If you can be a good person without God then why need Him?

[MarlenenM]

I don’t agree with you at all. YOU took what I said out of context. I do mean ALL things are possible with God and don’t be so ridiculous as to compare that with a pregnant woman.

Yes, with God, all possible things are possible, but impossible things are not possible. So, things can be one thing only, like a woman can’t be a little bit pregnant: she is either pregnant or she is not pregnant. If Catholicism is correct, then any disagreement with Catholicism is incorrect. God cannot reconcile truth and untruth.

I’m sure God recognizes the existence of what we call other religions, but He also sees the errors. I know many Protestants who love Christ and God very much, but who do believe things which are wrong.

The way we perceive religion really has nothing to do with anything, what matters is how *God *perceives religion, no? Christ became Man and died on the cross for us; He told us that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Singular, not plural: one Truth.

I am sure that there are many who were not apparently attached to the Catholic Church on earth who are in Heaven, because they had a great love for God in the little they knew of Him. God judges us, we don’t.

She has written that she is discerning in the area of religion (see the upper right-hand corner of her posts) yet she continually sounds very atheistic. She does not sound like she is discerning or trying to learn, that’s why I said she **sounds like **a disciple of Dawkins.

Perhaps I was too brash in my admonition–I meant to describe the impression she gives rather than say that she was a disciple of Dawkins’.

 

[St_Francis]

I don’t agree with you at all. YOU took what I said out of context. I do mean ALL things are possible with God and don’t be so ridiculous as to compare that with a pregnant woman.

I’m sorry, I’m now confused and not really sure what I originally said that you are upset about. I thought it was where I said that only one religion could be correct, but maybe it’s something else, since I don’t think that statement would draw such ire.

 

[meltzerboy]

I don’t make the rules.

What is your interpretation of the defiance of Abraham toward G-d? Is Abraham, by means of his free will, accusing G-d, Who was ready to punish everyone, including the righteous as well as the wicked, in opposition to His own moral principles? Jewish scholars have much to say about this. For one thing, there seems to be an uneasy tension between G-d and mankind despite G-d’s overwhelming love for His creation. The G-d of the Hebrew Bible is a G-d of infinite patience and mercy but also a G-d of wrath who metes out harsh justice. From Abraham onward, Jews have not been bashful in confronting G-d when they believe He has “sinned” against His moral code. And G-d indeed desires that we challenge Him, much as we challenge our society when we believe it unjust. Therefore the confrontation serves as a didactic lesson to mankind not to conform, not to obey blindly, not to remain silent when there is an injustice in the world that must be addressed and made right.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Really? I think people derive a great deal of comfort from the idea that “bad people” will eventually be punished.

Our whole criminal justice system is built on the premise of finding criminals and punishing them. Most people take a great deal of comfort from the triumph of justice over evildoers.

 

[Duane1966]

Our whole criminal justice system is built on the premise of finding criminals and punishing them. Most people take a great deal of comfort from the triumph of justice over evildoers.

The funny thing is many evildoers think they are actually good people. So my question for the OP is who decides who is good? Does society decide what is good?

 

[JapaneseKappa]

The funny thing is many evildoers think they are actually good people. So my question for the OP is who decides who is good? Does society decide what is good?

Society does decide what is good in the sense that it has already made the decision and is punishing transgressors. We could argue about whether or not it is right for society to do so, but from a purely practical standpoint it’d be pretty weird to claim society hasn’t already decided for itself what is good.

 

[PRmerger]

There are many good people who are atheists and agnostics. Some of them are better than Catholics and Christians I have known personally. I just always wonder if you can control your own selfish or evil impulses and you truly love your neighbor as yourself, why would you need God or religion?

Because it’s true.

Truth is what matters, no?

 

[PRmerger]

If all goodness comes from God, why need religion? Why go to confession, fast, attend mass, avoid the near occasion of sin? If you can be a good person without God, why go to church? What relevance is any religion? Does it make you a weaker human being if you need God, Jesus or church to be a good human being?

Because it’s true.

If there is a God, and if He incarnated, then He gave us the Way. And if God gave us the Way, it must be true.

 

[Ben_Quincy]

WARNING:

Discuss the issue, not each other.

 

[Duane1966]

Society does decide what is good in the sense that it has already made the decision and is punishing transgressors. We could argue about whether or not it is right for society to do so, but from a purely practical standpoint it’d be pretty weird to claim society hasn’t already decided for itself what is good.

My point in regards to the OP is that try as we might to be objective, we fail and are subjective. I think so and so is a saint when in reality they are the devil. Societies and individuals throughout history have been poor judges of what and who is “good”. Our “good” today may be deemed bad by another tomorrow.

Another question for the OP. I have an atheist friend who IS promiscuous and IS an alcoholic. Is he a bad person? By your criteria he is. He does not believe he needs God because this “is all there is”.

Christians “need” God because this is just a temporary stop.

 

[abucs]

If all goodness comes from God, why need religion? Why go to confession, fast, attend mass, avoid the near occasion of sin? If you can be a good person without God, why go to church?

Because Catholicism brings you closer to that goodness.

What relevance is any religion?

I find the term ‘religion’ to be not well defined and containing cultures of thought and experience too diverse to treat them the same. If I am forced to generalise then I would say (usually) religion is the formed cultural awareness and knowledge of the divine. It is a starting platform for each generation to be immersed in to take advantage od the experience of those before them and then to contribute to for the benefit of those after you. So if I look at Catholicism I see modes of prayer, different devotions, social groups, charities, schools, hospitals, universities, collection of history, deep thought on lived experience etc etc.

