If YOU could.change the Catholic Church

[Spyridon]

Of course you cannot cooperate without grace.

The normal mode of Salvation comes by grace through faith.

 

[steido01]

I’m uncomfortable with wording it as “cooperation,” which is implicitly active. That says we contribute to our salvation, which affords us glory that’s due to God alone.

It’s much more scripturally sound, in my opinion, to say we’ve simply “not acted on our free will to reject it,” which is passive. God does all the work, and accordingly gets all the glory.

Paul calls us dead in our sins. Dead things cannot cooperate.

 

[AugustTherese]

Paul calls us dead in our sins. Dead things cannot cooperate

No, Saint Paul said this: “You were dead through the trespasses and sins…” (Ephesians 2:1)

He writes that we “were dead”, not are dead. But, if you read on, you will notice this: “But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ.” (Ephesians 2:4,5)

I assure you, being “alive together with Christ”, we can cooperate with grace.

 

[steido01]

Correct! That’s what I’m saying.

What you describe is not part of our Justification; it is Sanctification. The horse goes before the cart. Indeed, the Lutheran Confessions read:

…as the Holy Spirit has begun his work of rebirth and renewal in us through the Word and the holy sacraments, it is certain that on the basis of the his power we can and should be cooperating with him.

 

[AugustTherese]

What you describe is not part of our Justification; it is Sanctification. The horse goes before the cart.

“But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” 1 Corinthians 6:11

Notice, sanctification, at least semantically, precedes justification in this verse.

 

[PJM]

As a Lutheran, you’d only change things, OR are these t]your top priorities?

I’m the OP

God Bless you

Partick

 

[SanRafael1102]

The magic wand of Catholic Changification falls into my hands. They tell me that I can alter anything that isn’t magisterially nailed to the floor. They say that it’ll be our little secret. So here it goes:

1. I’d restore a portion of the smells and bells. I don’t believe that the EF is the answer for everybody. For some people, the NO is the right direction. Nonetheless, I would restore an amount of the Catholic flair to the Mass that builds up the Church’s identity. Beautiful ornate altars, incense, latin responses, kryie eleison(s), side altars, more traditional crucifixes, ect.
2. Better classes for young Catholics. We can’t blame these people for going up for Communion while in unnatural marital arrangements IF the Church doesn’t tell them that it’s not in the right. I know Catholics that don’t do Confession (like evvvvver) because they don’t know what it is; essentially, they remember the nuns taking their class to confession, but were never told why they were being made to go. There’s such a rich Catholic heritage there, that it’s a shame that any of our kids don’t at least know about it.
3. As long as I have the magic wand and don’t have to explain away my own ineptness at coming up with the “how:” The Church would have the perfect process to handle the abuse crisis. Honestly, in my experience (and the plural of anecdote is not data!), the crisis and its handling has probably pushed countless young men I encountered away from vocations. We’d hear that it happened, and the MSM would be more than happy to tell us why the Vatican wasn’t doing enough about it, or covering it up. So, if I have wishes, then I would solve this problem.
4. Every diocese would have its own Catholic school…with numerous scholarships. These would have all of the academic courses that your public school boasts (save maybe some of the federally mandated hogwash), as well as top-notch athletics programs, and extra-curricular activities.
5. Any school, university, or institution that calls itself Catholic that doesn’t adhere to Catholic teachings or principles will be publicly disavowed by the Church. There will be a list that you can be redeemed off of only after going through a very arduous review process. It’d be in your best interest to just not get on the list to begin with.

There’s my five. I’m not altering any dogmas, but just trying to stimulate the joint.

Pax

 

[steido01]

If I could make those two changes, I’d die a very happy man.

I also wouldn’t mind putting Benedict XVI back on the top job. But that’s much smaller of a wish.

 

[Jaytee]

Lift ban on female priests.

 

[PJM]

My Dear friend in Chris, it seems fitting today being Christ-MASS to respond to your POST on lifting the “Ban” on female priest

We know from the Bible and Christmas that Jesus [GOD] become MAN on this day some 2,000 years ago

St. John Paul II, in his INfallible Apostolic Letter

ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS

Ordinatio Sacerdotalis (May 22, 1994) | John Paul II

APOSTOLIC LETTER
ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS
OF JOHN PAUL II
TO THE BISHOPS
OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON RESERVING PRIESTLY ORDINATION
TO MEN ALONE

Explained that the “church” is not creating some new Doctrine in reserving the Catholic Priesthood to MEN alone; but She [The CHurch] CANNOT; not “will-not” EVER teach or permit a Priesthood NOT reserverfed by GOD to Men.

