If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?

[benedictus2]

The CC didn’t come up with the Bible. The letters were written as inspired by the Holy Spirit and preserved by Him.

Yes they were written and inspired by the Holy Spirit and who did the Holy Spirit inspire but the first members of the Catholic Church.

The CC was an instrument the Holy Spirit used to put it together.

Correct on that one too.

ALL the glory goes to the Holy Spirit.

Giving glory to the Church which is after all the Body and Bride of Christ does not detract from the glory given to the Holy Spirit

The Bible is not for private interpretation, even by any church.

The Bible is to be interpreted by the Church that came forth from the Holy Spirit - the Catholic Church.

Since the Holy Spirit was responsible for the birth of the Church then it stands to reason that it is this Church that the Holy Spirit guides.

The interpretation of the Bible is up to the Holy Spirit ONLY.

And how do you know when the Holy Spirit is said to be inspiring the interpretation. What is the criteria?

 

[benedictus2]

And it is biblical! What does Jesus ask of us every day??? He asked people to profess His Truth - To acknowledge Him and John the Baptist called people to come forth and be baptized.

An Alter Call is just a form of acknowledging our need for Christ - A VERY public one. I have witnessed a few myself and it is moving to see people put aside their pride and humbly come forth to receive Christ and be prayed for.

I have no doubt of the sincerity of the people who do this. This tradition however is not Biblical in the sense that this manner of acknowledging our need for Christ is not found in the Bible.

This is definitely a tradition of man. One started only by Baptists I think but I could be wrong about that.

Again, biblical! There is no magic prayer and if you can find one I would like to see it! What is referred to as ‘The Sinner’s Prayer’ is a prayer that one prays acknowledging they are sinners and that they need Christ…

No, this also is not Biblical; a good prayer but not Biblical. There is nowhere in the Bible that says that by reciting the sinners prayer one is saved. It is okay to acknowledge your sins but to say that all of a sudden you are saved is not quite correct.

What is clear in the Bible is that “baptism saves”., those who eat the Lord’s flesh and drink His Blood has eternal life and that Jesus said to His apostles – whosoever sins you forgive they are forgiven, who soever sins you retain they are retained.

These are what is clear in the Bible.

That being said - When you lump us all (meaning non-catholics) together you end up telling me I follow traditions, doctrines and beliefs that I don’t actually hold and therefore you put words in my mouth and end up driving a wedge in our communication. It’s not becoming of ANYONE…

Yes, that is the sorry state of mess that Protestantism is today. There are so many variants it’s hard to follow them. Do you think this is what Christ had in mind when He established His Church, that 1500 years some will start their own Churches and then it will be a free for all after all.

But having said that, I do have a great admiration for Protestants who are sincerely in love with Christ and are not afraid to proclaim Him as Lord even to the point of ridicule.

I depend on more than just Scripture to guide me but I do believe that Scripture cannot be ignored in your walk with God. So I guess you can say I don’t believe in Sola Scriptura…

What else do you depend on ?

This is Faith only, right? Nope, don’t subscribe to this either. The Bible states that it is through our Faith that we obtain Grace

from God to be Saved, you can’t have one without the other.
See this kind of phrasing is the one that grates with with me.

We “obtain grace through faith”. So does this mean that you have to have faith first then God gives your Grace?.

Where did the faith come from? Based on the above it seems you are saying that faith is of your own making…

What about those without faith, does that mean God withholds His Grace from them?

 

[benedictus2]

Hi Singin Beauty,

I smiled when I noticed your signature. :**** “I am a 33yr old female just looking for God… Luckily it’s not like ‘Where’s Waldo’….”

I was reminded of what C.S. Lewis said. "From the Bibilcal point of view, speaking about man’s search for God is like speaking about the mouse’s search for the cat."

We are not looking for God because God is not lost. We however are wayyyyyy lost.

But the Hound of Heaven is ever at our heels in search of us and all we need to do is to turn around and we are found.

