If you attend the NO mass, what is causing the lack of faith?

[Milesius]

One example of justifed violence…



And how many examples of LOVE?

Context applied faithfully will lead to greater understanding: YES:shrug:

**Love **and prayers,
Pat

Christ was displaying love in that act in the Temple.

 

[jmcrae]

Because I’m not doing that right now?

There are people in every parish doing what you suggest, and we still find ourselves with this problem.

But, you are right in a sense. Your suggestions are about what any of us can do. And, it’s not helping.

Actually, it is helping. A year ago, we had a girl start coming to Mass wearing her best dress - the rest of the girls and boys were wearing jeans. Today, three quarters of the girls wear dresses to Church; the boys and the rest of the girls wear nice slacks - no one wears jeans to Mass at our parish any more.

All it took was one person to set a new example, and they all followed.

 

[CWBetts]

What about someone who has decades of education on the topic in comparison to your what six years at university?

The worst heretics have doctorates of theology, university education proves nothing, and gives no authority to teach God’s truth, not that I am accusing you of anything by the way just pointing out that fact.

My education in the Catholic Faith has not come from liberal universities but form highly orthodox individuals, including 2 religious priests. Consistent references to early Church documents and doctors of the Church have been part of it. My professors have been brilliant, Godly men (including a former Protestant pastor) Why do you denigrate education?

 

[Milesius]

My education in the Catholic Faith has not come from liberal universities but form highly orthodox individuals, including 2 religious priests. Consistent references to early Church documents and doctors of the Church have been part of it. My professors have been brilliant, Godly men (including a former Protestant pastor) Why do you denigrate education?

I do not denigrate education as a whole, there is good education and bad education, and both are rewarded equally with honours by the world, as an educated man you will understand this better than most yes?

A bad education has led to the ruin of many souls and a qualification is no guarantee of someone been right.

But let us turn back to the subject at hand.

I think we can agree we all have our part to play, but the priest has the bigger part yes?

 

[CWBetts]

I do not denigrate education as a whole, there is good education and bad education, and both are rewarded equally with honours as an educated man you will understand this better than most yes?

A bad education has led to the ruin of many souls.

Its not like I am attending Fordham!!! I am at Franciscan of Steubenville. I am surrounded by professors who attend daily mass and have a real walk with God.

 

[Milesius]

Its not like I am attending Fordham!!! I am at Franciscan of Steubenville. I am surrounded by professors who attend daily mass and have a real walk with God.

That’s good you are blessed brother

Let us turn back to the subject at hand.

I think we can agree we all have our part to play, but the priest has the bigger part yes?

 

[jmcrae]

That’s good you are blessed brother

Let us turn back to the subject at hand.

I think we can agree we all have our part to play, but the priest has the bigger part yes?

He can’t be the whole parish all by himself, though - and he can’t control the behaviour of other people. To try to control other people usually leads to disaster. They have to freely choose to do what is right - without waiting for “everyone else” to start doing it.

 

[po18guy]

He can’t be the whole parish all by himself, though - and he can’t control the behaviour of other people. To try to control other people usually leads to disaster. They have to freely choose to do what is right - without waiting for “everyone else” to start doing it.

Amen! The Priest has faculties of necessity, and abilities according to the Spirit. He can command neither repentance not conversion of heart, but merely teach it. Let’s stand at the ambo and look out at what the Priest has to work with. It’s no wonder there are so few vocations! The problem with the Church is not to be found anywhere else but within us - within that over which we have sole control: ourselves. Beyond a certain point, fault-finding is only a vain search for exculpation, no?

 

[CWBetts]

That’s good you are blessed brother

Let us turn back to the subject at hand.

I think we can agree we all have our part to play, but the priest has the bigger part yes?

“To him much is given, much is required”

 

[Milesius]

He can’t be the whole parish all by himself, though - and he can’t control the behaviour of other people. To try to control other people usually leads to disaster. They have to freely choose to do what is right - without waiting for “everyone else” to start doing it.

He can influence it though, more than anyone else in the parish,

A lot of laity don’t even know what is right and refuse to be taught by another member of the laity, they would however listen to the priest and it is the priests duty to teach them.

 

[Aramis]

The 70’s called, they want to participate in this thread.

No seriously, the 70’s and the alleged “sexual revolution”. The backlash from Humanae Vitae was pretty fierce and I think some people objected enough that they simply left the Church.

OF, EF, doesn’t matter. I think the decline would have happened anyway based on how society has “progressed”.

I tend to agree. Plus the 80’s acceptance of “new age” religions and open embrace of agnosticism. Especially in the English speaking countries.

 

[ac_claire]

He can’t be the whole parish all by himself, though - and he can’t control the behaviour of other people. To try to control other people usually leads to disaster. They have to freely choose to do what is right - without waiting for “everyone else” to start doing it.

True, but the priest does have a natural authority that is hard to overestimate, IMO.
It’s the same thing with children and parents. You see kids that are out of control for instance, who do you blame- the kids or their parents? I know it’s not quite that extreme with clergy/laity because the laity as a whole are not children…but there is a reason we call them “Father”. They have an authority that is sacramental in nature, so it goes deeper than we can perceive. They can accept it or abdicate it. Like as parents we have a natural authority over our kids that we can be in denial about or take responsibility for.