Does it make you a weaker human being if you need God, Jesus or church to be a good human being?

Well Jesus is God and God is goodness and the Church should reflect and entice people to that goodness. Perhaps we are talking about ‘knowledge of God , church etc’. Not being aware that the goodness you reflect is God is a matter of knowledge rather than a matter of personal strength or weakness. Being aware will make you stronger but being ‘strong’ will not necessarily make you aware.

 

[abucs]

If you can be a good person without God, why go to church? Does it make you a weaker human being if you need God, Jesus or church to be a good human being?

I would say that it is a bit like asking the question - do you need to go to the gym to be strong? People can start off going to the gym at different levels of fitness. Some already strong some weak. But the longer you are there, the more strong you become if you are taking it seriously. Attending the gym and following the routines is a commitment to be stronger or to stay strong. A person who has a commitment to grow and maintain strength is probably going to be in a better position than if their strength is incidental to their commitment.

That’s why Jesus was incarnated and formed the gym. Oops I meant Church.

 

[PelagiathePenit]

I would say that it is a bit like asking the question - do you need to go to the gym to be strong? People can start off going to the gym at different levels of fitness. Some already strong some weak. But the longer you are there, the more strong you become if you are taking it seriously. Attending the gym and following the routines is a commitment to be stronger or to stay strong. A person who has a commitment to grow and maintain strength is probably going to be in a better position than if their strength is incidental to their commitment.

That’s why Jesus was incarnated and formed the gym. Oops I meant Church.

Makes sense

 

[Charlemagne_III]

No one can be good without God’s grace. That grace is rained down on all of us, even atheists; and so we are all naturally disposed to be good, and evil is really an aberration of our nature, rather than the essence of it. Those who think they can be good without God’s grace are delusional. They really do not want, and so refuse, the grace that is rained down on them, and sooner or later that will be proven in the various patterns of their lives. The most evident effects will be a certain malaise that dominates every moment (the atheist Sartre called it “dreadful freedom”), a flight from moral perfection, and a relentlessly smug justification of moral and intellectual superiority over those who would humble themselves before the Almighty.

 

[Wunderkinds]

There are many good people who are atheists and agnostics. Some of them are better than Catholics and Christians I have known personally. I just always wonder if you can control your own selfish or evil impulses and you truly love your neighbor as yourself, why would you need God or religion? When I think people who need God, I think those with issues like alcoholism, promiscuity, poor self-esteem, poor, etc. If you are kind, well-put together person, why would you need to believe in God? What difference would it make in your life anyways? Some people can find peace within themselves, they are very independent and self-reliant and kind. Why need God? If we have full control over our decisions, why do we often to choose to sin? Why can’t people simply stop sinning, why do we need Jesus’s redemption or forgiveness at all if it is our own choice? Or are humans so helpless they honestly cannot stop sinning?

Because good does not equal holy.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

What is your interpretation of the defiance of Abraham toward G-d? Is Abraham, by means of his free will, accusing G-d, Who was ready to punish everyone, including the righteous as well as the wicked, in opposition to His own moral principles? Jewish scholars have much to say about this. For one thing, there seems to be an uneasy tension between G-d and mankind despite G-d’s overwhelming love for His creation. The G-d of the Hebrew Bible is a G-d of infinite patience and mercy but also a G-d of wrath who metes out harsh justice. From Abraham onward, Jews have not been bashful in confronting G-d when they believe He has “sinned” against His moral code. And G-d indeed desires that we challenge Him, much as we challenge our society when we believe it unjust. Therefore the confrontation serves as a didactic lesson to mankind not to conform, not to obey blindly, not to remain silent when there is an injustice in the world that must be addressed and made right.

Indeed, I am somewhat fond of the “If there is a God, He will have to beg my forgiveness” sentiment, although I somewhat doubt it’s origin is as dramatic as is claimed.

I wonder how you interpret the story of Job if we are in fact supposed to stand up for ourselves in the face of God’s whims.

 

[PRmerger]

Indeed, I am somewhat fond of the “If there is a God, He will have to beg my forgiveness” sentiment, although I somewhat doubt it’s origin is as dramatic as is claimed.

Huh? I have never heard, ever, in all my years discussing religion, anyone ever profess the above sentiment.

From whence does this come?

 

[Bradski]

Huh? I have never heard, ever, in all my years discussing religion, anyone ever profess the above sentiment.

From whence does this come?

Part of the atheists creed. We don’t tell you everything…

 

[PRmerger]

Part of the atheists creed. We don’t tell you everything…

Ah. I *think *you’re being facetious.

But now I understand better the context of JK’s quote.

If there is an atheistic paradigm out there that demands that God ask for forgiveness from the atheist, it’s clear that the atheist hasn’t a clue about who God is.

 

[Bradski]

Ah. I *think *you’re being facetious.

But now I understand better the context of JK’s quote.

If there is an atheistic paradigm out there that demands that God ask for forgiveness from the atheist, it’s clear that the atheist hasn’t a clue about who God is.

Never forget that an atheist doesn’t believe in God (I can’t believe that I wrote that). So that to say that an athist hasn’t got a clue about who He is doesn’t make any sense.

I guess you could say that any given atheist hasn’t a clue about what God means to any given Christian.

JK’s meaning might be better understood in that an atheist might say that IF God exists, then He better be prepared for some very serious one on one discussions about Life, The Universe and Everything come the Day of Reckoning and He better have some very good explanations ready.