Turn around.

And the search is over.:heaven:

 

[Singinbeauty]

Altar calls are biblical as is the sinner’s prayer? Please provide the Scripture.

I thought I did in stating that for alter calls Jesus asks us to proclaim and acknowledge that we need Him along with John the Baptist (along with the disciples) stating that we should come forth and be baptized…

The so called ‘Sinner’s Prayer’ is the same thing - the first step of walking your Faith with God is to acknowledge that you need Him and that you are a sinner… Like I said in my post, there is no magical prayer, it is the acknowledgement you make to God and how do we talk to God? Through prayer. There are NO set words, just the setiment behind the prayer. We are sinners and need Christ. There are several books in the bible that hold teachings to this very thing.

We are sinners and need Christ - how is acknowledging this fact (through alter calls and the Sinner’s Prayer) NOT biblical???

 

[Singinbeauty]

One question I have: why is it called an “altar” call, when there’s no altar in your church?

THAT - I don’t know. It may have been a term used and it stuck… *shrug

 

[benedictus2]

I thought I did in stating that for alter calls Jesus asks us to proclaim and acknowledge that we need Him along with John the Baptist (along with the disciples) stating that we should come forth and be baptized…

The so called ‘Sinner’s Prayer’ is the same thing - the first step of walking your Faith with God is to acknowledge that you need Him and that you are a sinner… Like I said in my post, there is no magical prayer, it is the acknowledgement you make to God and how do we talk to God? Through prayer. There are NO set words, just the setiment behind the prayer. We are sinners and need Christ. There are several books in the bible that hold teachings to this very thing.

We are sinners and need Christ - how is acknowledging this fact (through alter calls and the Sinner’s Prayer) NOT biblical???

It is Biblically based but the tradition (as in a set practice) is not found in the Bible.

You will not find Jesus saying that if you pray the sinners prayer you are saved. Neither did Jesus say that you should pray this formulaic sinner’s prayer.

You will not find in the Bible that one should make an Altar Call.

Both these started only in the 1900s with the Baptists I think.

 

[Singinbeauty]

I have no doubt of the sincerity of the people who do this. This tradition however is not Biblical in the sense that this manner of acknowledging our need for Christ is not found in the Bible.

This is definitely a tradition of man. One started only by Baptists I think but I could be wrong about that.

So my question to you is - Do you not feel the need nor the desire to acknowledge your sinful nature to Christ. Is it something that just goes unsaid??? It is ALL OVER THE BIBLE my friend. From David acknowledging his sin of adultery to God to

Luke 15:7 - I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

I don’t believe that your future with Christ is bound by this prayer but it is the first step. Y’all act like this ‘prayer’ is viewed as magical by all non-catholics. It’s NOT and I don’t know how many times I have to keep saying that (perhaps til I am blue? ). You can’t move forward and understand Christ’s sacrifice until you acknowledge to yourself and God that you are, in fact, a sinner and need HIM.

What else do you depend on ?

God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, spiritual advice from my pastor and others who have walked with God longer than me - prayer and my Faith. There is no ‘Sola’ about any of that… When one doesn’t make sense the others will either support it or break it down.

See this kind of phrasing is the one that grates with with me.

We “obtain grace through faith”. So does this mean that you have to have faith first then God gives your Grace?.

Where did the faith come from? Based on the above it seems you are saying that faith is of your own making…

What about those without faith, does that mean God withholds His Grace from them?

Not sure where in my statement you saw that I said God witholds His Grace… I never said that - What I did say (and quoted from scripture) is that we obtain His Grace, which He holds out to us, by our Faith. If we don’t believe we don’t accept His gift of Grace. It isn’t Him witholding, it is US not accepting…

 

[Singinbeauty]

Hi Singin Beauty,

I smiled when I noticed your signature. :**** “I am a 33yr old female just looking for God… Luckily it’s not like ‘Where’s Waldo’…****.”

