If YOU could.change the Catholic Church

[anon65111186]

Why shouldn’t women be priests?

Because Jesus and the twelve apostles weren’t females.

the catholic church’s attitude to transgender people and gay marriage

The attitude is the attitude of Christ, He only created two genders, and the biology you have can’t be changed nomatter what you do.

Gat marriage is not marriage because marriage is only between a man and a woman. Changing
the words doesn’t change the very nature of marriage. Giving into ones same sex attractions is wrong and marriage solidifies that wrong.

Love is love, and right or wrong transgender people deserve to be happy and fulfilled.

Giving into one’s desires and homosexual sex is not love, there are many other acts which express love. The sexual organs don’t fit, they aren’t meant for it. Should be common sense.

(since it doesn’t say don’t masturbate in the bible it just says don’t commit adultery and don’t lust

It says that the one who spilled his seed was punished with death. Masterbation goes against the nature of the sexual act, which is not selfish but self giving.

Contraception rules iut the possibility of procreating life, which is one of the purposes of sex and marriage. Related to that is the reason why gay marriage isn’t marriage, it doesn’t procreate and is a perversion.

The mindset of sex without consequences is also wrong, and contraceptives cultivate that false belief.

 

[PJM]

The ordination of women. I agree with it. Why shouldn’t women be priests? It’s not appropriate in this day and age to have sexist attitudes, is it? I’d have this gender argument overturned in an instant LOL.

Women CANNOT be priest as Saint John Paul II Infallible proclaimed; Here is summary is WHY

1 Ordination [the Priesthood] is a Sacrament Instituted by Jesus Himself, and no earthly power has the authority to change it

2 Sacred Tradition [also unchangeable from the time of MOSES ] has consistently reserved the Priesthood to male gender

3 Because in Catholic Holy Communion Jesus Christ[male gender] is Really, Truly & Substantially MADE Present: This IS MY Body & This IS MY Blood; requiring Priest to be male gender

And the catholic church’s attitude to transgender people and gay marriage. Love is love, and right or wrong transgender people deserve to be happy and fulfilled.

Gay UNIONS CANNOT be termed “marriage” which implies the ability & potential to procreate. YES I know it is LEGISLATED. That neither makes it a “marriage” nor a MORAL TRUTH

Gen.38: 6-10 And Judah took a wife for Er his first-born, and her name was Tamar. But Er, Judah’s first-born, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. Then Judah [the Father of both sons] said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.” But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother.[And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD, and he slew him also” … MEANING GOD KILLED HIM BOTH PHYSICALLY AND SPIRITUALLY [condemned to ETERNAL Hell!]

And friend, your right; you’ll never be a TRUE Catholic holding these views

May GOD guide your path

 

[Luce7]

Yes, everything you’ve said is the official position of the catholic church. But the question was…what would you change? I don’t agree with the church.

You say it’s because the apostles weren’t female. I bet you Jesus called women to get up and follow him too but a mother’s love is probably the only thing that could stop a person wanting to follow his command. If he called women they couldn’t go, because their children needed them and in that time and age, it’s likely husbands wouldn’t allow it. That doesn’t mean women wouldn’t have made excellent apostles.

Jesus also taught love, and he never specified that it was wrong to change your sex, he just said marriage is for a man and a woman. What’s more, Jesus was a man too, as much as a God, or we would cheapen his sacrifice by saying otherwise. Why else did he cry blood the night before he was crucified? He was afraid, because he was human. Humans make mistakes.

But God didn’t create two genders did he? He created men who feel like men, women who feel like women, women who feel like men, men who feel like women, men who feel they’re animals inside, and people who feel they have no gender whatsoever. So he made binary bodies, but he didn’t make binary minds or hearts. Our challenge is to see past our own preconceptions and access pure love, forgiveness and acceptance of those individuals, down to letting them do what they wish with their bodies.

Gay marriage…well obviously the church opposes that, because of the children issue. Plenty of kids who need loving homes, and you may not think it counts as love but I reckon a lot of people would disagree with you as they bring up happy, healthy children who have two moms or two dads

Er…hate to be crude but the sex organs work fine for it LOL. They’ve been working fine since long before the bible! Plus that is cultural, it’s about making babies in a time when carrying on the name was vital. So obviously the bible writers put that in there to protect patriarchal lineage.

