If you can be a good person without God then why need Him?

[Winterwolf00]

If you are making a statement that God doesn’t exist, you need to offer some arguments as to how you can believe this.

You need to offer proof that God doesn’t exist.

Otherwise, you are simply being a person of faith.

I never said God doesn’t exist I said I don’t BELIEVE in god, you not knowing the difference is hardly my fault.

 

[Winterwolf00]

Clearly, you haven’t even examined the evidence, Winterwolf.

Present some.

 

[PRmerger]

I’ll go with dishonesty.

Did you know it is against the forum rules to question the sincerity of an individual?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10806826&postcount=1

Since you are new to the forum, I suggest you review the general forum rules before posting further.

It will help you.

 

[PRmerger]

Present some.

Here’s 20.

peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm

 

[Charlemagne_III]

The fact that I’ve yet to see such evidence tells me that it either doesn’t care, doesn’t know, or doesn’t exist.

The fact that you are in this forum tells me you are still searching for Him and therefore are not entirely convinced He doesn’t care, doesn’t know, or doesn’t exist.

 

[Ben_Quincy]

Please debate charitably.

Discuss the topic, not each other.

 

[Winterwolf00]

The fact that you are in this forum tells me you are still searching for Him and therefore are not entirely convinced He doesn’t care, doesn’t know, or doesn’t exist.

Wrong on all counts.
I’m here because I’m bored and I find this amusing.
Trying to make this personal is not an argument.

 

[Winterwolf00]

Here’s 20.

peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm

I’m seeing the First Cause argument and Argument from Design with variations, one argument that presupposes that miracles exist which hasn’t been proven, and more arguments based in pre-supposition.

I haven’t read all of them but after seeing an argument like THIS.

There is the music of Johann Sebastian Bach.
Therefore there must be a God.

I stopped taking the page seriously.

Not only have all of these been debunked already not one of them is what I asked for.
Evidence.

Give me one thing.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

“I am concealing Myself (Christ) from you so that you can discover by yourself what you are without Me.” St. Margaret of Cortona

 

[Bradski]

What branch of Christianity was it, that required you to be confirmed before receiving communion?

Church of England.

Are you making the claim, “God does not exist”, which makes you an atheist, or are you saying you’re not certain God exists, which would make you an agnostic? IOW: what is your answer to this question: does God exist?

There are only 3 answers: Yes, no or IDK.

I’m surprised you are asking the question. And I think that you’d agree that the answer "I don’t believe He does’ is not the same answer as ‘I don’t know’. So there are now more than three. And I’m going with the fourth. And after this post probably will skip any more questions from anyone who wants to decide what atheism ‘really’ means to an atheist.

You’ve made it quite clear that you don’t believe anything that is recorded in the Bible is believable.

I have never said that, nor have I given any indication of anything that would lead you to that conclusion.

If it’s not believable, it’s not true.

And in any case, that’s patently incorrect. Not believing a statement does not make the statement false.

If it’s not true, the Bible authors are all liars.

That is equally absurd. People who hold honestly held beliefs are not liars (hence my earlier question about Hindus).

We can’t both be telling the truth when we reach such opposite conclusions.

Again, this is totally wrong. You really need to brush up on some basic logic, Charles. If I say: ‘I don’t believe in God’, that is a true statement. It is true, not because God doesn’t exist, but because I really don’t believe He does. If you say: ‘I believe in God’ and are being honest, then it is also a true statement, independent of the fact of God’s existence.

The conclusions which prompt the statements are completely different, but, and this is a very important point albeit not difficult to understand, the statements are both true.

So you do not see the evidence that God does not exist, yet you believe that God does not exist.

I am absolutely certain that at some point in your forum life someone will have pointed out the logical impossibility of proving the non-existence of anything at all. That would, logically speaking, preclude the possibility of having any evidence for the non-existence of anything at all.

And I think that we have all agreed that any atheists who are posting on this thread have already agreed that the statement ‘God does not exist’ is not one with which they agree. So are we done on this…?

In this hypothetical scenario, it would be logical to assume that the atheist does not disbelieve in God as He truly is (and based on their actions is probably quite devoted to Him) and instead is opposed to what they interpret as other people’s descriptions. As a result, they serve God in truth by their actions and treatment of others, and likely just have an incorrect understanding of theology?

This is a good point and was raised earlier. Although how anyone reaches agreement on what god ‘really is’ is a matter for debate. And quite often passionate debate even among members of the same denomination of the same faith.

I say, “I do not believe Santa Claus exists”. That is a claim. When someone asks me, “Why don’t you believe SC exists?”, I provide arguments for my claim.

You, too, need to provide arguments to support your claim that you do not believe a god exists.

As long as we all realise that the arguments are supporting, as you rightly say, the claim ‘that (you) do not believe a god exists’. Not a claim that He doesn’t exist.

