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CDNowak
Guest
I wonder if the boom and bust of the Church in the 1960s aren’t directly related?
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Lancer
Guest
The statistics are intriguing…but, I think your are over-reaching…over-reading them!
To me is it very simple…God used Vatican II to take the “training wheels” off of Catholicism in the Western World/Cultures…He simply made us “declare …with the most sacred aspect of our free will”…what we really believed and who we really are as disciples of Our Lord Jesus…and what value (treasure) we really place on Him and our Catholic Church and Catholic Faith. Thus…with “no training wheels”…many wobbled around and finally ran off the road into a ditch…and when they got up from the ditch…instead of staying Catholic (faithfully practicing the faith)…they joined the Church of the Almighty "I"…following the “magisterium” of the Cultural Revolution…saying something akin to…"…excuse me Saint Peter…but, you are sitting in my Chair (“Ex Cathedra”)."…and even worse…"…excuse me Lord…but, you are sitting on my throne (my heart)"!
So…many faithful in the pews and many priests at the altars and many religious in the various ministries, especially the Sisters…simply did not believe in a very deep spiritual/personal/intellectual way…what the Church authoritatively taught on faith and morals (the Pope, the Bishops and/or the Magisterium) or…in her hierarchical structure. They just didn’t have…a “deep personal relationship” with Christ/His Church/Catholicism…somewhat like that personal relationship with Christ as many of our Protestant brethren like to say…our Catholic faith was more family-cultural and family-history…so when the “gates of mind and heart” were thrown open…i.e., given more (perceived personal) freedom (to choose…to be our own “magisterium”)…than we had in Pre-Vatican II Catholicism…many “bolted” and never looked back.
Lastly, just like the Lord was faithful with Moses and the Israelites wandering in the desert for forty years…I believe that He also has been very faithful with us…(1965-2005 was our 40 years in the post Vatican II desert (all the agenda contrived interpretations of what Vatican II really said)…and “our Moses”… was Pope John Paul II The Great). Now with JP-II’s death (40 years after Vatican-II…we now have our Joshua (Pope Benedict XVI) who is leading us into the “Promised Land”…(JP-II’s prophesy about the 21st Century)…the new Spring Time of Evangelization for the Church and its faithful…but before this Spring Time “resurrection” is fulfilled…the Church and each of us faithful…are going to have to make that sobering and painful journey to Calvary…and the Cross that awaits us there on that hill…just like our Master did. So, the Blood of Christ and His “Novus Ordo martyrs”…will in fact be the seed for this new Spring Time of Evangelization …"…the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church" .
Tertullian (ca. 160 – ca. 220 A.D.)
The numbers you cite are accurate but simply insignificant…Our Sovereign God is always in charge and no none can stop him from doing all that He wills!
To me is it very simple…God used Vatican II to take the “training wheels” off of Catholicism in the Western World/Cultures…He simply made us “declare …with the most sacred aspect of our free will”…what we really believed and who we really are as disciples of Our Lord Jesus…and what value (treasure) we really place on Him and our Catholic Church and Catholic Faith. Thus…with “no training wheels”…many wobbled around and finally ran off the road into a ditch…and when they got up from the ditch…instead of staying Catholic (faithfully practicing the faith)…they joined the Church of the Almighty "I"…following the “magisterium” of the Cultural Revolution…saying something akin to…"…excuse me Saint Peter…but, you are sitting in my Chair (“Ex Cathedra”)."…and even worse…"…excuse me Lord…but, you are sitting on my throne (my heart)"!
So…many faithful in the pews and many priests at the altars and many religious in the various ministries, especially the Sisters…simply did not believe in a very deep spiritual/personal/intellectual way…what the Church authoritatively taught on faith and morals (the Pope, the Bishops and/or the Magisterium) or…in her hierarchical structure. They just didn’t have…a “deep personal relationship” with Christ/His Church/Catholicism…somewhat like that personal relationship with Christ as many of our Protestant brethren like to say…our Catholic faith was more family-cultural and family-history…so when the “gates of mind and heart” were thrown open…i.e., given more (perceived personal) freedom (to choose…to be our own “magisterium”)…than we had in Pre-Vatican II Catholicism…many “bolted” and never looked back.
