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benedictus2
Guest
But all that says is Jesus is the leader and perfecter of faith. So there was already faith but he leads and perfects it.
But where did faith in Jesus originate from? Did we come up with faith by our selves?
If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?
- Status
But where did faith in Jesus originate from? Did we come up with faith by our selves?
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Dokimas
Guest
I think the Greek brings out that Jesus is more than the leader:
747 αρχηγος archegos ar-khay-gos’
from 746 and 71; TDNT-1:487,81; adj
AV-prince 2, captain 1, author 1; 4
- the chief leader, prince
1a) of Christ - one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer
- the author
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Eric_Hilbert
Guest
**66 posts pruned from this thread. 
The author of the OP has kindly asked a return to the topic.
I highly suggest the same. **
The author of the OP has kindly asked a return to the topic.
I highly suggest the same. **
J
JustaServant
Guest
The Early Church Fathers had no problem referring to Mary as the Mother of God. They saw it as a natural consequence of the Incarnation.
Irenaeus
The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).
Hippolytus
[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth, and the manner of his life and conversation with men, and his manifestation by baptism, and the new birth that was to be to all men, and the regeneration by the laver [of baptism] (Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).
Gregory the Wonderworker
For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary, the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David (Four Homilies 1 [A.D. 262]).
It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the feast of] the Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, “Hail, full of grace!” (ibid., 2).
Peter of Alexandria
They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs (The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria [A.D. 305]).
Methodius
Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . Wherefore, we pray you, the most excellent among women, who boast in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate your memory, which will ever live, and never fade away (Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness (Catechetical Lectures 10:19 [A.D. 350]).
Ephraim the Syrian
Though still a virgin she carried a child in her womb, and the handmaid and work of his wisdom became the Mother of God (Songs of Praise 1:20 [A.D. 351]).
Athanasius
The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally, is he that is born in time here below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God (The Incarnation of the Word of God 8 [A.D. 365]).
Epiphanius of Salamis
Being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate among us, not in appearance but in truth, he [the Son] reshaped man to perfection in himself from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).
Ambrose of Milan
The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? (The Virgins 2:2[7] [A.D. 377]).
Gregory of Nazianz
If anyone does not agree that holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead (Letter to Cledonius the Priest 101 [A.D. 382]).
Jerome
As to how a virgin became the Mother of God, he [Rufinus] has full knowledge; as to how he himself was born, he knows nothing (Against Rufinus 2:10 [A.D. 401]).
Theodore of Mopsuestia
“When, therefore, they ask, ‘Is Mary mother of man or Mother of God?’ we answer, ‘Both!’ The one by the very nature of what was done and the other by relation” (The Incarnation 15 [A.D. 405]).
Cyril of Alexandria
I have been amazed that some are utterly in doubt as to whether or not the holy Virgin is able to be called the Mother of God. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how should the holy Virgin who bore him not be the Mother of God? (Letter to the Monks of Egypt 1 [A.D. 427]).
John Cassian
You cannot then help admitting that the grace comes from God. It is God, then, who has given it. But it has been given by our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore the Lord Jesus Christ is God. But if he is God, as he certainly is, then she who bore God is the Mother of God (On the Incarnation of Christ Against Nestorius 2:2 [A.D. 429]).
Council of Ephesus
We confess, then, our Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and a body, begotten before all ages from the Father in his Godhead, the same in the last days, for us and for our salvation, born of Mary the Virgin according to his humanity, one and the same consubstantial with the Father in Godhead and consubstantial with us in humanity, for a union of two natures took place. Therefore we confess one Christ, one Son, one Lord. According to this understanding of the unconfused union, we confess the holy Virgin to be the Mother of God because God the Word took flesh and became man and from his very conception united to himself the temple he took from her (Formula of Union [A.D. 431]).
Vincent of Lerins
Nestorius, whose disease is of an opposite kind, while pretending that he holds two distinct substances in Christ, brings in of a sudden two persons, and with unheard-of wickedness would have two sons of God, two Christs,—one, God, the other, man; one, begotten of his Father, the other, born of his mother. For which reason he maintains that Saint Mary ought to be called, not the Mother of God, but the Mother of Christ (The Notebooks 12[35] [A.D. 434]).
Irenaeus
The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).
Hippolytus
[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth, and the manner of his life and conversation with men, and his manifestation by baptism, and the new birth that was to be to all men, and the regeneration by the laver [of baptism] (Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).
Gregory the Wonderworker
For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary, the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David (Four Homilies 1 [A.D. 262]).
