If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?

[BlueShadow123]

There already are. The interesting day has long arrived.

There are many questions people have (not just in this thread) that have not been answered by any logical means. So no, the day has not come. It will come when you’re dead. That is when the knowledge you need is fed to you. I figured somebody would pick up on that by my post.

 

[Rocket_Man]

What else do you bury but a dead body

Do you think God was still in that dead body?

Do you not believe that the soul separates from the body at death?

The Catechism of the Council of Trent

When we confess that He was buried, we do not make this, as it were, a distinct part of the Article, as if it presented any new difficulty which is not implied in what we have said of His death; for if we believe that Christ died, we can also easily believe that He was buried. The word buried was added in the Creed, first, that His death might be rendered more certain, for the strongest argument of a person’s death is the proof that his body was buried; and, secondly, to render the miracle of His Resurrection more authentic and illustrious. It is not, however, our belief that the body of Christ alone was interred. The above words propose, as the principal object of our belief, that God was buried; as according to the rule of Catholic faith we also say with the strictest truth that God died, and that God was born of a virgin. For as the Divinity was never separated from His body which was laid in the sepulchre, we truly confess that God was buried.

 

[benidict]

The Catechism of the Council of Trent

When we confess that He was buried, we do not make this, as it were, a distinct part of the Article, as if it presented any new difficulty which is not implied in what we have said of His death; for if we believe that Christ died, we can also easily believe that He was buried. The word buried was added in the Creed, first, that His death might be rendered more certain, for the strongest argument of a person’s death is the proof that his body was buried; and, secondly, to render the miracle of His Resurrection more authentic and illustrious. It is not, however, our belief that the body of Christ alone was interred. The above words propose, as the principal object of our belief, that God was buried; as according to the rule of Catholic faith we also say with the strictest truth that God died, and that God was born of a virgin. For as the Divinity was never separated from His body which was laid in the sepulchre, we truly confess that God was buried.

it is written that Jesus tasted death for all of us. he truly died. i see what your getting at, but he was like us in every way. this meant he had to leave his body behind, just like we have to. remember what the apostle Paul said. we have a earthly tabernacle,(the physical body) we have a heavenly tabernacle.the body prepared for us so we can enjoy our time in between death and the ressurection with our Lord. remember how he stated, he wished to shed this earthly tabernacle, and be clothed from above? he had to shed His body, to be like every one of us. just like He had to take on flesh from Mary, to be as one of us. is this really so hard to see? He was like us in every way, except sin. this is what happens when not just protestants, but anyone, starts questioning the teachings of the Church on Mary. they run the risk of denying the Trinity. its a very precarious place to be my friend. i used to be where you are at. but even then, this was not such an issue. the closer we get to the Return of Christ, the stronger, objection to true doctrine will get. something to think about my friend. Peace and prayers for you. p.s. hopes this helps clarify the issue. do you believe in soul sleep my friend?

 

[benidict]

There are many questions people have (not just in this thread) that have not been answered by any logical means. So no, the day has not come. It will come when you’re dead. That is when the knowledge you need is fed to you. I figured somebody would pick up on that by my post.

i believe that my dear sister Benedictus, was talking about the Church my friend. she can correct me if she had something else in mind. you do not have to wait until you are dead. nor would you want to. believe me. have you ever had the pleasure of having a conversation with a Godly priest. i have. when i was more volunteer work before i joined the army, i got to know alot of them. they are truly men, touched by God. they truly are Blessed. they have the authority of Christ. and trust me, you will know, when Christ is talking through someone. i would respectfully have to disagree with you. Peace

 

[Irish_Polock]

The Catechism of the Council of Trent

When we confess that He was buried, we do not make this, as it were, a distinct part of the Article, as if it presented any new difficulty which is not implied in what we have said of His death; for if we believe that Christ died, we can also easily believe that He was buried. The word buried was added in the Creed, first, that His death might be rendered more certain, for the strongest argument of a person’s death is the proof that his body was buried; and, secondly, to render the miracle of His Resurrection more authentic and illustrious. It is not, however, our belief that the body of Christ alone was interred. The above words propose, as the principal object of our belief, that God was buried; as according to the rule of Catholic faith we also say with the strictest truth that God died, and that God was born of a virgin. For as the Divinity was never separated from His body which was laid in the sepulchre, we truly confess that God was buried.

