If you could, what changes if any would you make to the Ordinary Form?

[Genesis315]

This is one of those areas where different currents of reform kind of worked against each other. Some wanted the simplification of rites to better foster active participation and some wanted vernacular to encourage better understanding. The problem is, once the rites were simplified, there was a lot less to understand in the vernacular.

The same happened with turning the priest around. This was supposed to foster the faithful being able to see and concentrate on what was happening on the altar. But, again, the simplification of rites made there be a whole lot less to see going on.

 

[giuseppe96]

Perhaps they could’ve simplified the prayers while keeping the priest facing east and the prayers in Latin.

 

[ConfirmedAgnes]

ProVobis, I agree to an extent. But if I don’t know the language at all, my mind and ears are just confused.

I went to a Mass in Germany years back. The Mass was in German, and I knew the language somewhat, thus I could listen to and understand parts of the Mass. The parts I couldn’t understand, I just said to myself under my breath in English. It was wonderful that the Mass was universal enough that I could still participate and know what was going on despite the language barrier.

But I know it’s personal preference! I just know a good number of people who feel left out when the Mass is in Latin because they can’t figure out what’s going on. For others, I see, it’s enjoyable. What’s beautiful about hearing the mass in a language you understand is you can see all the places the Mass directly connects to scripture, which I love. But I know for Latin, there are other reasons it’s beautiful, such as its beautiful sound and how it’s a never-changing language.

Anywho, just wanted to share another perspective on the idea! Because I adore traditional masses!

 

[ProVobis]

Comment appreciated but I know people who go bonkers when they hear “Kyrie Eleison” and will complain.

But I guess the squeaky wheel usually gets the oil. So “Lord have mercy” it is.

 

[CilladeRoma]

I would not change one thing.

After reading all these comments, I guess my question is why change the OF, Benedict allowed the option if the EF, so go to that. If you don’t have one, find other like-minded people and petition for one.

 

[giuseppe96]

That’s true. But the EF isn’t always easily accessible. If it were, I’d attend regularly, but the nearest parish is too far for me to travel. My parish celebrates the OF very reverently, but there are just a few things that could be improved upon it.

 

[Reuben_J]

JimG:

Hmm. I consider a 15 minute homily excessively lengthy

I agree. I also heard that 8 minutes is the ideal length for a homily. Otherwise, people’s attention starts to wander.

Have to agree with this. Some of my reason is being practical. When our children were still small, a lengthy mass was quite often an ordeal for us (to keep the children still).

As for the homily, I would prefer when possible though not necessarily always be, a concise explanation of the readings and maybe clear message for the day. Priests, however, are not always good speakers, some may find it difficult to articulate points briefly, for those I would give allowance. That’s why it should not be too long.

Since the homily is a part of the mass, it should not take most of the mass’ time disproportionally.

It is different when mass is celebrated in seminars or conferences, where often times the conference’s theme is being taught in the mass as well, especially if the key speaker is celebrating.

 

[OraLabora]

I used to go to 7 am weekday Mass at St Joseph’s Oratory in Montreal, when I worked in the city. Once in a while, the rector would be the celebrant and his homilies were always a treat. Obviously on a weekday before work a homily will be brief, but he had it down to an art form. One or two short sentences, based on the day’s reading, that were so incisive they’d stick in your mind all day. Always gave me food for thought for the day.

 

[dochawk]

Oh, so Jesus died on the Cross for you, but you can’t deal with a 25 minute homily.

Interesting.

You think a 25 minute homily is effective.

Interesting.

Years ago, one of our priests came back from a homiletics course and had changed from “run of the mill” to “very good”.

We talked to him about it. He told us that the most important thing they taught him was “7 minutes.” In short, they taught him that most priests were wasting their breath after that point.

It’s not about willingness, but about human attention span.

Now, there are priests that can go longer than that and keep the attention of the congregation–but they are rare. Not only that, these few are generally organized enough that they get their thoughts down to that time period, anyway. (in fact, my current priest is one of those that can go far longer without losing his audience).

We had at my former RCC parish an extremely intelligent African priest, who taught at a very high level. Now, I hold a PhD jointly in Economics and Statistics, as well as my JD. I can sit through a 600 level class and absorb it, and teach it as a 500 level a day or two later.

