If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?

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Dokimas said:
BTW, has anyone looked at how many people the NT records that called Jesus Lord? If you believe Elizabeth equated Lord with God, do you also believe the others knew Jesus was God?
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Yes. John 20:28. Thomas said to Jesus my Lord and my God!!😃
 
Doki asked whether they knew whether Jesus was God, when they as per scripture already quoted, referred to Him as Lord - Jewish History, Scripture and tradition tells us that Israel expected Immanuel (God is with us), to come from the branch of David.

In fact He was expected to come ‘soon’ (just as we are expecting Him to come ‘soon’) from the time of Noah to the time of His birth. When Elizabeth uttered the words “
 my Lord” she spoke under the influence of the HOLY GHOST and could therefore not have spoken of anybody else but Immanuel. (compare Ananias and his wife who lied against the Holy Spirit and their demise)

Yes, they knew that He, when He dwelt amongst them, was the promised Immanuel. The name of Jesus is the proper name of our Lord, given to Him by the messenger of God, the angel Gabriel when he told Mary that she would conceive by the power of the Holy Spirit and give birth to a son. And that of Christ is added to identify Him with the Messiah.
 
elvisman said:
As I’ve already shown you and Zarthan - and which you’ve* both* dismissed because you had no good response - is the the following:

Regarding the Greek words, “Kurious” and “Adoni” - I have proven you wrong because Elizabeth wasn’t speaking Greek or Hebrew. She spoke ARAMAIC and the word she used is "MarYah”, which is the Aramaic for “LORD JHVH” (Yaweh - GOD). The Holy Spirit inspired her to call the child in Mary’s womb, “God”.

Your argument is not even supported by most Protestant theologians.

Game over, Doki . . .
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So when the Bible uses the term “Lord God” it means God God?

Oh yes, didn’t someone challenge you on how you know Elizabeth spoke Aramaic?
 
shaky said:
Yes. John 20:28. Thomas said to Jesus my Lord and my God!!😃
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I agree, Thomas most likely was beginning to understand Jesus is God. I’m not sure many who called Him Lord in the Gospels understood that fact. If was a term used, not only for God, but for other leaders/rulers.
 
Dokimas said:
I agree, Thomas most likely was beginning to understand Jesus is God. I’m not sure many who called Him Lord in the Gospels understood that fact. If was a term used, not only for God, but for other leaders/rulers.
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Was there any other leader or ruler who rose from the dead?
 
PRmerger said:
Was there any other leader or ruler who rose from the dead?
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Come on, PR, we aren’t speaking about people after the resurrection. We’re talking about Elizabeth and all those mentioned (except Thomas) mentioned above who called Jesus Lord before the resurrection.

The reason we are talking about this is because someone tried to prove Mary is the mother of God becasue Elizabeth called Jesus Lord while in Mary’s womb.
 
Dokimas said:
Come on, PR, we aren’t speaking about people after the resurrection. We’re talking about Elizabeth and all those mentioned (except Thomas) mentioned above who called Jesus Lord before the resurrection.
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Um, Doki? You were talking about Thomas. Right here:
Dokimas said:
I agree, Thomas most likely was beginning to understand Jesus is God. I’m not sure many who called Him Lord in the Gospels understood that fact. If was a term used, not only for God, but for other leaders/rulers.
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You think that Thomas called Jesus “Lord” but still only had a rudimentary understanding that this guy who just rose from the dead was God?

Can’t you just say, “Yes, Jesus was called Lord, and He was God and Thomas knew it when he said, 'My Lord and my God!” after seeing Him crucified and then resurrected. There is no other explanation as to why Thomas would call Jesus 'Lord!"

You certainly will go through all sorts of convoluted expositories–no matter how illogical–just to deny Catholic truths. <sigh!>
 
Dokimas said:
The reason we are talking about this is because someone tried to prove Mary is the mother of God becasue Elizabeth called Jesus Lord while in Mary’s womb.
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Right. And we’ve given about 6-8 examples of others in the NT who called Jesus Lord and knew He was God.
 
Dokimas said:
Come on, PR, we aren’t speaking about people after the resurrection. We’re talking about Elizabeth and all those mentioned (except Thomas) mentioned above who called Jesus Lord before the resurrection.

The reason we are talking about this is because someone tried to prove Mary is the mother of God becasue Elizabeth called Jesus Lord while in Mary’s womb.
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You have been evading answering this but what do you think Elizabeth meant when she said Mother of my Lord? To whom was she referring by the term Lord?
 
Dokimas said:
So when the Bible uses the term “Lord God” it means God God?

