If you can be a good person without God then why need Him?

PelagiathePenit · Oct 5, 2014

There are many good people who are atheists and agnostics. Some of them are better than Catholics and Christians I have known personally. I just always wonder if you can control your own selfish or evil impulses and you truly love your neighbor as yourself, why would you need God or religion? When I think people who need God, I think those with issues like alcoholism, promiscuity, poor self-esteem, poor, etc. If you are kind, well-put together person, why would you need to believe in God? What difference would it make in your life anyways? Some people can find peace within themselves, they are very independent and self-reliant and kind. Why need God? If we have full control over our decisions, why do we often to choose to sin? Why can’t people simply stop sinning, why do we need Jesus’s redemption or forgiveness at all if it is our own choice? Or are humans so helpless they honestly cannot stop sinning?

z_0101 · Oct 5, 2014

There are several good books by Scott Hahn, J. Akins, etc… that will cover this in more detail than I can; however, I would direct you to the teachings of the Catholic Church:

CCC37-38 (Vatican - Click here)

37 In the historical conditions in which he finds himself, however, man experiences many difficulties in coming to know God by the light of reason alone:

Code:

[INDENT]*Though human reason is, strictly speaking, truly capable by its own natural power and light of attaining to a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God, who watches over and controls the world by his providence, and of the natural law written in our hearts by the Creator; yet there are many obstacles which prevent reason from the effective and fruitful use of this inborn faculty. For the truths that concern the relations between God and man wholly transcend the visible order of things, and, if they are translated into human action and influence it, they call for self-surrender and abnegation. The human mind, in its turn, is hampered in the attaining of such truths, not only by the impact of the senses and the imagination, but also by disordered appetites which are the consequences of original sin. So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not like to be true is false or at least doubtful.13*

38 This is why man stands in need of being enlightened by God’s revelation, not only about those things that exceed his understanding, but also “about those religious and moral truths which of themselves are not beyond the grasp of human reason, so that even in the present condition of the human race, they can be known by all men with ease, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error”. 14 [/INDENT]

and again here:
[ (Vatican - Click here)
ENCYCLICAL LETTER DEUS CARITAS EST OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF BENEDICT XVI TO THE BISHOPS PRIESTS AND DEACONS MEN AND WOMEN RELIGIOUS AND ALL THE LAY FAITHFUL ON CHRISTIAN LOVE](ENCYCLICAL LETTER DEUS CARITAS EST OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF BENEDICT XVI TO THE BISHOPS PRIESTS AND DEACONS MEN AND WOMEN RELIGIOUS AND ALL THE LAY FAITHFUL ON CHRISTIAN LOVE)

and there are so many more arguments/conversations on the topic:

Here’s just a short list of material on CAL: (click here) Catholic Answers: atheism

But I like the simple: Pascal’s Wager (click here)

**(…)**Pascal addresses his argument to the typical man of the world who regards making money and amusing himself, not as a means to the end, but the real purpose of existence. Even if he refuses to consider his ultimate destiny, Pascal maintains such a man cannot avoid wagering about it. In practice, he must stake everything on one of two propositions, either (A) that there is a purpose in life (God made us for life with him); or (B) that there is not. Man cannot refuse to wager for by doing so he implies that there is no purpose in life.

Under one guise or another, human selfishness is always urging man to stake everything on B. Pascal tries to show that it is far more reasonable - even from the viewpoint of self-interest - to stake all on A. If you bet everything on B and A is the truth, you lose an eternal good. But if you stake all on A and B is the truth, you lose only a few temporal pleasures.(…)

A few temporal pleasures… small price.

grannymh · Oct 5, 2014

Looking at the long view of our human life, we need God to be there, in joy eternal, after we die.

St_Francis · Oct 5, 2014

I am older now (mid-50s), but when I was young I babysat for a couple who came up the sidewalk holding hands. How romantic! I thought.

A week later, the husband was out the door and into his girlfriend’s apartment.

Yes, there are many people who seem wonderful on the outside, but what is going on inside? We will never know.

And our ideas of “good” in this society are really very lax! One can commit a lot of sins while still being considered “nice” because they get along well with people (so, btw, do con artists), give money to the poor (as do corporations for the tax breaks), etc, etc, etc.

Used to be that going to church every Sunday was included in the concept of being good, and longer ago that holiness was considered part of being good.