I say this not to boast, but to put the rest into context. I managed, in spite of his accent, to follow his entire homily one week. It was brilliant. And it was also enough content for a couple of 400 level hour long classes . . .

There might have been one or two more people in the thousands present who managed to follow, but not half a dozen. It was wonderful work, very well organized, and over the heads . . .

sidetone: I had a friend in grad school who didn’t get a job he ha been considered a lock for when he stumbled when asked to express his teaching philosophy in 25 words. I was shocked–I would have 20 words left over . . . (but then, I averaged two sentences a question on two or three question, hour long, philosophy classes . . . it enraged my roommate who would write for an hour solid, and get an A to my A+ :crazy_face:)

hawk

 

[Gingersnaps4]

Haha! Kids aren’t singing though. It’s adults singing but it sounds like they are singing for kids, to me. I try to go to other masses to avoid being annoyed by it.

 

[Peeps]

I don’t buy the “short human attention span” argument.

I grew up in the Evangelical Protestant denominations, mainly Baptist, although over the first 47 years of my life, I was active in several other denominations–Christian church (Campbellite), Christian and Missionary Alliance, Reformed Church in America (not really Evangelical, but they like to think of themselves as Evangelical), and EFree.

ALWAYS–the pastor’s message (sermon) would last at LEAST 30 minutes! Usually the sermon was 45 minutes.

And we paid attention. We really did. We opened our Bibles and followed along, we took notes, we responded with an occasional “Amen”.

I am not romanticizing.

Oh, I’m sure there were people who slept through it, but most of us paid attention because the MESSAGE, the preaching of the Word of God, was the MAIN REASON we came to church. Yes, the other 45 minutes of worship service was good–music was wonderful, the prayer time was encouraging, the testimony time was inspiring, the announcements were important, and the offering was our opportunity to give back. At least once a year, we would read the Apostles Creed out of the back of our hymnals. And often we would have a guest–a missionary, a representative from the denomination, a former member who was in town visiting, a representative from the youth group who would report on a recent youth activity, etc.

But it was the SERMON that we came to hear. And we really did listen. Even as an older child (younger children went to Children’s Church), I listened and took notes, and I would talk about the sermon afterwards with my friends or my mother. As a teenager, I was completely immersed in the sermon, as were the others in our youth group, and we would take lots of notes and then discuss the sermon in our youth group and apply it to our lives as young people. And older folks would meet during the week to talk about the sermon.

I still have a file cabinet in the basement full of sermon notes. I just can’t bear to toss them, even though I haven’t read over them in years.

Humans are very capable of paying attention to a speech for longer than 7 minutes. Think of all the college students, especially those in the medical majors, who routinely listen to hour long lectures about brains and cells and the Kreb’s Cycle! These students not only have to memorize these things, but understand them!

I’ve read that St. Anthony of Padua would speak for hours, and huge crowds of people flocked to hear him! So short homilies have not always been the norm for Catholic Mass!

We have speakers at our parish all the time who give special missions or seminars, and they talk for at least an hour, sometimes more! We have a Catholic Medical Organization that gives seminars once a month, and their speakers (often doctors) will speak for over an hour, and people pay attention and drink in every wise word.

I think Catholics have just gotten used to a 5-minute homily and now they think that’s the way it should be done. But it’s sad when we claim that we are only capable of paying attention for only a few minutes. I don’t buy it.

 

[Wandile]

• Restore ad orientem worhsip
• Communion kneeling and on the tongue only except for the aged and physically incapable.
• Restore Latin and only allow vernacular for the readings of scripture
• Restore the prayers at the foot of the altar
• All male sanctuary with male altar servers only
• Communion distributed by clergy only (deacons, priests and bishops)
• Restore the minor orders
• Everyone in the sanctuary should be vested
• Use of incense should be mandatory
• Gregorian chant should be the predominant form of music
• Sign of peace should be limited to you your immediate neighbors to the left and right of you
• Restore the older confetior and Roman canon
• The Roman canon should be the only Eucharistic prayer.
• Optionality should be completely and utterly done away with.
• Restore the Leonian prayers.

 

[Autumn-Smoke]

I would go back to saying, “It is right to give Him thanks and praise.”