Lastly, just like the Lord was faithful with Moses and the Israelites wandering in the desert for forty years…I believe that He also has been very faithful with us…(1965-2005 was our 40 years in the post Vatican II desert (all the agenda contrived interpretations of what Vatican II really said)…and “our Moses”… was Pope John Paul II The Great). Now with JP-II’s death (40 years after Vatican-II…we now have our Joshua (Pope Benedict XVI) who is leading us into the “Promised Land”…(JP-II’s prophesy about the 21st Century)…the new Spring Time of Evangelization for the Church and its faithful…but before this Spring Time “resurrection” is fulfilled…the Church and each of us faithful…are going to have to make that sobering and painful journey to Calvary…and the Cross that awaits us there on that hill…just like our Master did. So, the Blood of Christ and His “Novus Ordo martyrs”…will in fact be the seed for this new Spring Time of Evangelization …"…the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church" .
Tertullian (ca. 160 – ca. 220 A.D.)
The numbers you cite are accurate but simply insignificant…Our Sovereign God is always in charge and no none can stop him from doing all that He wills!
Pax Christi
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DavidPalm
Guest
As I’ve said for a long time, the crisis in the Church is a crisis of fatherhood. Biological and spiritual.
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Melchior_1
Guest
Exactly, I agree 110%. You should check out CD’s thread in Spirituality about it, maybe we can get a good discussion going.
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Lormar
Guest
Perfect!
It was all in the head and not in the heart!
While it is true many bolted and never looked back, many bolted and did look back.
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Melchior_1
Guest
There’s so many good responses in this thread. Lancer, your last post was exceptional.
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PJM
Guest
My dear friend in Christ; given your final directive I FEAR your looking largely were the truth AiN’T! The “proof is in the eating”.
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Bob_Aliano
Guest
I’ve heard it speculated that long economic downturns lead to increased vocations, sounds cynical even to me but we will see shortly.
I lost the faith before VII however, when I tried to return some 25 years later I was struck by the, excuse the non-word but it’s what I felt at the time and coined the term to suit, protestantization of the Church. Took nearly 10 years since I first attempted a return but I finally made it back thanks in large part to a very elderly and wise Monsignor who guided through a confession and got me to communion. For the record, I attended a Catholic school and was an altar-boy so my catechism education was solid, it just never sank in I guess.
I lost the faith before VII however, when I tried to return some 25 years later I was struck by the, excuse the non-word but it’s what I felt at the time and coined the term to suit, protestantization of the Church. Took nearly 10 years since I first attempted a return but I finally made it back thanks in large part to a very elderly and wise Monsignor who guided through a confession and got me to communion. For the record, I attended a Catholic school and was an altar-boy so my catechism education was solid, it just never sank in I guess.
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PaulinVA
Guest
We are a hierarchical Church run by the ordained clergy.
There is only one group to blame.
There is only one group to blame.
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CDNowak
Guest
Priests come from the laity, are formed primarily by their parent’s attitudes.
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CWBetts
Guest
If anyone is in the mood for another Scriptural reference, look at the beginning of 1st Samuel. The sons of Eli were real scoundrels. They were guilty of both liturgical and sexual abuse (is this sounding familiar at all?) I think we are waiting for this new crop of priests coming through seminary right now (who I have great hope for) to be our Samuel.
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DavidPalm
Guest
Exactly! This is precisely why I think it is so important that we at least hesitate to call certain things “great” that, at least in the context of the history of the Church, perhaps are not so great. I’m thinking especially of ecclesiastical discipline. If I raised my own children the way certain “great” parents raised theirs, I’d have a house full of spoiled brats. Kind of like what we have in the Church, eh? I’m teaching my children a different understanding of discipline and if, God be pleased, my son were to become a priest/bishop/pope, I think he would have a very different approach to these matters. Hence, the crisis of the Church being a crisis of fatherhood, biological and spiritual.