Oh yes, didn’t someone challenge you on how you know Elizabeth spoke Aramaic?
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**Most linguistic scholars agree that the language spoken by simple folk in that part of Israel in the first century spoke Aramaic primarily. **

The Biblical evidence for Jesus speaking Aramaic is overwhelming - as I have presented on several posts. Even on the cross he spoke Aramaic. The term Golgotha is an Aramaic term.

The idea that Elizabeth spoke a different language to an Aramaic-speaking Mary is preposterous, to say the least.

As for your comment about Lord God meaning God God - you’re being silly.
First of all - Elizabeth didn’t say, “Lord God”. That is who we are dealing with here. She said, "And who am I that the mother of MY Lord (MarYah=GOD) should visit me?"**

If she was speaking Greek to Mary - you might have a point, but not necessarily. The Greek word for “Lord” (Kurious) isn’t limited to only one meaning:**

1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord 1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing 1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master 1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor 1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master 1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah Synonym
I suggest you do some further linguistic homework before jumping on an anti-Jesus bandwagon with Zarthan and others, whose sole purpose, it seems is to play devil’s advocate on this forum . . .
 
As we know, Zacharias was approached by an angel while busy with his temple duty burning incense. He was struck dumb due to his unbelief and when he finally appeared in public, everybody present knew something significant had happened to him that day. When the days of his service was over Zaccharias returned home. Elizabeth soon thereafter became pregnant . Zacharias communicated with others in writing and so, Elizabeth, now beyond childbearing years, knew the purpose and significance of the vision and her pregnancy. She knew that her unborn child is the one spoken of in the Psalms and the prophets – the forerunner of the expected Messiah born of a virgin; She expected this promise to be fulfilled during her elderly lifetime and when she greeted Mary, she exclaimed in a loud voice, by the prompting of the Holy Spirit, blessed are you amongst all women and blessed is the child


[SIGN]And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him. *But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
Luke 1:12-17 (KJV)[/SIGN]
 
Mother of the Lord isn’t anything but correct. IMO the most significant statement Mary made in Luke was 1:38. “Let it be done to me as you say” . Then the angel left. “Because he then had Marys “Free-Will” consent to be the Mother of Christ according to Gods will.”

That statement Luke 1:38 set in course a chain of events that changed the History of Mankind. That statement was the consent of the covenant between Mary and God that allowed Christ to be born of Mary in total agreement with Gods will. That statement allowed Mary, by Gods will, to be the “Mother of the Lord.” Thus the Son of God to then became two natures through Marys consent and by Mary. 1+1=2 not 1. So the divine nature didn’t remain as it was prior. Had that been the intention, then what in the world would be the purpose of Mary?

Elizabeths statement in Luke “Mother of the Lord” then only “CONFIRMS” the story we already see unfolding at the Annunciation. What other reason would Luke have to place it in the story-line? He didn’t write so the faithful could be mislead, he wrote so they could quickly grasp the story without turning one event into the story. Thus connecting one scene to the next in a brief, comprehensive yet accurate manner. In fact the Visitation is the “next” scene in the story.

Fact is that the “interaction of verse” is “totally” missed here and can’t be understated. And when you get right down to it. That is the problem in the nutshell with “Sola-Scriptura”.

Next from Luke 1:38
 “Marys runs out in the countryside proceeding in Haste.” “WHY”? Well lets interpret this "Sola Scripture? Maybe Mary stubbed Her toe? Thats why she runs out in the countryside. And there we have the problem of “Sola Scriptura” and this thread.

To read the pre and post verse we then could make an accurate assumption why Mary ran out in the countryside. She was going to be the Mother of the Lord and just had an amazing experience through the apparition of the angel Gabriel. Stunned is probly what She was, and estatic that of all on earth God sends a personal message, relays His thoughts to Mary and presents Her with His Will. And it was Marys FREE WILL to make that choice. And the choice was “Mother of the Lord” And Luke 1:38 gives us Marys answer to Mother of the Lord. God proposed to Mary, not the other way around. He chose Mary, Proposed to Mary and the rest became the History of a marvelous chain of events, that started with Marys free-will consent to be the Mother of Gods Son made man"FLESH". Remember “The Word became Flesh”.
 
2962 ÎșυρÎčÎżÏ‚ kurios koo’-ree-os

from kuros (supremacy); TDNT-3:1039,486; n m

AV-Lord 667, lord 54, master 11, sir 6, Sir 6, misc 4; 748
  1. he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
    1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
    1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
    1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
    1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
    1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah
For Synonyms see entry 5830

You and I know Jesus is God, but did many understand it before the resurrection. I don’t know for sure but I doubt it. I doubt they understood the incarnation.
 
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