Don’t fall for man’s superficial ideas–follow God and His ideas!

meltzerboy · Oct 5, 2014

I believe the divine spark is within each of us. Christians may call this the Holy Spirit or grace. However, it may take belief in G-d and His moral values to ignite that divine spark and transform it into a flame. I agree with you that there are people who are atheists and lead a good, moral way of life. But are they even aware of their sins of commission as well as omission without practicing a religion founded on moral principles? Do they know when they miss the mark, or are they content with leading good, moral lives while feeling no need for change and improvement. I think belief in G-d provides us with the impetus to transform and perfect our lives more so than we would be inclined to do without such belief, not so much for fear of punishment or desire for reward but because we have a firm moral standard of behavior, a moral compass toward which we can always turn.

Estevao · Oct 5, 2014

You say that you know many atheists who are good people, but good compared to whom? Jesus? St Francis of Assisi? What people often do is say “Oh I’m not Hitler or anyone like that, so I’m alright”. But they just ignore the faults that they do have and think that they’re meaningless. It’s what we do in our culture, we just ignore sin, as if it doesn’t exist. The more irreligious we become, the more and more you find people who think that they are immaculately conceived.

"And Jesus answered and said to them, “It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.” - Luke 5:31-32
John Henry Newman:

newmanreader.org/Works/parochial/volume1/sermon15.html

Monte1945 · Oct 5, 2014

A very honest and sincere quest you are on… And such one which should warrant
the proper full detailed response/s.

However time and space is kind of binding here in this type of media…

It would certainly be most profitable for you in you could attend some Catechism class and have this issue presented too you in a better structured manner.

From my point of view and education… you are close to answering your own questions.
However you might could use a plainer foundation of your own faith and what the church
teaches in order to get your mind on a track for you to discover some reasonable answers for your personal questions.

Of course you have a one on one relationship with God through the leading,guiding and directions from God through his Messenger the Holy Spirit… Just as he promised…

“I shall send you back a comforter and he shall lead you into all truth”

“I will write my laws in your minds and hearts, and no man shall need teach his brother
or neighbor to know the lord… as all shall know me from the least to the greatest.
They shall be a people too me, and I shall be a God to them”…(Hebrews 8 and 10)

Yes all people regardless of which and what religious ceremonies they may have experienced have a living connection with God.

It is not so much question of how much of the law you know or how much you fail
certain laws. But more as to whether you are fulfilling the charity chores God has assigned for you. The same chores which require a certain amount of effort on your
behalf to achieve.

You may say… I am a good person, certainly better than that person over there…
Etc…

But are you the person God designed you to be? Are you loving your neighbor
with the amount of love God has given you the ability to be or become?

The first lesson you need to grasp is that everyone is NOT the same… Everyone does
NOT have the same gifts or abilities to be…

(I certainly hope you are reading your scriptures daily in order to know what I am saying
is from the scriptures themselves… and not from me.)

Now how does being a member of the Catholic Church come into play on this issue?

The church is very compound and to keep this as short as I can…I shall just focus
on her role in dealing with the issue you have brought up only. But know that she has many other roles for the world…

Your spirit can grow… Your love can increase… You are not being all you can be.

You may have the ability to develop your love within your own volition.

However the scriptures state that we can “grow in the Grace of God”…(Peter.)

The Grace of God contains “attributes” which is an element to actually increase the proper quality of your human nature from within…

You can pray and receive further infusions of God’s Grace…

However the church can create other Sacraments (channels of God’s Grace) which can
help you to become the Christian through your Sanctification which God designed for you
from the foundation of his creation…

In the Monastic life there is a particular prayer where we go to the Sacrament of our Lord
in the chapel where he lies in the form of the Eucharistic bread. And we sit or knell in his
presence without any mental thoughts… We only focus on not focusing on any subject…
We attempt to erase our minds of any perception and we just pray… “increase my faith”…

and with our mind of faith alone… we seek for the Grace of God to enter into our
spirits thus to grow in God’s Love… Not for God to love us, or for us to love Him.
But to develop our Love so that it becomes more like God’s love… thus we can
love our neighbor more properly.