I was reminded of what C.S. Lewis said. "From the Bibilcal point of view, speaking about man’s search for God is like speaking about the mouse’s search for the cat."

We are not looking for God because God is not lost. We however are wayyyyyy lost.

But the Hound of Heaven is ever at our heels in search of us and all we need to do is to turn around and we are found.

Turn around.

And the search is over.:heaven:

Hence my signature saying ‘luckily it’s not like Where’s Waldo’ - He’s been here the whole time, it just took me acknowledging it… Which did happen over 20+ years ago. I do, however, find it hard to see Him in some of the posts on this board which is why I left for a while. I look for Him in everyone’s posts and unfortunately while defending their beliefs there are some who lose site of who they fight for in how they treat others… *sigh

 

[Singinbeauty]

It is Biblically based but the tradition (as in a set practice) is not found in the Bible.

You will not find Jesus saying that if you pray the sinners prayer you are saved. Neither did Jesus say that you should pray this formulaic sinner’s prayer.

You will not find in the Bible that one should make an Altar Call.

Both these started only in the 1900s with the Baptists I think.

Tell me - where is this Sinner’s Prayer that you refer to. For some reason I think you think it is an ACTUAL prayer that has set wording and is magical.

When you first believed, did you not acknowledge your need for Christ?

 

[benedictus2]

So my question to you is - Do you not feel the need nor the desire to acknowledge your sinful nature to Christ. Is it something that just goes unsaid??? It is ALL OVER THE BIBLE my friend. From David acknowledging his sin of adultery to God to

I do. And we do every time we go to confessin, attend Mass or and every time I become aware of a failing.

But is the **practice **of “Altar Calls” in the Bible.

Did Jesus say you should have Altar Calls in order for you to acknowledge your sins.

I don’t believe that your future with Christ is bound by this prayer but it is the first step. Y’all act like this ‘prayer’ is viewed as magical by all non-catholics. It’s NOT and I don’t know how many times I have to keep saying that (perhaps til I am blue?. You can’t move forward and understand Christ’s sacrifice until you acknowledge to yourself and God that you are, in fact, a sinner and need HIM.

And I think I will probably say this till I am blue in the face but the sinners’s prayer has nothing to do with it. We all need forgiveness and we all need Him but we do not need to do the sinners prayer. That prayer is not prescribed in the Bible.

The necessity of acknowledging one’s sins is.

God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, spiritual advice from my pastor and others who have walked with God longer than me - prayer and my Faith. There is no ‘Sola’ about any of that… When one doesn’t make sense the others will either support it or break it down.

But how do you know that their advice is correct? How do you know that the way they interpret the Bible is correct? I mean for all you know, they could be leading you down the wrong path.

Not sure where in my statement you saw that I said God witholds His Grace… I never said that

Well, it follows does it not. You said that when you have faith God will give you the Grace, i.e. faith is a pre-requisite to God giving you the grace.

  Let me put it another way around, will God still you Grace if you don’t have faith?

• What I did say (and quoted from scripture) is that we obtain His Grace, which He holds out to us, by our Faith. If we don’t believe we don’t accept His gift of Grace. It isn’t Him witholding, it is US

not accepting… And this is precisely what I was questioning. How do you come to faith?

  Since according to you faith is necessary before you can have Grace, then how do you get faith?

  Is faith of your own conjuring?

 

[benedictus2]

Tell me - where is this Sinner’s Prayer that you refer to. For some reason I think you think it is an ACTUAL prayer that has set wording and is magical.

The one some evangelicals tried to get me to recite so that I may be “saved” was a set one that they were asking us to pray.

It may vary but the gist is the same and that you are “saved” once you accept Jesus as Lord and saviour.

When you first believed, did you not acknowledge your need for Christ?

When I first believed? I can’t remember when I did not believe since i grew up in a family who has always believed. There was never a time when I did not considered myself a sinner nor was there a time when I thought I did not need Christ.