In summary here are the reasons given:

1. Ordination is one of the Seven Sacraments Instituted By Jesus Christ; and NO power on Earth can override or change it
2. Sacred Tradition: God throughout recorded History has always chosen Men ]the Male gender] to be the Leaders of His Chosen People:

From Noah, Abram, Moses. the Judges, the Kings like David & Solomon, the Prophets like Mica and Isaiah, to John the Baptist, who introduced Jesus, whos choose 12 MEN to b e His Apostles [Mt 10:1-4]

1. And this is the CORE; the unchangeable FACTOR: is Really, Truly and Substantially Present in Catholic Holy Communion; NOT as a “sign”; NOT as a “symbol”; NOT as a “reminder”; BUT the very same Jesus who hung on the Cross, is made literally PRESENT time and time again, as even Jesus Christ can only DIE once for us.

“And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body.”
[Matthew 26:26]

“And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me.”
[Luke 22:19]

“And whilst they were eating, Jesus took bread; and blessing, broke, and gave to them, and said: Take ye. This is my body.”
[Mark 14:22]

“And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me.”
[1 Corinthians 11:24] [PAUL]

John 6: [50] This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.
[56] For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. [57] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him

These ARE literal teachings; hence ONLY a Male gender Priesthood can emulate the VERY BODY of Christ.

IN the Consecration, the instant of the Transubstantiation; the PRIEST ACTUALLY becomes “Alter Christi” ANOTHER CHRIST. … This dear friend is why it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Catholic Priesthood to ever be.

You can and should read the document for yourself.

I provided the LINK above

God Bless you
Patrick [PJM] The OP of this string

 

[PJM]

My Atheist friend;
Thank you for sharing.
BUT you chosen NAME is NOT suited for this FORUM

After 2,000 YEARS has it maybe occurred to YOU, that your suggestion of selling ALL the wealth of the RCC to feed the hungry has not been asked & suggested a great many times? NOT that it isn’t a worthy question.
So for your edification here’s why it hasn’t happened.

1st you should know that Catholic Charities is consistently on the top 100 WORLD-WIDE charities list. This can be Googled.

2nd. Mark.14:7 “For you always have the poor with you, and whenever you will, you can do good to them; but you will not always have me.”

Being an Atheist, perhaps you have little or no familiarity with the Bible, which By The Way is a Catholic Book that is divided into 2 major sections: “BC” Before Christ termed the “Old Testament” & “AD” After [Christ] Death termed the “New Testament.

Eventually the bible was divided further into chapters and verses for easier reference and READING. So First is the name of the Author or NAME of the book, then the Chapter and then the verses. For Example. Exodus 26: 29 is the Book of “Exodus” Chapter 26 and verse #29, [&] 32; 30: 3- [to] 5 & so on

Exodus 26: [29] The boards also themselves thou shalt overlay with gold, and shall cast rings of gold to be set upon them, for places for the bars to hold together boardwork: which bars thou shalt cover with plates of gold

Exodus 30 [3] And thou shalt overlay it with the purest gold, as well as the grate thereof, as the walls round about and the horns. And thou shalt make to it a crown of gold round about, [4] And two golden rings under the crown on either side, that the bars may be put into them, and the altar be carried. [5] And thou shalt make the bars also of setim wood, and shalt overlay them with gold.

Chapters 25 to 30+ are GOD directly giving very specific instruction to Moses on exactly HOW Moses was to Build for Him [GOD] the ark of the Covenant and a Sanctuary [we’d call it a “church” today]; and it is GOD Himself demanding the Gold. Silver and Purple cloth [sign of a “king”]; SO FROM this3,000 year old teaching the RCC has always provded the very finest CHURCHES they could afford [even with suffering] to give True and Rightful homes for the GOD that created the Universe and sustains ALL living things.
3td on the issue of the pathetic perversions of certain Priest:

It is NOTABLE that The “Church” like Jesus Himself CANNOT sin. It is the people in Her [the Church] that ARE sinners. It is critically signifient that as a Worldwide organization with more than 1 BILLION members; there are a certain number of priestly-perverts in Her ranks. 3% are estimated to be evil and horrid; while 97% are good and usually faithful.

Much is made of the 3% which is the tail wagging the dog. The RCC has and continues to do VERY much good; and Rome has made MANY serious efforts to church; to cull, to seek out these evil and SICK men; but are at times Blocked by equally evil Bishops who are do a CTA action. May GOD have mercy on them. Rome Can and HAS instituted more than reasonable guidelines; BUT they must be accepted and implemented; which SADLY does not always happen.