Did you read the Catechism of Trent? It is a wonderful and read. This is what I remember from it about the death of Christ.

Moreover as Christ was true and perfect man, He of course was capable of dying. Now man dies when the soul is separated from the body. When, therefore, we say that Jesus died, we mean that His soul was disunited from His body. We do not admit, however, that the Divinity was separated from His body. On the contrary, we firmly believe and profess that when His soul was dissociated from His body, His Divinity continued always united both to His body in the sepulchre and to His soul in limbo. It became the Son of God to die, that, through death, he might destroy him who had the empire of death that is the devil, and might deliver them, who through the fear of death were all their lifetime subject to servitude. (The Catechism of Trent 1040)

 

[BlueShadow123]

i believe that my dear sister Benedictus, was talking about the Church my friend. she can correct me if she had something else in mind. you do not have to wait until you are dead. nor would you want to. believe me. have you ever had the pleasure of having a conversation with a Godly priest. i have. when i was more volunteer work before i joined the army, i got to know alot of them. they are truly men, touched by God. they truly are Blessed. they have the authority of Christ. and trust me, you will know, when Christ is talking through someone. i would respectfully have to disagree with you. Peace

Then give me all the answers to science that have not been discovered yet.

Who said I was just talking about God?

 

[jlhargus]

Please clarify the statement " God experienced death as a human being" in the context of one hypostasis.

JL: God became man and that God man died on the cross.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Did you read the Catechism of Trent? It is a wonderful and read. This is what I remember from it about the death of Christ.

Moreover as Christ was true and perfect man, He of course was capable of dying. Now man dies when the soul is separated from the body. When, therefore, we say that Jesus died, we mean that His soul was disunited from His body. We do not admit, however, that the Divinity was separated from His body. On the contrary, we firmly believe and profess that when His soul was dissociated from His body, His Divinity continued always united both to His body in the sepulchre and to His soul in limbo. It became the Son of God to die, that, through death, he might destroy him who had the empire of death that is the devil, and might deliver them, who through the fear of death were all their lifetime subject to servitude. (The Catechism of Trent 1040)

What does it mean that His divinity was never separated from His body. How can a body that is dead and without soul have divinity?

 

[Roy5]

If people can believe that Mary should be called the Mother of God, fine, Those who accept the authority of the church on this and other such matters will have little problem. For some of us, it’s more complicated than that.

** To me, it is misleading.** We all know that God existed eons before Mary, eternally in fact. Mary was the mother of Jesus, the man Jesus. His divinity was not born in the womb like a body is born in a womb. In fact, the divine nature of Christ was a given, not something that developed for the nine months preceding birth. To even hint that somehow she was the mother of God strikes me as at least a poor choice of words. How can a human being be mother to her creator in any credible fashion?

** It is quite enough to honor Mary as the mother of Jesus.** I mean, what could be a higher honor? So, let’s honor her. But there is something troubling (to my mind anyway) when she is identified as the mother of God, when she is seen as having enormous power in heaven, able to influence her son to respond a certain way to a prayer sent through her. I find many Catholics quite convinced that prayers directed to her or to some other special saint(s) means they are more likely to receive positive responses. Hm!

**And, I ask again, how can a creature be mother to her Creator? **

**The result of this whole thing - again, just my honest opinion, which I hope can be expressed here - is that Mary has assumed goddess-like characteristics among many**. I have one good friend, for example, who only goes to Mother Mary when he has a problem. She (he says) has more compassion, more understanding, is less likely to be angry, etc. All so worldly.

** This seems to me to have developed in another age, when people lived in a world that was much simpler than we know the world to be now.** They didn’t realize that there might be a billion solar systems out there, and quite possibly this tiny speck we call earth may not be the main focus of God’s attention. Read the Church Fathers again. They were brilliant for their time. But how wrong they were on matters celestial, how many superstitions about the world they embraced, all because they had no concept of the vastness of this awesome, immense universe. I don’t condemn them, But we don’t have to defend their errors either.
**God bless everybody - and a happy New Year, too. **

 

[Irish_Polock]

What does it mean that His divinity was never separated from His body. How can a body that is dead and without soul have divinity?