It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the feast of] the Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, “Hail, full of grace!” (ibid., 2).
Peter of Alexandria
They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs (The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria [A.D. 305]).
Methodius
Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . Wherefore, we pray you, the most excellent among women, who boast in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate your memory, which will ever live, and never fade away (Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness (Catechetical Lectures 10:19 [A.D. 350]).
Ephraim the Syrian
Though still a virgin she carried a child in her womb, and the handmaid and work of his wisdom became the Mother of God (Songs of Praise 1:20 [A.D. 351]).
Athanasius
The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally, is he that is born in time here below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God (The Incarnation of the Word of God 8 [A.D. 365]).
Epiphanius of Salamis
Being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate among us, not in appearance but in truth, he [the Son] reshaped man to perfection in himself from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).
Ambrose of Milan
The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? (The Virgins 2:2[7] [A.D. 377]).
Gregory of Nazianz
If anyone does not agree that holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead (Letter to Cledonius the Priest 101 [A.D. 382]).
Jerome
As to how a virgin became the Mother of God, he [Rufinus] has full knowledge; as to how he himself was born, he knows nothing (Against Rufinus 2:10 [A.D. 401]).
Theodore of Mopsuestia
“When, therefore, they ask, ‘Is Mary mother of man or Mother of God?’ we answer, ‘Both!’ The one by the very nature of what was done and the other by relation” (The Incarnation 15 [A.D. 405]).
Cyril of Alexandria
I have been amazed that some are utterly in doubt as to whether or not the holy Virgin is able to be called the Mother of God. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how should the holy Virgin who bore him not be the Mother of God? (Letter to the Monks of Egypt 1 [A.D. 427]).
John Cassian
You cannot then help admitting that the grace comes from God. It is God, then, who has given it. But it has been given by our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore the Lord Jesus Christ is God. But if he is God, as he certainly is, then she who bore God is the Mother of God (On the Incarnation of Christ Against Nestorius 2:2 [A.D. 429]).
Council of Ephesus
We confess, then, our Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and a body, begotten before all ages from the Father in his Godhead, the same in the last days, for us and for our salvation, born of Mary the Virgin according to his humanity, one and the same consubstantial with the Father in Godhead and consubstantial with us in humanity, for a union of two natures took place. Therefore we confess one Christ, one Son, one Lord. According to this understanding of the unconfused union, we confess the holy Virgin to be the Mother of God because God the Word took flesh and became man and from his very conception united to himself the temple he took from her (Formula of Union [A.D. 431]).
Vincent of Lerins
Nestorius, whose disease is of an opposite kind, while pretending that he holds two distinct substances in Christ, brings in of a sudden two persons, and with unheard-of wickedness would have two sons of God, two Christs,—one, God, the other, man; one, begotten of his Father, the other, born of his mother. For which reason he maintains that Saint Mary ought to be called, not the Mother of God, but the Mother of Christ (The Notebooks 12[35] [A.D. 434]).
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Faith didn’t exist before Jesus Christ? What did God of the Old Testament establish? Christ bought a few specifics to man, and it wasn’t Faith though He confirmed the Faith of His father and elaboborated on it effectively and added to it with the Beatitudes etc. Jesus Christ bought the face of God to man first and foremost, no-one had ever seen the face of God till Christ. He established His ministry which wasn’t subjected to ethnic or racial lines. He abolished blood sacrifice through the his own body and blood. He bought Baptism to the table by His affirmation of John the Baptist. And most immortantly He freed man of His mortality on the Cross with His “Human Nature”
Whats safe to say is that Christ re-established His Fathers Faith according to will of God in the direction He desired it to proceed. But to say Christ started faith would in fact deny God the Father, is in fact God the Father. And it would imply that the Trinity existed throughout time without the Human Nature which Jesus Christ brought to the table in His Human conception by the Mother of Lord…the Blessed Virgin Mary…Which again relates to the OP.
So anyway…
In essense we are still left with the dilemma. If Mary did not bring the Human Nature to the table with Christ {which she did BTW} Then why would God even have bother with the plan of Jesus Christ through Mary. In other words if in fact Jesus Christ is only Divine and simply passed through Mary as a channel of vessel or whatever heretical discription one may chose. What was the puspose? Was He not the Trinity before Jesus? So who was in fact Jesus, and what was His purpose if one actually believes there is no Human Nature and Trinity throughout? Why would a deity so supreme as God in the Trinity have to pass through a Human being? I propose that there just may have been something desired to be accomplished which would have included a Human Nature. And Marys Humanity was Gods choice. God had to chose ONE HUMAN of all mankind. And He chose Mary.