And I’m pretty sure he meant spilled his seed to avoid having a child, which is different to just spilling seed. That happens during wet dreams and that’s not sinful is it?

On the last point I utterly agree with you. Contraception has created a mindset where sex is free and women (and men) can be objectified as body parts for gratification. That said…you could take the pill to control PCOS, without the intention to prevent yourself having kids, because the pill can fail, and God works in mysterious ways…and you could take it without having that false belief about intimacy too.

Contraception can feed into that belief, but it can also be used where that belief isn’t in place. Obviously, not everyone who uses contraception treats sex as cheap and easy.

But I will grant that contraception is making it easier for the unscrupulous to be unscrupulous.

Anyway, that’s why I’d change these things. I get that every catholic in the world would disagree with me, but that ain’t my problem LOL. I see a different world I’m afraid.

 

[PJM]

THANKS for your candor, BUT my friend, if you’re on this FORUM to do anything besides BASH Catholicism; your missing your calling.

May God actually guide your path

Patrick

 

[jfz178]

Well, “The Church” is the the people of The Church, not any of the buildings or the organization. It is, "a visible society of baptized Christians professing the same Catholic faith under the authority of the invisible head (Christ) and the authority of the visible head (the pope and the bishops in communion with him). So The Church is the Catholic people.

I would have lots of things I would like to change about this group:

• That they learn to be more tolerant of each other, and of people outside The Faith.
• That some of us stop playing amatuer theologians and let the real theologians do their jobs. And after they do their jobs, we listen.
• Only the Pontiff should be pontificating! And he should keep his credibility high by sticking strongly to matters of faith and morals and respect the separation of church and state.
• That we remember we are The Church, not the buildings, the writings and the hierarchy. Those things all have their place, but WE ARE IT!
• Be more open to change if it is not strictly a matter of faith. And even that has changed over time.

 

[anon65111186]

But the question was…what would you change?

So I would change it so there would be Latin mass more often. I would also change the hideous modern architecture and bring back neoclassical churches with ornamentation in the US.

You say it’s because the apostles weren’t female.

Sure he did, he had many other roles in mind for women, as they have today. God established that woman can’t be priests, not man, and man can’t change what God has established. God is all-wise, all-knowing, perfect, so I trust His judgement.

Jesus … never specified that it was wrong to change your sex.

Either Jesus teaches and speaks through the Church today (Popes, Bishops, Priests) or he doesn’t. The Church teaches that it is wrong to change your sex, (which is really impossible genetically anyhow), so either the Church is teaching doctrines of men, and is wrong, or is teaching what Jesus teaches, and is right.

But God didn’t create two genders did he?

He did, male and female, genetically, physically. Nowhere in the Bible or the teaching of the Church will you find more than that. If emotions are the basis for identity, I could identify as a tree, and nobody could tell me different, especially if I feel like a tree. You see how ridiculous that is, I hope.

the church opposes that, because of the children issue.

Not just because of the children issue, because it involves homosexual acts, which is a perversion of the nature of sex, and a sin according to the Bible. Remember what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah went they went around committing homosexual acts? Didn’t turn out well for them.

the sex organs work fine for it LOL.

If you are referring to male homosexuals, they work fine to tear the anus and make it bleed, and female organs don’t match at all. That should be common sense.

So obviously the bible writers put that in there

God put it in there, because He is the author of the Bible.

he meant spilled his seed to avoid having a child

Turns out “wasting the seed” in any act is forbidden, including homosexual acts, oral intercourse, masturbation. Spilling seed / wasting seed was so disgusting to God that He killed Onan on the spot, as you seem to know.

Wet dreams do not involve the will, so are involuntary. Only acts that involve the will are culpable.

On the last point I utterly agree with you.

I’m glad

I don’t agree with the church.

Now, I’m a bit confused, you seem to know Jesus, know his teaching, know the Bible, know the Church’s teaching somewhat, and yet you disagree with it. I’m at a loss, why the disagreement? You said you see a different world, I see a lot of different worlds too, but that doesn’t seem to explain it.

 

[PJM]

Well, “The Church” is the the people of The Church, not any of the buildings or the organization. It is, "a visible society of baptized Christians professing the same Catholic faith under the authority of the invisible head (Christ) and the authority of the visible head (the pope and the bishops in communion with him). So The Church is the Catholic people.