And I would ditch the “Consubstantial with the Father” phrase and go back to something simpler.
Mass shouldn’t require a dictionary, but should be understandable even by little children.

 

[Peeps]

Just curious—

How do you handle a typical OF Mass? Isn’t it difficult when you dislike almost everything about the OF?

I’m not asking this to be mean-spirited, but because I know that when you really dislike something that is a life requirement (e.g., going to the doctor, attending the annual family reunion, showing up for jury duty, etc.) it’s just so miserable. It drags your soul down.

Or do you regularly attend the EF?

One more thing–can you explain what “vested” means? Although I have been Catholic now for 14 years, I have never heard that term. Thanks!

 

[Wandile]

Just curious—

How do you handle a typical OF Mass? Isn’t it difficult when you dislike almost everything about the OF

Well I don’t dislike most of the mass. I just think it could and have seen it done better with most of the things I mentioned. I handle OF mass well.

I urge you to go on YouTube and search for “Ordinary form in latin” or “ordinary form done well” or “ordinary form done ad orientem” and just marvel at what you see. When it’s done well, you can truly see that it was a reform of the Tridentine rite rather than how it looks most of the time (a completely new liturgy rather than a reform).

I’m not asking this to be mean-spirited, but because I know that when you really dislike something that is a life requirement (e.g., going to the doctor, attending the annual family reunion, showing up for jury duty, etc.) it’s just so miserable. It drags your soul down.

Or do you regularly attend the EF?

Never attended EF in my life as it’s not very available where I’m from (South Africa).

One more thing–can you explain what “vested” means? Although I have been Catholic now for 14 years, I have never heard that term. Thanks!

Simply put that lay readers should at least have some form of “liturgical garb” rather than normal clothing if they are to read during mass on a Sunday.

Vested simply means liturgical dress (like priests, deacons and altar servers have)

 

[KyPerson]

What would I do?

• More times of silence.
• No singing during communion!!! In my parish we don’t. The choir sings a short Eucharistic hymn after communion though.
• Have the sign of peace just before Mass, not during it.
• Can I mention more silence? I love peace and quiet and it is getting very, very hard to find in public places.
• Omit the prayers of the faithful. I think they are for the most part banal. Whoever writes them has fallen down on the job. And when we have members of the congregation chime in, they can get VERY long winded.
• And most important for the priest: Say the black, do the red. It’s the Mass, it’s not YOUR personal performance.

 

[Autumn-Smoke]

Use of incense should be mandatory

My husband couldn’t attend mass then…puts him into an asthma attack every time. Asthma is very prevalent where I live. So glad it’s only used rarely…even though I like it myself.

 

[ProVobis]

I would go back to saying, “It is right to give Him thanks and praise.”

And I would ditch the “Consubstantial with the Father” phrase and go back to something simpler.
Mass shouldn’t require a dictionary, but should be understandable even by little children.

The intent of the new English translation was to be more literal to the Latin. This way it would be more translatable to other local vernaculars such as in Nigeria where there are no Latinists. Changing the English at this point would be a very bad idea.

 

[babochka]

After five minutes, minds start to wander away but that isn’t the greatest reason. I have rarely heard a homily that acceded 15 minutes that did not do a lot of repeats. It is my opinion that short homilies focus better on the message. Greater than 15 not only repeat but are padded with unrelated ideas. Archbishop Malcolm Ranjith believes that homilies longer than 15 were the result of scarce preparation and are a type of liturgical abuse. An opinion with which i agree. Bishop Nikola Eterović believes that the the attention span is 8 minutes which I tend to agree with also. My reasoning than is on the attention span of the parishioners and the quality of the homily is improved by limiting the time.

Tell that to the great orators of the past - St. John Chrystostom, St. Ambrose… Maybe modern-day human beings need to refine our listening and attention skills to bring them to the level of our forefatheea

 

[babochka]

My own thoughts on the matter are that a language you don’t fully understand makes your mind and ears work a little harder. Nothing wrong with that once in a while.

I actually agree with you here. Although I strongly believe in regularly worshipping in the vernacular, I appreciate an occasional Mass or Divine Liturgy in a language that I don’t understand. It allows me to be less engaged in the intellectual aspect of faith and more engaged in a less quantifiable way. But still, I would not like to see a return to an all-Latin Mass.