[PJM] the OP

 

[PJM]

The magic wand of Catholic Changification falls into my hands. They tell me that I can alter anything that isn’t magisterially nailed to the floor. They say that it’ll be our little secret. So here it goes:

I’d restore a portion of the smells and bells. I don’t believe that the EF is the answer for everybody. For some people, the NO is the right direction. Nonetheless, I would restore an amount of the Catholic flair to the Mass that builds up the Church’s identity. Beautiful ornate altars, incense, latin responses, kryie eleison(s), side altars, more traditional crucifixes, ect.

ABSOLUTELY AGREE: Amen!

Better classes for young Catholics. We can’t blame these people for going up for Communion while in unnatural marital arrangements IF the Church doesn’t tell them that it’s not in the right. I know Catholics that don’t do Confession (like evvvvver) because they don’t know what it is; essentially, they remember the nuns taking their class to confession, but were never told why they were being made to go. There’s such a rich Catholic heritage there, that it’s a shame that any of our kids don’t at least know about it.

As A Catholic Catechist for nearly 30 years; I HEAR YA!

But it’s not just the young people; it’s their parents and even many grand-parents who have not been taught the Faith. So our Faith was not handed on because it was “short-circuited” at the grand-parent /parent levels. Father Hardon often told US that “you CAN’T” share what you don’t have. AMEN!

Pre-Vatican II homilies were OFEN instruction ON the Faith; not dare I say; explaining the Readings

s long as I have the magic wand and don’t have to explain away my own ineptness at coming up with the “how:” The Church would have the perfect process to handle the abuse crisis. Honestly, in my experience (and the plural of anecdote is not data!), the crisis and its handling has probably pushed countless young men I encountered away from vocations. We’d hear that it happened, and the MSM would be more than happy to tell us why the Vatican wasn’t doing enough about it, or covering it up. So, if I have wishes, then I would solve this problem.

If this were not a public forum I would share some information with you. I certainly agree that the Church Objectively has not done a “good jib” of handling this issue; even sadder is the fact that it has NOT been “Rome’s” fault or lack of effort.

CONTINUED ON NEXT POST

 

[PJM]

CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST

Every diocese would have its own Catholic school…with numerous scholarships. These would have all of the academic courses that your public school boasts (save maybe some of the federally mandated hogwash), as well as top-notch athletics programs, and extra-curricular activities.

I recall when many parishes HAD their own School; STAFFED by Religious. Today’s remaining schools are often staffed by Lay folk; sometimes not even CATHOLICS. So having One per diocese would be but a very small dent in the PROBLEM. Still I’m very much in favor of “lighting one candle rather than cursing the darkness”

Any school, university, or institution that calls itself Catholic that doesn’t adhere to Catholic teachings or principles will be publicly disavowed by the Church. There will be a list that you can be redeemed off of only after going through a very arduous review process. It’d be in your best interest to just not get on the list to begin with.

There’s my five. I’m not altering any dogmas, but just trying to stimulate the joint.

Pax

In post Vatican II times Catholic Education quickly slipped from good to poor to pathetic. This is NOTABLY true of Self-proclaimed Universities like Notre Dame.

As the OP of this string; I wish I COULD stop at 5; but alas there will be [GW] a tomorrow.

THANKS for the stroll down memory lane. I recall with a SMIRK a thread that tried to make the case the Pre-Vatican II, and Post Vatican II had a very similar church; or some such ill-informed position

God Bless you FRIEND,
Patrick [PJM]

 

[Dymphna82]

If I could change the Church(and I have no desire to), I’d have the Vatican takeover the U. S., and have more curbside confessionals(which was done by a priest recently).
Just things to help get us back on track in the West.

I trust the Church is doing what is meant to.

 

[AlNg]

People’s jaws would hit the floor in a Protestant Church if one were rude enough to walk out before the last hymn was over

I doubt that people’s jaws would hit the floor if someone walked out before the last hymn.

 

[Gingersnaps4]

I doubt that people’s jaws would hit the floor if someone walked out before the last hymn.

I grew up Protestant and everyone always stays until the very end, ALWAYS. So yes, it would be seen as extremely rude to walk out early if there weren’t some type of emergency.

 

[AlNg]

I was at a Protestant service and someone left early but toward the end and I didn’t see anyone’s jaw hit the floor.

 

[Gingersnaps4]

That’s great! But I’ll bet if whole sections of people started fleeing, the people remaining would be pretty stunned. That’s more the type of thing I was talking about.