What would you consider convincing evidence? A personal handshake with the Abrahamic God?

I might say that even a handshake might not convince me because I might be under some delusion.

I know that one claim for the veracity of Christianity goes along the lines of: ‘It must be true - how can so many people be wrong?’ Well, I see so much disagreement between Christians, even amongst Catholics, that that argument doesn’t hold water for me. I prefer the one that says: All religions can’t all be right but quite possible could all be wrong.

That said, if there was only one verifiable holy book and one universal religion with common beliefs and no separate denominations I probably wouldn’t be an atheist. If you want to throw in some genuine, scientifically accepted, evidence based miracles (I think I’ll regret throwing that one in), then I definitely wouldn’t be an atheist.

But there isn’t and there aren’t so I am.

 

[PRmerger]

I haven’t read all of them but after seeing an argument like THIS.

There is the music of Johann Sebastian Bach.
Therefore there must be a God.

I stopped taking the page seriously.

Yes. I find that argument peculiar as well.

Not only have all of these been debunked already not one of them is what I asked for.
Evidence.

Give me one thing.

Ah. I see that you have not actually examined the evidence.

All of those arguments are indeed evidence.

That you have a closed your mind to the idea that evidence is only scientific is a shame.

It’s like saying, “Prove to me that you exist, but use poetry only!”

Why should poetry be the criterion that proves I exist?

It’s like a fundamentalist who says, “Prove to me that Jesus was resurrected but use only 3 John!”

Why would we have to do that?

 

[angelic06]

There are many good people who are atheists and agnostics. Some of them are better than Catholics and Christians I have known personally. I just always wonder if you can control your own selfish or evil impulses and you truly love your neighbor as yourself, why would you need God or religion? When I think people who need God, I think those with issues like alcoholism, promiscuity, poor self-esteem, poor, etc. If you are kind, well-put together person, why would you need to believe in God? What difference would it make in your life anyways? Some people can find peace within themselves, they are very independent and self-reliant and kind. Why need God? If we have full control over our decisions, why do we often to choose to sin? Why can’t people simply stop sinning, why do we need Jesus’s redemption or forgiveness at all if it is our own choice? Or are humans so helpless they honestly cannot stop sinning?

I believe in God because truth demands it, in the same fashion that I believe in the sun and the moon-truth points to its existence. Many people who are not alcoholic, debaucherous, and with low self-esteem also believe in God.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

And in any case, that’s patently incorrect. Not believing a statement does not make the statement false.

I am absolutely certain that at some point in your forum life someone will have pointed out the logical impossibility of proving the non-existence of anything at all. That would, logically speaking, preclude the possibility of having any evidence for the non-existence of anything at all.

If you do not believe that miracles happened in the bible, you must believe that the recordings of those miracles are lies. If you don’t believe Jesus arose from the dead, you must believe those who said he did are liars. How do you wiggle out of that?

And so, if you have no evidence for the non-existence of God, why are you convinced that God does not exist?

And what kind of evidence of God would you require? A personal handshake?

Or would you say that if that happened, you would have to be delusional?

So there is no evidence whatever possible. Right? Have you made up your mind to that?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

There are many good people who are atheists and agnostics. Some of them are better than Catholics and Christians I have known personally.

All of us have vices and virtues. The question remains: what are the greatest vices and virtues?

Contempt for God by reducing God to a Zero is the greatest vice of all. No matter what other virtues we may have (or think we have), they cannot save us if we decide God is a Zero.

We can only be saved by repenting our sins and asking God’s forgiveness. Atheism denies both, because atheism says there are no sins and no one to whom we can plead for mercy.

Atheism itself is the Zero philosophy because in the end we are all reduced to nothing.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m surprised you are asking the question. And I think that you’d agree that the answer "I don’t believe He does’ is not the same answer as ‘I don’t know’.

It’s the same as, “No”.

So then you have to offer some evidence for your position.

 

[PRmerger]

People who hold honestly held beliefs are not liars (hence my earlier question about Hindus).

So who lied about the Resurrection initially?

 

[Bradski]

If you do not believe that miracles happened in the bible, you must believe that the recordings of those miracles are lies. If you don’t believe Jesus arose from the dead, you must believe those who said he did are liars. How do you wiggle out of that?

And so, if you have no evidence for the non-existence of God, why are you convinced that God does not exist?

And what kind of evidence of God would you require? A personal handshake?

Or would you say that if that happened, you would have to be delusional?

So there is no evidence whatever possible. Right? Have you made up your mind to that?

I’ll be honest with you. There is absolutely no evidence at all that you ever read anything that I write. I literally had to scroll up the page to see if my last post had been deleted.

I’m done repeating myself…

 

[oldcelt]

In response to the op…you don’t.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I’m done repeating myself…

So am I.

 

[Winterwolf00]

So am I.

When dealing with someone so dishonest disengaging is the only real option.