I don’t think its wrong in what your saying above, but yet I do think your viewing Christ as God only in that statement. Which isn’t true, nor could it be true. Christ suffered on that Cross till Mans’ sin died in Christs humanity, God could not absorb Mans Sin. Which is exactly why Christ said, “father why do you foresake me”. He would not help Him till that Sin was conquered.
Christs carried the Human Nature with it at the Resurrection, which btw no-one believed would actually happen for that 3-days window but Mary, of course the Divine Nature was complete with the Human. No other way it could possible have been.
Matter of Fact if we study history and what the Bible “is” saying. The Bible in NT escalates Christ Divinity and downplays His humanity for one simple reason. In that period no-one would accept the fact Jesus Christ was indeed the Messiah. Thats exactly the drum is not continuously beat about Christ being Human. Though it is apparent theapostles also felt the need to clarify that point.
Apostle Paul states in Phil. 2:6-7 Who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be “equal” to God. But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant being made in the likeness of man, and in the habit found in man.
Or John as stated, The Word was made Flesh and dwelt among us.
The Question “WHY WAS THE WORD MADE FLESH” “WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE IF NOT TO ASSUME A HUMAN NATURE?”
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Correct, now to expand on this briefly. Take a GOOD look at the dates. Now the FIRST time in HISTORY, the FIRST time in HISTORY in which Theotokos can be dated in a historical document which “actually exists” is from …
319 Alexander Bishop of Alexandria who was predecessor to Athananius, referred to Mary as Theotokos in his encyclical about the “Heresy of Arius”. No other document exist with the Word Theotokos which predates this one. Thats Historical Fact!
So to conclude Mary was and always will be the Mother of the Lord/God, Who beyond a shadow of a doubt was both fully Human and Divine and conceived of the Virgin Mary in natural pregnancy and Child Birth, through the power of ther Holy Spirit. And then Mary named Him Jesus, just as the Bible states.
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Cinette
Guest
*Excellent idea!**66 posts pruned from this thread.
The author of the OP has kindly asked a return to the topic.
I highly suggest the same. **
Please will Protestants answer this question. We all know what the Catholic answer is.
Please someone!
Cinette
*
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elvisman
Guest
, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him"
It was necessary for the Son of God to learn obedience to His Father through suffering, so it also necessary for us to learn obedience to our Lord Jesus through suffering.
**" Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evil doers." **
So as to the charge of blasphemy, take that up with the writer of Hebrews.
The truth for some is irrelevant, being right all the time is more important. Kurios, or Adoni, does not mean God all the time, as numerous examples in the scriptures will show. Enough said, further replys are redundant.
What you said IS blasphemous because you completely misunderstand the passage in Hebrews.
It is NOT saying that being made perfect was a process for Jesus. It is talking about how he WAS perfect already. You fail to grasp that Jesus had TWO natures - human and divine. His human nature learned obedience and humility just like we do. His divine nature, however was ALREADY perfect.
John 1:1 tells us that In the beginning was the Word (Jesus) and the Word (Jesus) was with God and the Word (Jesus) WAS GOD.
The universe was created by him. For you to say that he was not perfect until he suffered and died is BLASPHEMY. There was no perfect SACRIFICE except for his, but he was ALWAYS perfect before the creation of the universe.
**As for Kurious and Adoni - I have proven you wrong because Elizabeth wasn’**t speaking Greek or Hebrew. She spoke ARAMAIC and the word she used is "MarYah”, which is the Aramaic for “LORD JHVH” (Yaweh - GOD). The Holy Spirit inspired her to call the child in Mary’s womb, “God”.
Your argument is not even supported by most Protestant theologians.
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Dokimas
Guest
Jesus always was. There was never a time Jesus was not.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Thats right, so, What DOES “MARY” bring to the Bible?
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Dokimas
Guest
I really don’t understand the question so I can’t answer. Could you rephrase?
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JustaServant
Guest
Correct.
The problem Protestants have is they so misunderstand oral tradition which predates the printing press, they assume that Alexander introduced it because that’s the first time its in writing.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
The Trinity always existed from the beginning, during the Bible and after, What was the purpose of Mary in the Bible? Mary certainly “didn’t” need to bring the Trinity to the world , it already existed. So what was Gods plan and purpose of Mary in the Holy Scripture? God, Son of God and the Holy Spirit existed, so Mary brought exactly what from your perspective?