THE CHURCH CERTAINLY IS “hER PEOPLE” and A great DEAL MORE

FROM our Catechism

1181 A church, “a house of prayer in which the Eucharist is celebrated and reserved, where the faithful assemble, and where is worshipped the presence of the Son of God our Savior, offered for us on the sacrificial altar for the help and consolation of the faithful - this house ought to be in good taste and a worthy place for prayer and sacred ceremonial.” In this “house of God” the truth and the harmony of the signs that make it up should show Christ to be present and active in this place

756 "Often, too, the Church is called the building of God. The Lord compared himself to the stone which the builders rejected, but which was made into the corner-stone. On this foundation the Church is built by the apostles and from it the Church receives solidity and unity. This edifice has many names to describe it: the house of God in which his family dwells; the household of God in the Spirit; the dwelling-place of God among men; and, especially, the holy temple. This temple, symbolized in places of worship built out of stone, is praised by the Fathers and, not without reason, is compared in the liturgy to the Holy City, the New Jerusalem. As living stones we here on earth are built into it. It is this holy city that is seen by John as it comes down out of heaven from God when the world is made anew, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband.

2691 The church, the house of God, is the proper place for the liturgical prayer of the parish community. It is also the privileged place for adoration of the real presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. The choice of a favorable place is not a matter of indifference for true prayer. …

God Bless you.

Patrick

 

[Luce7]

I disagree because it isn’t always a moral teaching. If I thought it was, I’d convert tomorrow.

It’s not moral to deny a woman access to contraceptives or abortion if she was raped, or in the case of emotional or psychological abuse which had led to unwanted pregnancy.

It’s not moral to deny someone who wants a sex change so badly that operation, if all other avenues, such as psychotherapy, have been exhausted. If the only thing that will assuage them is surgery, what am I supposed to do? Should I tell them it’s sinful? That isn’t going to make them feel right, is it? I won’t be the architect of their misery, or I’m doing something wrong too. That’s why I don’t agree with doctrine.

As for sex organs, well…if it’s so unnatural then why do so many people gravitate towards it and use it to express love? Personally I think as long as people live in love and do love in their lives, they’re following after Jesus in their own way, so I don’t know why the church kicks up such a fuss. Love is more important. We need loving people, not angry, unhappy, unfulfilled, confused and hurt people, which is what you get when you deny someone an appropriate outlet for their sexuality. I’m not saying I agree with gay (or straight) people sleeping with everyone…but I’m an advocate of gay marriage.

As for children…with all the homeless, abandoned and un-fostered kids around, I doubt we’re in need of any more lives right now. It’d be nice if we could breed and breed and there would always be resources, space and time…but sadly the reality is a surplus of unwanted kids. I’m not sure where the church stands on that but…at the end of it all humans have a human responsibility to protect them, and we can’t do that if people keep breeding indiscriminately.

You are right on one thing, it is genetically impossible (though probably not for long, knowing the way science races ahead) to change your sex. So in a way yes, you will always be a man, or a woman, you can’t change. And some people DO identify as a tree. It brings them comfort. Would you rip a security blanket away from a child? Most people ARE scared children even when they’re 70, LOL, personally I’d sooner not dabble or we will have a lot more angry, frightened, unhappy people about, and those sorts of people do harm to others.

That’s…a small fraction…of why I don’t agree. Beautiful as some of the church’s teachings are.

 

[anon65111186]

it isn’t always a moral teaching.

What moral authority says abortion, contraception, population control, homosexuality and transgender surgery is good and moral?

That is one I’d like to know.

 

[Luce7]

Mine does. I don’t believe ALL abortion is moral. But abortion below a certain threshold to save a woman’s life, abortion in cases where a woman has been raped, contraception in the sense that we have to first provide for the people who have been born. Transgender surgery in the sense of mercy to those suffering. Homosexuality in the sense that it’s morally right not to judge and interfere in people’s lives, and of course not all catholics do and I know that.

A few will tho.

 

[anon65111186]

Mine does

Who is the moral authority? You yourself?

