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PRmerger
Guest
Yet when the Holy Spirit inspires someone to say that Jesus is Lord, what else could it mean but that Jesus is God?
If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?
- Status
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PRmerger
Guest
In my opinion, it is really irrrelevant whether Elizabeth knew conceptually that she was declaring Jesus to be God or not. She said it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit, and clearly, no Christian ought to be thinking that the HS would declare anything other than Jesus is God.
Oh, yes, indeed. There’s a lot of Scriptural acrobatics going on, as well as theological gyrations. All in order to deny that the CC, when it says that Mary is the Mother of God is simply proclaiming that Jesus is God.
In the end, what they must conclude is that there was a man named Jesus who walked around ancient Palestine who was a lord, who was a human, but who was NOT God.
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PRmerger
Guest
You must mean “suspended”. That’s a temporary banning. Being “banned” means you are allowed to post on the CAFS: never.
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rev_kevin
Guest
But the question is did Elizabeth know that Jesus is also God?
Just because the HS inspires someone to say “My Lord” don’t mean she knew that Jesus was God. She knew he was going to be someone special, the Messiah and that he was the Son of God but God himself, I doubt it.
Now as you know the word Messiah is a term used in Judaism which means anointed. Messiah is used in the Hebrew Bible to describe Priests or Kings who were traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil.
Example: Cyrus the Great, the King of Persia, although not a Hebrew. is referred to as God anointed (messiah). Now later in Jewish messianic tradition and eschatology, messiah refers to a leader anointed by God.
The translation of the Hebrew word masiah as khristos in Greek Seotuagint became the accepted Christian designation and title of Jesus of Nazareth.
So to say Elizabeth knew Mary was carrying God is pretty doubtful.
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PRmerger
Guest
So what? When the Holy Spirit inspires you to say something it is the Word of God, no?
Mary was the Mother of HER LORD. Period.
Scripture states that Elizabeth called Mary the Mother of God.
[SIGN]The Scriptures have her proclaiming that Mary is the Mother of God. [/SIGN]
Whether she knew it or not is irrelevant.
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rev_kevin
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If its irrelevant then why all the, yes she did, arguement on your side?
Seems to me its pretty relevant to you.
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PRmerger
Guest
I really don’t know.
As far as the Scriptures, they proclaim that Elizabeth declared Mary to be the Mother of God!
Nothing more needs to be said.
She said this under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, so there is no doubt that “Lord” here means “Jesus is God.”
Are we agreed on this?
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rev_kevin
Guest
Yes we can agree that the word Lord means God, but you know how I feel after that.
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PRmerger
Guest
Now you’re being a bit coy.
Are we agreed that the Scriptures say that Mary is the Mother of God?
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rev_kevin
Guest
Yes
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Reuben_J
Guest
She might know. If she did not, the Holy Spirit spoke in and through her to proclaim the truth that we believe today.
The importance of the word Messiah is not what it is but what it entails to the believers who believe in the coming of the Messiah. The Jews knew what the Messiah would do to their nation. The Christians believe that the Messiah is not just a man and that his kingdom is not on this earth.
That’s how we should understand what Elizabeth was doing. Revelation came from her exclamation by the Holy Spirit.
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rev_kevin
Guest
You are correct on your first part here.
Now when Mary was pregnant with Jesus, there was no so called Christians and Mary was of the Jewish faith. Now most of the people who followed Christ thought he was some political leader, even some of his disciples thought that as well. Some not all the Christians also believed that Jesus was just a man, they believed he was a leader and his kingdom was here in earth not in heaven. Now today we believe that the Messiah is not just a man but God and that his kingdom is not here on earth but in heaven.
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PRmerger
Guest
:tiphat:
You are way ahead of the average Joe-Catholic-in-the-pew who has not a whit of idea why Catholics call Mary the Mother of God.
I suspect that part of the reason you are here is that God has a plan for you to witness to these lumpy-pew fillers.
Oh, how I wish I could hear you say to one of these Catholics, “Oh, yes, sir, your church does indeed teach that. You should be ashamed that I, a non-Catholic, know your faith better than you.”
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Reuben_J
Guest
Much of the revelation in the Gospels took a progressive trend that culminated in the belief that we have today. It is until nearly the last chapters that we (or the disciples) know that Jesus would be crucified and resurrected.
This progressive trend either was revealed or taught by Jesus himself or spoken by the Holy Spirit through the characters in the Gospel. For example, it was the Father in heaven that spoke through Peter that Jesus is the Son of the living God (Mt 16). Sometimes the Evil One would speak through them but always when that happened Jesus would decisively clarified it as in Mt 16:23 when Jesus rebuked Peter for saying that he must not go to Jerusalem to die.
Thus you could sense Jesus or the Holy Spirit’s leading the Jews towards this new revelation of what the Messiah is from the coventional concept of how the Jews understood it. That’s what happening to us Christians as we go through the Bible – all that happened there leads to the doctrine of Christianity so that we too can say, ‘wasn’t it like a fire burning in us as we go through the Scripture …’.
Thus especially when the saying is attributed to the Holy Spirit or Jesus, then that must be the truth in the Bible. **In Lk 1:43, Elizabeth was pointedly mentioned being filled with the Holy Spirit **perhaps lest we miss the significant of her exclamation of who Mary was. That she is the mother of God and that she is the most blessed among woman shouldn’t escape us.
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shaky
Guest
It is believed by some that Jesus returned in 70AD:shrug:
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Cinette
Guest
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Cinette
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Reuben_J
Guest
Today we have the benefit of having the Bible in whole. We know the conclusion of what is not known by the speakers of the words that were inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is not the wrong understanding or the ignorance of the words uttered by the person that was inspired by the Holy Spirit but what the Holy Spirit wanted to convey that matters – because that’s the proclamation of the truth regardless of the knowledge of the person uttering the words.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, not the person’s opinion and erroneous perception.
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Cinette
Guest
*You say you were never Catholic and yet you can disagree with Catholics about what we state the CC teaches!
We quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church which is an explanation of what we believe. Don’t you think that you are being pretentious by disagreeing as it is not a matter of opinion but a matter of FACT.
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rev_kevin
Guest
:tiphat:
You are way ahead of the average Joe-Catholic-in-the-pew who has not a whit of idea why Catholics call Mary the Mother of God.
I suspect that part of the reason you are here is that God has a plan for you to witness to these lumpy-pew fillers.
Oh, how I wish I could hear you say to one of these Catholics, “Oh, yes, sir, your church does indeed teach that. You should be ashamed that I, a non-Catholic, know your faith better than you.”
Maybe one day when the time is right my friend i’ll say that.- Status