 

[benedictus2]

Hence my signature saying ‘luckily it’s not like Where’s Waldo’ - He’s been here the whole time, it just took me acknowledging it… Which did happen over 20+ years ago. I do, however, find it hard to see Him in some of the posts on this board which is why I left for a while.

How exactly do you expect to see Him in a post? Do you think that because a post is nicey-nicey He is there and if someone is passionate He is not there?

Grace cannot be pigeon holed.

I look for Him in everyone’s posts and unfortunately while defending their beliefs there are some who lose site of who they fight for in how they treat others… *sigh

Because some are passionate about what they believe does not mean that they lost sight of what they are fighting for.

Do no be misled into thinking that nice-nicey is always the path that God takes to lead you. Sometimes, He may think that a jolt and sharp word is necessary.

When you get aggravated, ask your self why you feel aggravated by these posts.

And at all instance, just look for Truth because that is where God is because He said I am the Truth.

 

[Singinbeauty]

How exactly do you expect to see Him in a post? Do you think that because a post is nicey-nicey He is there and if someone is passionate He is not there?

Grace cannot be pigeon holed.

Because some are passionate about what they believe does not mean that they lost sight of what they are fighting for.

Do no be misled into thinking that nice-nicey is always the path that God takes to lead you. Sometimes, He may think that a jolt and sharp word is necessary.

When you get aggravated, ask your self why you feel aggravated by these posts.

And at all instance, just look for Truth because that is where God is because He said I am the Truth.

I will be the first to admit - I am not a tree huggin’ hippy who thinks that the Christian life is all about hugs, rainbows and feelin’ good about one’s self. There are times when we all get jolted into what God is trying to tell us - but, there are those who leave God in the background while trying to defend what they think and believe. Not ALL but some …

And we have hijacked this thread long enough - you wanna go on and on about sinner’s prayers and alter calls I suggest you do so in a new thread. I probably won’t follow because you won’t read or hear what I am trying to say so there is no point…

 

[benedictus2]

I will be the first to admit - I am not a tree huggin’ hippy who thinks that the Christian life is all about hugs, rainbows and feelin’ good about one’s self. There are times when we all get jolted into what God is trying to tell us - but, there are those who leave God in the background while trying to defend what they think and believe. Not ALL but some …

And we have hijacked this thread long enough - you wanna go on and on about sinner’s prayers and alter calls I suggest you do so in a new thread. I probably won’t follow because you won’t read or hear what I am trying to say so there is no point…

Hey, I am not hijacking this thread. Just replying to your posts.

That’s the nature of threads though. It tends to meander here, there and everywhere until moderators step in.

And I do hear what you are saying but I don’t think you are hearing mine. Or maybe don’t want to hear mine.

But you’re right. This thread is derailed.

 

[Dokimas]

Let’s take a look at them - shall we?

I know from my previous experience here a couple of years ago that most catholics do not know what an alter call actually is (which means that some will argue against what they THINK it is and not ask questions which is ironically what they hate protestants to do… Huh) and what level of importance it holds.

And it is biblical! What does Jesus ask of us every day??? He asked people to profess His Truth - To acknowledge Him and John the Baptist called people to come forth and be baptized.

An Alter Call is just a form of acknowledging our need for Christ - A VERY public one. I have witnessed a few myself and it is moving to see people put aside their pride and humbly come forth to receive Christ and be prayed for.

Again, biblical! There is no magic prayer and if you can find one I would like to see it! What is referred to as ‘The Sinner’s Prayer’ is a prayer that one prays acknowledging they are sinners and that they need Christ - SHOCK, I bet you even a catholic or two (or maybe all of y’all) have acknowledged this to Christ, especially your first one when you came to know your need for Him… Yup, even catholics say a sinner’s prayer, because you can’t claim Christian if you don’t acknowledge your sin to God and your need for Him.