J
jmcrae
Guest
That preface is very interesting, and should be read by all teachers, regardless of what subject they are teaching. He is right: rote learning without a context within which to put the learning always fails. But when the student can put what he is learning to use in a practical way (even if he is only translating Cicero into his copy book for his own use) then he will remember what he has learned, and incorporate it into his everyday life.
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VetA
Guest
its been said already, but i will say it again RELATIVISM
if i could make it blink and flash different colors i would
if i could make it blink and flash different colors i would
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Domnall
Guest
So, sorry to interject any conversation that is currently going on, but I thought I’d give my two cents on this issue.
As a teenager/young adult/ whatever you want to call me (I’m 18) I’ve really experienced this. I think the reason that the faith is failing is a combination of 2 things. 1) That CCD teachers aren’t prepared enough to teach the faith to youngsters. I know more about the Church and the Bible at my age than any of the teachers, grade coordinators or heads of the religious ed department do.
As a teenager/young adult/ whatever you want to call me (I’m 18) I’ve really experienced this. I think the reason that the faith is failing is a combination of 2 things. 1) That CCD teachers aren’t prepared enough to teach the faith to youngsters. I know more about the Church and the Bible at my age than any of the teachers, grade coordinators or heads of the religious ed department do.
- Parents aren’t making their Catholic faith central to their home lives. I think this has to do with the misunderstanding of Vatican II and the Social revolution of the 60’s. That has warped peoples views of morality and therefore warped what they are passing on to their children. Its quite a sad scenario that we live in.
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archangel04
Guest
You took the words out of my mind! It’s exactly what I thought and I couldn’t agree more with you on youre entire statment.
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archangel04
Guest
My 2 cents on this:
Being that I am only 25 I didn’t experience anything from the 80’s and below, but I do remember the 90’s and on. CCD classes most of them were a joke! They “thought” you how to pray and maybe read scripture, but they never helped you to understand the meaning of it. The people who thought CCD at my parish where not well prepared, if anything (I still see it now) are only volunteers who they themselves suffer from poor faith. I remember hearing in CCD “well I believe that women should be allowed to be priest”, “you can only receive communion on the hand”, “no one really goes to hell because God loves you no matter what”, and my favorite was from confirmation “I don’t need to confess my sins to a man, I go directly to God”. These are some of the “opinions” some of these “teachers” would share with their students. So add this with relativism and you get recipe for destruction of the Faith.
Now another problem I’ve seen is with family. Many parents get upset at the idea of their children ever entering a vocation in religious life. They dread the idea and become upset if a catechizes teacher even plants the idea into their heads. These parents are the same people who expect the Church to teach their kids everything about the Church in a short time, but they themselves refuse to uphold those teachings in their own households, thus causing confusion and contradictions in the minds of the children.
Now, when we turn to the world, over the past 40 if not more years, we have seen Christian countries like Spain, France, and Portugal fall to the secularist ideology. Just recently Kenya has approved abortion in their country. African countries are quickly growing in Christian Faith, but the West will not allow for that, and have already influenced them with their “religion”. Now Mexico, one of the countries with great devotion to our Lady, is greatly considering to legalize “gay-marriage”.
So, with all these thing occurring, does anyone really think that God is going to keep allowing these blasphemous laws and beliefs to keep infecting this world? I can’t speak for the Lord, but the Bible especially the Old testament has shown us what has happen to those who make themselves “god”.
Being that I am only 25 I didn’t experience anything from the 80’s and below, but I do remember the 90’s and on. CCD classes most of them were a joke! They “thought” you how to pray and maybe read scripture, but they never helped you to understand the meaning of it. The people who thought CCD at my parish where not well prepared, if anything (I still see it now) are only volunteers who they themselves suffer from poor faith. I remember hearing in CCD “well I believe that women should be allowed to be priest”, “you can only receive communion on the hand”, “no one really goes to hell because God loves you no matter what”, and my favorite was from confirmation “I don’t need to confess my sins to a man, I go directly to God”. These are some of the “opinions” some of these “teachers” would share with their students. So add this with relativism and you get recipe for destruction of the Faith.