This is no ordinary body, this is the body of God Incarnate, second person of the Holy Trinity. The divinity would no sooner leave Him then, then it would at any other time during the passion of Christ. This is the same body that he ascended into Heaven - by his own will- with.

If you have the Catechism of Trent, I would suggest starting with it. I highly recommended it anyway. Try starting with article one through seven. It would be hard to read that and not have a better understanding of the Catholic faith.

 

[Irish_Polock]

**If people can believe that Mary should be called the Mother of God, fine**, Those who accept the authority of the church on this and other such matters will have little problem. For some of us, it's more complicated than that.

This is only complicated because protestants in the united states have in intrinsic distain for the BVM due to their puritan roots. Outside of the U.S. this is a non-issue for the most part.

** To me, it is misleading.** We all know that God existed eons before Mary, eternally in fact. Mary was the mother of Jesus, the man Jesus. His divinity was not born in the womb like a body is born in a womb. In fact, the divine nature of Christ was a given, not something that developed for the nine months preceding birth. To even hint that somehow she was the mother of God strikes me as at least a poor choice of words. How can a human being be mother to her creator in any credible fashion?

How could the creator be born of a creature that he created? I am certain that at no time in history “Mother of God” has never been used to imply that the BVM was the mother of God the Father. It only states that the BVM is the Mother of God Incarnate. It seems your issue is with the BVM, not the Catholic title given to her.

** It is quite enough to honor Mary as the mother of Jesus.** I mean, what could be a higher honor? So, let’s honor her. But there is something troubling (to my mind anyway) when she is identified as the mother of God, when she is seen as having enormous power in heaven, able to influence her son to respond a certain way to a prayer sent through her. I find many Catholics quite convinced that prayers directed to her or to some other special saint(s) means they are more likely to receive positive responses. Hm!

The wedding at Cana comes to mind:

1 On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; 2 Jesus also was invited to the marriage, with his disciples. 3 When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
6 Now six stone jars were standing there, for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons. 7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the jars with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. 8 He said to them, “Now draw some out, and take it to the steward of the feast.” So they took it. 9 When the steward of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the steward of the feast called the bridegroom (John (RSV) 2)

**And, I ask again, how can a creature be mother to her Creator? **

Again, how can the Creator be borne of a creature? Is Jesus not God? This is fairly simple.

B]The result of this whole thing - again, just my honest opinion, which I hope can be expressed here - is that Mary has assumed goddess-like characteristics among many

. I have one good friend, for example, who only goes to Mother Mary when he has a problem. She (he says) has more compassion, more understanding, is less likely to be angry, etc. All so worldly.

Certainly you are more then welcome to express your opinion here, and while I can not speak for your friend, I can say that the blessed virgin does have a special place in Heaven due to the fact that she IS the Mother of God Incarnate.

** This seems to me to have developed in another age, when people lived in a world that was much simpler than we know the world to be now.** They didn’t realize that there might be a billion solar systems out there, and quite possibly this tiny speck we call earth may not be the main focus of God’s attention. Read the Church Fathers again. They were brilliant for their time. But how wrong they were on matters celestial, how many superstitions about the world they embraced, all because they had no concept of the vastness of this awesome, immense universe. I don’t condemn them, But we don’t have to defend their errors either.

I wouldn’t deny that the title of the BVM developed in another age - although I will argue that it developed out of ignorance. The ECF’s were theologians not astronomers, why would things celestial influence their exegetics‘? This would be an ad hominem abuse.

**God bless everybody - and a happy New Year, too. **

Indeed, Happy New Year!
God be with you

 

[panner]

How could the creator be born of a creature that he created? I am certain that at no time in history “Mother of God” has never been used to imply that the BVM was the mother of God the Father. It only states that the BVM is the Mother of God Incarnate.