It’s not magical but it is the first step on your road to finding Him, whether it be as a catholic or a non-catholic…

I don’t know that it has to be immersion ONLY - I have never heard a hard ruling that this is the one and only way. You’d have to ask someone who holds hard and fast to this.

Don’t know how you can deny the Trinity and not sure that those who do are actually christians.

That being said - When you lump us all (meaning non-catholics) together you end up telling me I follow traditions, doctrines and beliefs that I don’t actually hold and therefore you put words in my mouth and end up driving a wedge in our communication. It’s not becoming of ANYONE…

I depend on more than just Scripture to guide me but I do believe that Scripture cannot be ignored in your walk with God. So I guess you can say I don’t believe in Sola Scriptura…

This is Faith only, right? Nope, don’t subscribe to this either. The Bible states that it is through our Faith that we obtain Grace from God to be Saved, you can’t have one without the other.

Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

I hope I have been able to shed SOME light on the items brought up…

You did a GREAT job. Thank you. God bless you.

PS You showed far more patience than I show and did a much better job responding.

 

[Dokimas]

Hence my signature saying ‘luckily it’s not like Where’s Waldo’ - He’s been here the whole time, it just took me acknowledging it… Which did happen over 20+ years ago. I do, however, find it hard to see Him in some of the posts on this board which is why I left for a while. I look for Him in everyone’s posts and unfortunately while defending their beliefs there are some who lose site of who they fight for in how they treat others… *sigh

Your voice is needed here. If I’m one of the ones who’s posts strayed from the love of God, I apologize. When you see me do this again, could you please send me a private message and I’ll publically apologized to the person I’ve shown unkindness to. And I’ll thank you.

 

[Dokimas]

benedictus2:
Well, it follows does it not. You said that when you have faith God will give you the Grace, i.e. faith is a pre-requisite to God giving you the grace.

  Let me put it another way around, will God still you Grace if you don’t have faith?
  And this is precisely what I was questioning. How do you come to faith? 

  Since according to you faith is necessary before you can have Grace, then how do you get faith?

  Is faith of your own conjuring?

May I add my opinion to this conversation? If no, disregard this please.

Grace is like the air we need to breath, it’s all around up. (Titus 2:11,12) Our faith is like breathing. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Faith has at least 3 components:

1. The Object: for Christians that object is Jesus, God the Son (Hebrew 12:1,2)
2. The correct beliefs about the object. (Matthew 16:15,16)
3. A response to the commands of the Object. (Ephesians 2:10; James2:20,22,26)

BTW, faith is far more than belief: the demons believe. (James 2:19) What good did that do them?

 

[benedictus2]

May I add my opinion to this conversation? If no, disregard this please.

Grace is like the air we need to breath, it’s all around up. (Titus 2:11,12) Our faith is like breathing. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Faith has at least 3 components:

1. The Object: for Christians that object is Jesus, God the Son (Hebrew 12:1,2)
2. The correct beliefs about the object. (Matthew 16:15,16)
3. A response to the commands of the Object. (Ephesians 2:10; James2:20,22,26)

BTW, faith is far more than belief: the demons believe. (James 2:19) What good did that do them?

But my question is do we come up with faith by our selves?

 

[benedictus2]

Your voice is needed here. If I’m one of the ones who’s posts strayed from the love of God, I apologize. When you see me do this again, could you please send me a private message and I’ll publically apologized to the person I’ve shown unkindness to. And I’ll thank you.

Personally, I have not seen a post from you that I would classify as having strayed from the love of God.

I would say that only the atheists post can be classified as such (understandably so)

Posts meant to instruct, even if done harshly, is still done in the love of God Some need a harsh tone because they can be jolted out of complacency.

 

[Dokimas]

But my question is do we come up with faith by our selves?

Did you read Hebrews 12:2? That gives my answer where ‘saving faith’ comes from. Everyone has faith, seems to be God given. Most don’t place that faith on the correct Object.