For instance, I am a grown, independent woman and I went to confession yesterday. It wasn’t awful but it was rather confusing in some respects. It was a valid confession. It was very informal and I dind’t receive any advice or penance, just absolution. And I felt kind of lost afterwards…

My husband said that I should do a personal penance then, and I was seriously just like lost as to what that could be. How do I decide on my own penance? Anyhow, that’s just an example that happened to me but it illustrated the authority the priest has, how much we look to them for guidance and example. More so than I’d even realized before.

 

[PJM]

=po18guy;6924263]Amen! The Priest has faculties of necessity, and abilities according to the Spirit. He can command neither repentance not conversion of heart, but merely teach it. Let’s stand at the ambo and look out at what the Priest has to work with. It’s no wonder there are so few vocations! The problem with the Church is not to be found anywhere else but within us - within that over which we have sole control: ourselves. Beyond a certain point, fault-finding is only a vain search for exculpation, no?

Who was it that said: “I have encounterd the enemey and it is us?”

Let us pray!

 

[jmcrae]

Who was it that said: “I have encounterd the enemey and it is us?”

Let us pray!

That was Pogo. (Walt Kelly.) “We have seen the enemy, and he is us!” It had something to do with the Communists - I was too young to understand it at the time.

 

[jmcrae]

He can influence it though, more than anyone else in the parish,

A lot of laity don’t even know what is right and refuse to be taught by another member of the laity, they would however listen to the priest and it is the priests duty to teach them.

Right - but then as soon as the priest starts demanding that they keep a half hour of silence before the start of Mass, get the gum out of their mouths, and dress like they’re coming to Church, etc., they all leave for a “better parish.” He has a very tricky job - it’s hard for him to know when to speak up, and when to just grin and bear it.

Also, people either don’t listen, or don’t understand that it applies to them, too. When we put out a dress code for Confirmation last year, the girls were fine (and so were the boys, of course), but some of the Moms turned up in sleeveless beach dresses. The Bishop didn’t know where to look. I have suggested that we have a supply of kimonos or shawls or something to put on them for next year.

 

[po18guy]

For instance, I am a grown, independent woman and I went to confession yesterday. It wasn’t awful but it was rather confusing in some respects. It was a valid confession. It was very informal and I dind’t receive any advice or penance, just absolution. And I felt kind of lost afterwards…

My husband said that I should do a personal penance then, and I was seriously just like lost as to what that could be. How do I decide on my own penance? Anyhow, that’s just an example that happened to me but it illustrated the authority the priest has, how much we look to them for guidance and example. More so than I’d even realized before.

The priest, who sits in persona Christi, gave no penance save for the implied “go, and sin no more”. I have heard that, to add to the penance is to make Christ’s forgiveness insufficient. Accept it as is and place your penitential effort into avoiding that sin.

 

[Milesius]

Right - but then as soon as the priest starts demanding that they keep a half hour of silence before the start of Mass, get the gum out of their mouths, and dress like they’re coming to Church, etc., they all leave for a “better parish.” He has a very tricky job - it’s hard for him to know when to speak up, and when to just grin and bear it.

Also, people either don’t listen, or don’t understand that it applies to them, too. When we put out a dress code for Confirmation last year, the girls were fine (and so were the boys, of course), but some of the Moms turned up in sleeveless beach dresses. The Bishop didn’t know where to look. I have suggested that we have a supply of kimonos or shawls or something to put on them for next year.

It should not matter how the people react as far as the priest is concerned, only that what he tells them is right, he must tell them whether they like it or not, sanctification is painful if they want to run away rather than accept it that is their problem the priest must do his job without paing any heed to human respect.

And he needs to persevere in telling them all his life till they get the message, they may never get the message but as long as it is not for his want of trying he will not be found guilty of their sins, he will be if he picks the easy path and turns a blind eye to them.

 

[Milesius]

The priest, who sits in persona Christi, gave no penance save for the implied “go, and sin no more”. I have heard that, to add to the penance is to make Christ’s forgiveness insufficient. Accept it as is and place your penitential effort into avoiding that sin.

There is no such thing as an implied penance secondly sinning no more would not qualify as a penance, it is not a work of satisfaction. The lady was right to perform an act of satisfaction of her own choosing due to the negligence of the priest in failing to guide her.

 

[jmcrae]

It should not matter how the people react as far as the priest is concerned, he must tell them whether they like it or not, sanctification is painful if they want to run away rather than accept it that is their problem the priest must do his job without bearing any heed to human respect.

And for how long can he remain a priest, if he drives away his parishioners? He’ll be bagging groceries at Walmart in a year, and telling people that he used to be a priest, if he can’t keep the people coming in.

 

[Milesius]

And for how long can he remain a priest, if he drives away his parishioners? He’ll be bagging groceries at Walmart in a year, and telling people that he used to be a priest, if he can’t keep the people coming in.

He is a priest forever regardless of parishioners.