I don’t believe ALL abortion is moral. But abortion below a certain threshold to save a woman’s life, abortion in cases where a woman has been rape

Well, the Church teaching is it is a human life from the moment it is conceived (sperm and zygote become one), and so anything after that is killing a human being. Science backs this up. Human life is valuable and sacred, even if unborn. You can’t kill innocent human beings. In the case of saving a woman’s life, you can’t kill another human being to save another human life.

Would you kill an innocent person to save another innocent person’s life? Even if they were both going to die?

The Church teaches there is no justification for killing an innocent person, ever. You can’t say it is just to kill an innocent to save another person’s life.

contraception in the sense that we have to first provide for the people who have been born

How does contraception provide for people? It prevents life from being conceived, this is not pro-life, in the literal sense of the word.

Transgender surgery in the sense of mercy to those suffering

Life is suffering, you can’t avoid it. People who avoid it don’t understand the value of suffering. Look at the cross and how Jesus suffered, he was offered pain killer (hyssop) and didn’t take it because he knew suffering is what makes us holy.

It would not be a mercy to enable someone with a disorder to indulge in their disorder. The natural order is to be and identify as what you are born with. If that is difficult, you pray and may suffer, but overcoming that challenge and temptation is what makes people stronger and holier.

Homosexuality in the sense that it’s morally right not to judge and interfere in people’s lives

So homosexual acts are wrong, but so is saying the fact that it is wrong?

It is a contradiction when

Judging is people wrong.
Somebody judges homosexual acts to be wrong.
You judge that somebody as being wrong for judging something wrong.

It is contradictory and circular. Judging judgmental people is judgmental.

 

[PJM]

Mine does. I don’t believe ALL abortion is moral. But abortion below a certain threshold to save a woman’s life, abortion in cases where a woman has been raped, contraception in the sense that we have to first provide for the people who have been born. Transgender surgery in the sense of mercy to those suffering. Homosexuality in the sense that it’s morally right not to judge and interfere in people’s lives, and of course not all catholics do and I know that.

A few will tho.

ALL of the above attempt to USURP God’s very Sovereignty.

It is NEVER “right” to ignore sin and evil; never!

The very foundation of Moral Theology is that one many NEVER do a “wrong” in order to cause a “right”

Blessings

 

[Luce7]

That would be why I put these comments the Non catholic religions section LOL. That’s what you believe and that’s fine. I’m obviously not trying to change it. It’s not ignoring sin. It’s respecting other people’s choices, sovereignty and free will.

When we make a choice about a big issue like…say abortion…we take a stance that is either for or against a person. Not just for or against a concept. Those choices can shape the rest of our lives and afterlives. I don’t know about you LOL but I’m NOT willing to take a stance AGAINST women’s right to control their own bodies. Not because I think this is inherently RIGHT behavior. But because I’m not willing to make a blanket statement that could do harm, regardless of what God wants or doesn’t want from me.

He gave me free will and I think he expects me to use it. If he sees me doing this wrong, using morality wrongly, I’m sure he will correct me.

It’s not an attempt to usurp anyone. I respect God’s wishes. I’m simply saying, I will always side with love, even if it means siding against God.

I don’t believe that God wants me to follow blindly. I think he gave me free will so I could choose (my understanding of) moral integrity. Simply agreeing with God regardless of what he tells you to do strikes me more as cowardice. It’s meant to be trust, and faith, I know. But I know myself, and I know I would use it as a smokescreen for moral cowardice which is why I don’t do it.

The foundation of moral theology SHOULD be “do no harm and choose love” because that’s all God can really expect from any of us.

 

[Luce7]

@anon65111186, for now, I’m my own moral authority, That’s because I can only understand what I’ve been given in terms of moral teachings so far, so trying to act and live based on someone else’s would be foolhardy. It could lead to unforeseen consequences, like playing with fire!

It’s true, human life does begin at conception. But those cells are not a human body yet, they don’t feel pain, they have no spinal column. I would choose a conscious being that can feel pain over a being that isn’t fully formed yet.

Contraception provides many benefits to women with PCOS or serious hormone issues, and it prevents overpopulation and helps protect against STD’s. It also gives women power and prevents them being abused by unscrupulous men. We should NOT be prisoners to our child bearing abilities.