Keep in mind that God is love… and God is not in parts… God is all that he consists of.
Thus to have the proper love is to have God…literally…

And keep in mind that Jesus stated that when you loved any of your neighbors
then you are loving him personally as he is within each and every person in this world…

I am going to stop now… as this is long enough… and as usual I have not even scratched
the surface in the many wonderful aspect of thoughts and God’s truths your question has brought to my mind…

I may or may not have lite up our dark path with my limited abilities to teach…However
I had to attempt to respond too you as it is so wonderful and edifying to me to see
a person here (you) who has a inquiring mind and is not ashamed to come and seek
some ideas for your quest… Keep in mind it is God who is leading you to become more
familiar with who and what you are… and if you were complete…He would not have put these questions in your mind…

May God Bless you and keep in the warm folds of his loving heart…

PAX

captainrick · Oct 5, 2014

God is the unknowable entity that created all of the universe. I’m not sure we “need” him, in the sense that humans understand “need,” but I’m sure glad he (she/it) created everything!

MPat · Oct 5, 2014

Many answers have been given by now, thus I’ll concentrate to something else. Your reasoning is also statistically wrong. You have two populations: “Catholics and Christians” and “atheists and agnostics”. Then you claim that there is some sample of one population that is “better” than some sample of another population. But that does not lead to any useful conclusion about populations themselves. Nothing you claim can even suggest that a good atheist would not be even “better”, if he was a Catholic.

If you want a fair comparison, compare samples that are, well, comparable. If you take a sample of best atheists you know, compare it with the sample of best Catholics you know. Even that is not going to be as good, as comparison of representative samples, but that would be an improvement.

lmelahn · Oct 5, 2014

In addition to the other excellent answers given here, I might add another.

I don’t think we can say that a nonbeliever is altogether “without God.” If he is a good man, then the goodness that he has comes from God, whether of not he is aware of that fact.

All human beings have a natural desire to be good. It is written on our hearts. It is true that we can work against that desire (the terrible things that man is capable of is evident to see, even, regrettably, on the part of many Christians), but the desire is there all the same. We can confirm this by the fact that we can recognize and identify “good men” and distinguish them from “evil men.”

Where does this desire for the good come from? Well, ultimately, from God. And any good that a man actually accomplishes also comes from God, even if that man is a nonbeliever. Whether he knows that or acknowledges it is a different matter.

I think a nonbeliever has two major disadvantages, however.

First of all, there is an entire realm of goodness that is inaccessible to him: the whole realm of supernatural love. For a baptized man in the state of grace (friendship with God), even the most seemingly insignificant actions (provided they are good, of course!) can be done out of love for God, and hence take on an infinite value.

Second, and in a way more importantly, a nonbeliever is unable to enjoy all the benefits of being a good man. Certainly, behaving morally has its natural benefits (virtue and honesty really do pay in the long run); however, morality is really only the preparation for something much deeper. Human beings are not called just to be “good,” but to be happy—and not happy only in a distant heaven, but happy here on earth. That happiness, however, can only be found in God, and for that we need to know Him.

I should also add that although it is certainly possible to be a morally good nonbeliever, it is much more difficult. Baptized Christians have access to help (grace) that the non-baptized do not have. (At least, there is no guarantee of it: God, of course, can act in whatever way He pleases, but the Sacraments are the ordinary channels of grace.) Agnostics and atheists will, naturally, have an even more difficult time seeking God’s help. Regrettably, of course, so many Christians squander the graces that God makes available to them.

Charlemagne_III · Oct 5, 2014

We need God because we are destined to be forever in heaven or hell.

It’s not smart to think we get heaven by dismissing God as a fantasy.

Everybody sins, including atheists.

Repentence is required for heaven.

Atheists will not repent because they do not acknowledge they have sinned against God.

Richard_White · Oct 5, 2014

We, as human beings, are sinful. That’s just the fact of the matter. It is only through the graces of God that we can turn away from sin and be always with God. And, yes, some people are good without believing in God. However. what they don’t realize is that that goodness comes from God being in their hearts. Just because they don’t believe doesn’t mean that God isn’t there. He is always there, no matter what.

Plus, obviously, true happiness and fulfillment came come from God alone, our loving Creator and Master: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one God.