Now another problem I’ve seen is with family. Many parents get upset at the idea of their children ever entering a vocation in religious life. They dread the idea and become upset if a catechizes teacher even plants the idea into their heads. These parents are the same people who expect the Church to teach their kids everything about the Church in a short time, but they themselves refuse to uphold those teachings in their own households, thus causing confusion and contradictions in the minds of the children.
Now, when we turn to the world, over the past 40 if not more years, we have seen Christian countries like Spain, France, and Portugal fall to the secularist ideology. Just recently Kenya has approved abortion in their country. African countries are quickly growing in Christian Faith, but the West will not allow for that, and have already influenced them with their “religion”. Now Mexico, one of the countries with great devotion to our Lady, is greatly considering to legalize “gay-marriage”.
So, with all these thing occurring, does anyone really think that God is going to keep allowing these blasphemous laws and beliefs to keep infecting this world? I can’t speak for the Lord, but the Bible especially the Old testament has shown us what has happen to those who make themselves “god”.
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Annabelle_Marie
Guest
Lack of faith or lack of heart. I can only tell you what caused me to leave and many of my relatives. I know a lot of people who say they went to Catholic schools and had some very stern and not nice nuns. What is attractive about that? Even Fr. Corapi says you have to preach the truth “in love”
Sometimes people get so into their own world and what they want and know…which is fine but they forget some of the big commandments like “love thy neighbor”…Unfortunately my grandmother was very much like that….which is part of the reason I left the Church 20+ years ago. She was worried about all that stuff…didn’t like the holding of the hands…and yet here was her granddaughter who was receiving communion and had never been to confession, had never been confirmed, who didn’t have the slightest idea why we did the things that we did. Seems to me to be missing the whole picture and point. I always wondered where the “loving thy neighbor” part comes in? So, first chance I got…I hightailed it away…got baptized in a Protestant church where I could find a loving God and people…not just the God with the thunder and lightening bolts.
I came back because of a loving priest…
Why are there less priest? Let’s see…you have people on one side critizing every mood and wanting things to be more traditional…and you have people on the other side mad because they get called out for leaving after communion. Seems like you can’t win:shrug: Also doesn’t look all that attractive…if you wanted to serve God you could go to religious life and not work in a parish.
Sometimes people get so into their own world and what they want and know…which is fine but they forget some of the big commandments like “love thy neighbor”…Unfortunately my grandmother was very much like that….which is part of the reason I left the Church 20+ years ago. She was worried about all that stuff…didn’t like the holding of the hands…and yet here was her granddaughter who was receiving communion and had never been to confession, had never been confirmed, who didn’t have the slightest idea why we did the things that we did. Seems to me to be missing the whole picture and point. I always wondered where the “loving thy neighbor” part comes in? So, first chance I got…I hightailed it away…got baptized in a Protestant church where I could find a loving God and people…not just the God with the thunder and lightening bolts.
I came back because of a loving priest…
Why are there less priest? Let’s see…you have people on one side critizing every mood and wanting things to be more traditional…and you have people on the other side mad because they get called out for leaving after communion. Seems like you can’t win:shrug: Also doesn’t look all that attractive…if you wanted to serve God you could go to religious life and not work in a parish.
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PaulinVA
Guest
Yes, but Priests decide who goes to seminary, Priests and Bishops decide how seminaries are run. They decide what is taught.
Bishops ordain priests. Bishops and Cardinals approve the liturgy. Pastors run parishes - they are ultimately responsible for the people in their geographical area.
There are many good Priests. But, in my diocese alone in the last 20 or so years there have been sex scandals, multiple instances of embezzlement, poor planning, and lowering attendance.
The Pastor is responsible for the people in his geographic area. If they no longer believe, it’s his fault. If the Religious Education program isn’t working because the volunteers are submarining him, it’s his fault. If people are not reverent in Mass or dress in flip flops and shorts, it’s his problem.
The lay people can not solve these problems. We need to pray for our Priests and Bishops, that they will address these problems.
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