You’re quite right life is suffering. Jesus healed the sick didn’t he? He even raised the dead. That’s not natural either but he did it. I would never consign someone to prayer and suffering. What do you expect me to say to God at the end of my life? “I sided with your bible and hurt people because YOU said it was ok?” That’s like Adam passing the blame to eve. No. Take responsibility. If I’m wrong I go to hell, but at least I go knowing that I did the best I could, even when it was difficult and even if it set me against God’s instructions.

I don’t feel homosexual acts are wrong.

Jesus broke many rules and did any things the people at the time didn’t like, all in the name of a higher love. I never understand why the church dislikes people who seek love the same way. And if people feel they can’t seek love…you may never find your second Jesus.

 

[anon65111186]

I would choose a conscious being that can feel pain over a being that isn’t fully formed yet.

If you mean by choose , kill, then it goes back to the innocent murder problem. I can find you a number of situations where innocent adults have no consciousness and can feel no pain, like those in a coma, but we are not justified for any reason in killing them.

Contraception provides many benefits to women with PCOS or serious hormone issues, and it prevents overpopulation and helps protect against STD’s. It also gives women power and prevents them being abused by unscrupulous men. We should NOT be prisoners to our child bearing abilities

If everything were moral which brought a benefit, one could argue the benefits of the holocaust in regards to overpopulation in Europe, or some other twisted scenario.

Population control in itself a lack of choice and disempowering, one cannot choose to bring life into the world for the good of the population.

It helps protect against STD’s

Again, benefits don’t make something moral. There are other ways to avoid STD’s, namely abstinence and medication.

We should NOT be prisoners to our child bearing abilities.

How does having sex, which purpose is to conceive children, make anyone a prisoner? If people choose to have sex they must deal with the consequences, otherwise don’t do it.

I would never consign someone to prayer and suffering

What is wrong with prayer? Do you pray?

How is supporting transsexual surgery alleviating suffering, many studies show that transsexual persons have a higher rate of depression and suicide, it seems to only further isolate them from a sane state of mind and society.

What do you expect me to say to God at the end of my life?

God will rather ask, did you love, did you obey my commands, did you listen to my words. The Bible is God’s word. If you do not “side with” the Bible and the proper understanding of it, then you are siding yourself against God.

I don’t feel homosexual acts are wrong.

You know or you feel they are wrong? Feelings can mislead us, and they often do. Why do you feel this way? Is this what your conscience tells you? Be honest.

Jesus broke many rules and did any things the people at the time didn’t like, all in the name of a higher love.

Which rules did Jesus break exactly? Did he break His own rules or contradict Himself?

Sinning in the name of love is wrong. Jesus never sinned.

 

[Limoncello4021]

I can’t think of anything more terrifying than for people to declare themselves their own moral authority.
When the disciples left Jesus in droves after one of his “hard sayings,” Peter responded to Jesus, “Lord to whom shall we go?” It is still such a relevant question.

 

[Anesis]

This is not permitted. If you see this happening, you need to report it to the Bishop.

A parish IS allowed to charge a “usage fee” for the use of the Church for a Nuptial Mass or big ceremony. There are a lot of expenses the Church incurs as the result of these. And it’s only right for you to pay the organist for playing at your wedding, that’s not paying for a sacrament. But baptism, confirmation, confession all cost nothing. It’s nice to give the celebrant a little monetary gift at a baptism because priests don’t make much and it’s just a nice thing to show appreciation, but it is not expected. I’ve never heard of anyone being charged for any sacrament.

 

[anon65111186]

I can’t think of anything more terrifying than for people to declare themselves their own moral authority.

Exactly, it is formally saying, I decide right and wrong. Noone else can tell me what is right or wrong, I am the arbiter of truth.

Not a few very dangerous people in the history of earth have taken this position and the results were horrific.

 

[jfz178]

Well we all decide right and wrong for ourselves. Sin is a matter of individual conscience. If we bring a priest/confessor into it, then he has a role also. What your are talking about is someone being a moral authority for everyone else, which indeed is wrong.

If you choose to cite a source for your own personal decision, that is valid for you. If you try to force that choice on everyone else based on that source, you are doing exactly what you are complaining about.

 

[anon65111186]

Well we all decide right and wrong for ourselves

Do we decide in the sense that we can say murder, stealing, adultery, lying is right?

We don’t have a choice, we can’t say murder is right, and make it so.

We cannot, because those are not for us to decide. We can’t decide whether it is wrong to murder an innocent person, it is absolutely wrong.