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Dokimas
Guest
Mary was the instrument (vessel) God used to enter humanity and fulfilll many Scriptures including:
Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.
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zarthan
Guest
It is obvious that we have a different understanding of why Jesus Christ, the Son of God came to this earth. He needed to speak every word that He heard from his Father and he needed to do everything his Father showed him. He needed to be tempted in every way as we, yet without sin. He needed to take the death of our sins upon himself. “I came down from heaven not to do my will, but the will of Him who sent me”.
He learned obedience to his Father in his being tempted in every way as us, yet without sin. He learned obedience by taking up his cross and by suffering crucifixion and sheol for our sins. Thereby, he became perfect in order to be made Lord and Christ in his victorious resurrection over death. If Jesus Christ, the Son of God had not been perfectly obedient to his Father’s will on earth, he would not have obtained for us eternal salvation for all who obey him. I do not see how this is blasphemous, it is glorious and wonderful what our Saviour has done for us. Thanks be to God!
As far as what language Elizabeth spoke, no one knows whether she spoke Aramaic or Hebrew. There are several instances where Hebrew is known to have been spoken in the N.T. Elizabeth being of Aaronic lineage would have been more likely to have spoken in Hebrew. (Luke 23:38, John 5;2, 19:3, 19:17, 20: Acts 21:40, 22:2, 26:14; Rev. 9:11; 16:6)
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Cinette
Guest
“If you do not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, then who do you believe Jesus Christ is?”
*
*This is the question the OP asked when he started this thread and this is the question some of us are wanting to hear. It has been asked by more than one Poster and yet we never get an answer.
If certain Posters continue to have side-tracked conversations then we will never get an answer. So what is the point in participating in a thread if people ignore the subject?
I repeat: we know the Catholic answer and we are looking for the Protestant answer. I, for one, am very interested.
*
*
*This is the question the OP asked when he started this thread and this is the question some of us are wanting to hear. It has been asked by more than one Poster and yet we never get an answer.
If certain Posters continue to have side-tracked conversations then we will never get an answer. So what is the point in participating in a thread if people ignore the subject?
I repeat: we know the Catholic answer and we are looking for the Protestant answer. I, for one, am very interested.
*
Z
zarthan
Guest
Why would we want to grieve Jesus Christ our Lord, and our Heavenly Father, and the Holy Spirit by arguing over the terminology in which we describe the Virgin Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ? I am guilty as anyone in my ardor for the truth of the scriptures.
All of us do not have a devotion to the blessed Virgin Mary, so does that make us less in the eyes of God? If we are missing the mark in this way, please pray for us. I accept anyone who has a devotion to the Virgin Mary as long as they show love towards those who do not. God gives us different graces and gifts of calling, and we are not alike in our gifting. To my shame, we often fail, and this is not pleasing to God in the least. Let us hold to the convictions that God has given us, but let us also love one another in the love of our Lord Jesus Christ, who suffered so much for us in order that we might be reconciled to God and to one another. Surely it grieves the Son of God as much as it does his Mother to see us arguing this way.
In His great mercy, may God forgive us.
All of us do not have a devotion to the blessed Virgin Mary, so does that make us less in the eyes of God? If we are missing the mark in this way, please pray for us. I accept anyone who has a devotion to the Virgin Mary as long as they show love towards those who do not. God gives us different graces and gifts of calling, and we are not alike in our gifting. To my shame, we often fail, and this is not pleasing to God in the least. Let us hold to the convictions that God has given us, but let us also love one another in the love of our Lord Jesus Christ, who suffered so much for us in order that we might be reconciled to God and to one another. Surely it grieves the Son of God as much as it does his Mother to see us arguing this way.
In His great mercy, may God forgive us.
B
benedictus2
Guest
Why? Why did He need to be tempted?
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benedictus2
Guest
Many posts ago you said that Jesus is God. If this is so , you are saying therefore that God is not perfect? Or is it only the Second Person of the Trinity that is not perfect but the other Two are?
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Cinette
Guest
*The purpose of discourse on these threads is to gain a better understanding. I have learned a lot from the other members of CAF both Catholic and non-Catholic.
In this case the OP has asked a very interesting question and I am one of those interested in understanding how our (separated) brothers and sisters in Christ interpret the scriptures.
Cinette*
In this case the OP has asked a very interesting question and I am one of those interested in understanding how our (separated) brothers and sisters in Christ interpret the scriptures.
Cinette
*- Status