I hope this helps. May God bless you and keep you in Truth!

robwar · Oct 5, 2014

I think you need to ask yourself what make someone “better” than another? Are they nicer, friendlier, moral, generous etc? I think as one of the other posters pointed out, maybe they seem “better” on the surface, but you do not know what is going on on the inside of that person or what they are like when the doors are closed. God designed us to have fellowship with Him. Also we need God because we are all sinners. I had a sunday school teacher in the Methodist Church i grew up with that was stuck on this type of question. He kinda openly was questioning his belief in God because he had as a friend an atheist that he preceived like you to be a “better” person and while teaching a Sunday school class for preteens. That is why I asked about what you are calling “better” because with this old Sunday school person, his better was based more on personality of the atheist which isn’t a fair way to judge the effects of belief or non-belief of anyone.

Holly3278 · Oct 5, 2014

The fact is that we cannot be good without God. In order to do any good need, we must first have God’s grace. This includes those who don’t believe in God for even they receive God’s grace to do good deeds.

Neofight · Oct 5, 2014

I’m not sure why others think they need God, or not, but my thoughts are that merely “being good” does not give you salvation…for instance, scripture says, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved,” and not ,“He who is just a nice guy will be saved.”!

Bob_Crowley · Oct 5, 2014

There might be some “good” atheists and agnostics. I’ve met plenty of people who don’t attend church, or have much in the way of a religious frame of mind, but who generally do what is required - they treat others civilly, do their job well, live in harmony with their neighbours, and so on.

However there are two problems - the first is that “good” is not good enough. To get into heaven we need to be perfect. Even the “good” atheists would admit, when they’re honest, they’re not perfect.

The other problem is the witness of human history. I’ve been around for about 60 years, and in that time I’ve witnessed, mainly through the media, wars involving milliions of deaths, genocide, rape, abortion by the million, stealing and theft, arson, civil disobedience, vandalism, mutilation, civil wars, bombings, terrorism, kidnapping, the sex trade, sex slavery, racism, sexism, Aparthied, tyre necklaces, the drug trade, drug deaths, organised crime, the Russian Mafia, the old fashioned Mafia, fraud, corruption, nuclear weaponry, drink driving, speeding at reckless speeds, pornography, fleeing drivers killing and maiming people, parents who murder their own children, unprovoked bashings and king hits including deaths and permanent injury, political cynicism and corruption, a handful of Catholic priests committing paedophilia and bishops covering up for them, cruelty to animals, beheading of charity workers, and all the rest.

Tomorrow’s newspapers and television news will give yet more examples. “Sufficient unto each day is the evil thereof”.

And this has been going on since the human race began.

So there may be some “good” atheists or agnostics, but there’s a real problem with human nature. It’s prone to evil. And some of those “good” atheists would probably condone the killing of unborn children as a “good”, whereas in fact it is evil.

Hence the human race needs a redeemer. We’re fallen, and that’s all there is to it. The record bears it out, in unmistakable detail.

Finally no one gets into heaven unless they’re perfect. Good just isn’t good enough.

mexolic · Oct 5, 2014

There are many good people, believers and non-believers alike. To simply say that just being a good person will do, maybe a secular society can accept that. What’s expected from us (Catholics) is to worship God. Holiness. To witness to others. Prayer. Your post states that your a Catholic. By that, do you believe the things about Jesus? Who He is and His passion, death and resurrection. Eternal life. His real presence in the Eucharist? Was all that done just so we can just be good people and leave it at that? We are guided by the Holy Spirit. And yes, miracles still do happen.

MarlenenM · Oct 5, 2014

First, it is not what we do that gets us into heaven it is what Christ done that gets us into heaven. No one can do greater than what Christ done and it is taking his glory from him if we think it is what we can do that will get us into heaven. As for being “perfect” to get into heaven that is nonsense. We are not perfect and if we were then we wouldn’t need God. This is my discovery from what the Bible teaches. If you want to believe otherwise that is purely your choice.

z_0101 · Oct 5, 2014

out of curiosity, who, in your opinion, do good practicing Catholics exclude from our love? Christ taught, Love thy Neighbor. He didn’t give us an exclusion there… love unless…
When we pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet… we don’t offer the body and blood, soul and divinity our our Lord in atonement for the whole world… except… no it’s for everyone, those we love, those we “hate,” it’s for the whole world.

There maybe Catholics, and other Christians that exclude, but that is that person(s) act, and should not be applied to all Christians that truly do try to follow in our Lord’s footsteps… and those are hard to tread in.

meltzerboy · Oct 5, 2014

I agree with you there, and besides, isn’t purgatory for the purpose of cleansing us of our imperfections before we enter heaven?

If you can be a good person without God then why need Him?

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