Now that I can get behind. However, many Catholics here seem to think that the BVM was Mother of God and until birth He was not God

 

[mountaintop]

I suppose I should attempt to answer this as I am an American Baptist (Southern Baptist Convention). Jesus is God. He says “I and the Father are one.” We would never argue that. Mary, a young Jewish girl, bore Christ. We have no problem with this at all. What we do have a problem with is putting her on a pedestal. She was indeed blessed, but not perfect. She stands as an example that God uses ordinary people to accomplish His extraordinary Purpose. I have no problem with her being called the mother of God, but I do have reservations about her being referred to as “Queen of Heaven.” I understand that you believe Mary was sinless her entire life and I in no way meant to be disrespectful, I only meant to explain my thoughts on the issue. Hope that is okay.
Also the question about Jesus being from the line of David was an excellent one. Thank you to whoever posed that one.

revilations 12 the woman is the virgin mary the male child is jesus.

 

[benedictus2]

Now that I can get behind. However, many Catholics here seem to think that the BVM was Mother of God and until birth He was not God

Only because you don’t know how to read posts.

It is because of your lack of comprehension that you came up with that conclusion.

 

[benedictus2]

I have no problem with her being called the mother of God, but I do have reservations about her being referred to as “Queen of Heaven.”

I think we can understand this reference more if we go back to the OT and see this through Jewish glasses.

The queen is not the king’s wife but the king’s mother.

If we say that Jesus is king and reigns in heaven and on earth, then His mother is the queen of heaven and earth.

 

[benedictus2]

The Catechism of the Council of Trent

When we confess that He was buried, we do not make this, as it were, a distinct part of the Article, as if it presented any new difficulty which is not implied in what we have said of His death; for if we believe that Christ died, we can also easily believe that He was buried. The word buried was added in the Creed, first, that His death might be rendered more certain, for the strongest argument of a person’s death is the proof that his body was buried; and, secondly, to render the miracle of His Resurrection more authentic and illustrious. It is not, however, our belief that the body of Christ alone was interred. The above words propose, as the principal object of our belief, that God was buried; as according to the rule of Catholic faith we also say with the strictest truth that God died, and that God was born of a virgin. For as the Divinity was never separated from His body which was laid in the sepulchre, we truly confess that God was buried.

I stand corrected. I was not aware of this teaching and if this is what the Church teaches then that is what I believe.

I can understand that too since because of the hypostatic union His Divinity would be completely united to His Humanity.

 

[jlhargus]

What does it mean that His divinity was never separated from His body. How can a body that is dead and without soul have divinity?

JL: Because it is the BODY OF GOD, the Word was God, the Word BECAME FLESH. When I die my body will still be the body of a human being.

 

[jlhargus]

If people can believe that Mary should be called the Mother of God, fine, Those who accept the authority of the church on this and other such matters will have little problem. For some of us, it’s more complicated than that.

** To me, it is misleading.** We all know that God existed eons before Mary, eternally in fact. Mary was the mother of Jesus, the man Jesus. His divinity was not born in the womb like a body is born in a womb. In fact, the divine nature of Christ was a given, not something that developed for the nine months preceding birth. To even hint that somehow she was the mother of God strikes me as at least a poor choice of words. How can a human being be mother to her creator in any credible fashion?

JL: The man Jesus WAS GOD, the Wrod was God, THE WORD BECAME FLESH. If Mary gave birth to THAT FLESH OF GOD, she is Mother of God MADE FLESH. Therefore Mother of her creator IN TIME, not eternity.

 

[Rocket_Man]

JL: The man Jesus WAS GOD, the Wrod was God, THE WORD BECAME FLESH. If Mary gave birth to THAT FLESH OF GOD, she is Mother of God MADE FLESH. Therefore Mother of her creator IN TIME, not eternity.

How then can you transpose the “IN Time” earthly Davidic kingship and customs “queen mother” to an eternal kingdom?

 

[Rocket_Man]

JL: Because it is the BODY OF GOD, the Word was God, the Word BECAME FLESH. When I die my body will still be the body of a human being.

Separating these into an understanding is very complex. To say with words that God died and was buried is one thing but to fully understand the union of Divinity and Humanity in the Person of Jesus Christ and His Body that suffered, died, and was buried is another. I hoping to read the Catechism of the Council of Trent to gain a further appreciation.