If you can be a good person without God then why need Him?

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Kurisu35712 said:
I don’t have time to wade through the multitude of pages already in this thread, but I wanted to post my response.

I would argue that one cannot be a good person without God, and that without God, any “goodness” is false. Following up on that, I would argue that good people (holy people if that’s more concise) are such because of God and through God, even if they aren’t necessarily aware of it themselves or outwardly professing it. So a given atheist may well be a “better” person than a given Catholic, however, for me that comes with the stipulation that a good person is good because that goodness comes from God. As such the atheist would necessarily have a better relationship with God than the Catholic in question.

In this hypothetical scenario, it would be logical to assume that the atheist does not disbelieve in God as He truly is (and based on their actions is probably quite devoted to Him) and instead is opposed to what they interpret as other people’s descriptions. As a result, they serve God in truth by their actions and treatment of others, and likely just have an incorrect understanding of theology?
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Saying that god is required for morality pre-supposes that he exists in the first place.
I know that faith is a big thing on this forum but in my eyes you are basically building your house on sand, to borrow from Matthew.
Oh sweet delicious irony.
 
Winterwolf00 said:
“I do not believe a god exists” is not a claim, it is a statement of fact.
“God does not exist” is a claim, a claim that was not made.

Reading comprehension is important.
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I say, “I do not believe Santa Claus exists”. That is a claim.

When someone asks me, “Why don’t you believe SC exists?”, I provide arguments for my claim.

You, too, need to provide arguments to support your claim that you do not believe a god exists.

Otherwise, you are merely making a statement of faith, unsupported by any logic or reason.
 
PRmerger said:
What argument did you find the most compelling (even if it failed to convince)?
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The specific ones I can’t remember but I remember that Thomas Paine’s Age of Reason had a big impact on my journey away from organized religion.
Love me some Thomas Paine.
 
Winterwolf00 said:
The majority of atheists today are former believers and tend to be VERY familiar with the arguments.
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My experience with atheists and agnostics is that none of them can offer a very good articulation of the arguments.

Maybe you will be the first!

What’s the best one you’ve considered? And where does it fail?
 
PRmerger said:
I say, “I do not believe Santa Claus exists”. **That is a claim. **

When someone asks me, “Why don’t you believe SC exists?”, I provide arguments for my claim.

You, too, need to provide arguments to support your claim that you do not believe a god exists.

Otherwise, you are merely making a statement of faith, unsupported by any logic or reason.
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I say, “I do not believe Santa Claus exists”. That is a claim.
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No it’s not. How can you prove what a person believes? That is absurd.
How can you try and tell someone what it is that THEY believe? That borders on arrogance.
I provide arguments for my claim.
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There is no evidence because anyone making the claim has provided none.
 
PRmerger said:
My experience with atheists and agnostics is that none of them can offer a very good articulation of the arguments.

Maybe you will be the first!

What’s the best one you’ve considered? And where does it fail?
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I shall repeat myself then.
There is no evidence for the existence of the Abrahamic god therefore I cannot logically believe in it.
Done.
 
PRmerger said:
QED.
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You realize you have proved nothing right?
Nor is it even what you were talking about.

You quoted part of the conversation about atheists having no arguments and then quoted another part where I said I couldn’t remember any arguments for DEISM.
 
Winterwolf00 said:
I really don’t know why you assume such a dichotomy.
I neither believe in a god or a multiverse.

Are both possible? Sure.
Are they real? There’s no evidence so I believe neither.
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What caused the Big Bang?

Is it possible that God caused the Big Bang? Your answer would be yes, because you believe it is possible that God exists. You don’t see the evidence, but not seeing the evidence is not evidence that God does not exist. Not seeing the evidence that God caused the Big Bang is not evidence that God did not cause the Big Bang.

So you do not see the evidence that God does not exist, yet you believe that God does not exist.

Interesting. 🤷
 
Winterwolf00 said:
I shall repeat myself then.
There is no evidence for the existence of the Abrahamic god therefore I cannot logically believe in it.
Done.
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What would you consider convincing evidence? A personal handshake with the Abrahamic God? 😉
 
Winterwolf00 said:
No it’s not. How can you prove what a person believes? That is absurd.
How can you try and tell someone what it is that THEY believe? That borders on arrogance.

There is no evidence because anyone making the claim has provided none.
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So when I say, “I don’t believe that the country of Madagascar exists”, you wouldn’t say, “Please offer me some reasons for this?”

You think that would be an absurd question to ask me?

Really?
 
Charlemagne_III said:
What caused the Big Bang?

Is it possible that God caused the Big Bang? Your answer would be yes, because you believe it is possible that God exists. You don’t see the evidence, but not seeing the evidence is not evidence that God does not exist. Not seeing the evidence that God caused the Big Bang is not evidence that God did not cause the Big Bang.

So you do not see the evidence that God does not exist, yet you believe that God does not exist.

Interesting. 🤷
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Yes that is how logic works.
If there is no evidence for something the logical position to take is skepticism.
Or do you believe whatever you hear without question?
 
PRmerger said:
So when I say, “I don’t believe that the country of Madagascar exists”, you wouldn’t say, “Please offer me some reasons for this?”

You think that would be an absurd question to ask me?

Really?
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Asking why someone doesn’t believe something is not the same as asking someone to PROVE that they believe or disbelieve something, which is what we were talking about before.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
What would you consider convincing evidence? A personal handshake with the Abrahamic God? 😉
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The fact that you find that amusing tells me that that physical evidence is apparently asking too much.
Why is that?
Furthermore an all-knowing god knows exactly what it would take to convince me without me having to think or say anything.
The fact that I’ve yet to see such evidence tells me that it either doesn’t care, doesn’t know, or doesn’t exist.
 
Winterwolf00 said:
Asking why someone doesn’t believe something is not the same as asking someone to PROVE that they believe or disbelieve something, which is what we were talking about before.
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If you are making a statement that God doesn’t exist, you need to offer some arguments as to how you can believe this.

You need to offer proof that God doesn’t exist.

Otherwise, you are simply being a person of faith.
 
PRmerger said:
😃

I have proved my statement was correct.

I did have high hopes that I would be wrong. Sadly, not today

.
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Winterwolf00 said:
You realize you have proved nothing right?
Nor is it even what you were talking about.

You quoted part of the conversation about atheists having no arguments and then quoted another part where I said I couldn’t remember any arguments for DEISM.
Mistake or dishonesty on your part?
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I’ll go with dishonesty.
 
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