick. If it does want to be tried by its claims - it should not make the claims. **

**To talk of percentages is an insult to all those whose lives have been ruined buy these evil men & the bishops who enabled them. **

**Do people really imagine that saying, “I know we have child-molesting perverts in the clergy, but so have you”, is evidence of the Christian excelllence of the CC ? What kind of sick mind could imagine that has anything Christian about it ? That sort of “apologetic” is no different from saying, “If I’m going to blazes, at least I’ll make sure I take you with me”. It’s an attitude from hell - it’s not Christian **

I don’t ever hear of anyone suing the Medical profession for the Drs. that have done the same, or teachers union for teachers that are quilty of the same. or protestant denominations for their way word ministers etc, etc. All that said, IT IS NOT the Church that committed those crimes, it is individual priests that are quilty.

That is sophistry. If the Church can take the credit for the holiness of the Saints, it can take the blame for the bishops who allowed the perverts to ruin lives. It’s typical of the CC to hunger for praise while rejecting any responsibility for the crimes of its members. That is the behaviour of a corporation, not a church. We have to take the blame for our wickedness, & face up to the nasty truth about ourslves - so why should the CC be spared ? The Church is extremely guilty, of an enormous evil, & one day it will forced to face the facts about itself - as will we all.​

If you want to talk “Cover up” well I don’t hear any others admitting to any of this, where are those in the other professions out there letting us know who is quilty in their group. Who is protecting the kids in those groups. by exposing them.
Until we ALL clean up our act morally in our whole society, we will find these kinds of creeps crawling around in every place looking for a victim. As long as we have all the garbage that is shown on TV, movies, music etc.,etc., we are raising a young society that is willing to accept everything we have allowed to go on. Us "oldies"that still remember the “good ole days” of right and wrong are slowly dieing off. Every generation it gets worse. Where will it end?

I agree with you as long as that is not meant to excuse the Church, its bishops, or its other personnel. People have complained about society for centuries - but this evil is spectacular because it has been ferreted out (despite the CC).** When did evil in society excuse evil in the Church ? It doesn’t & can’t.**​

**If the boot were on the other foot, & only Protestantism were guilty of these crimes, on this scale, how much excuse would be offered by Catholics ? None, that’s how much. But when the CC is under the spotlight, heaven & earth are moved to put it in a good light. Catholics excuse anything as long as the CC, & only the CC, is being criticised. That’s not apologetic - it’s propaganda. **

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Sorry to say that to many Catholics do not know or understand their Catholic Faith and they do more harm than good on forums like these.

**If you do know & understand it so well, why not instruct me so that I may see how treating non-Catholics decently is an offence against faith ? **​