If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?

[jlhargus]

How then can you transpose the “IN Time” earthly Davidic kingship and customs “queen mother” to an eternal kingdom?

JL: I’m not sure this is what you want if not let me know, I put it to gether sort of fast, I am ready to kick back for the day. Long story short there is only ONE KINGDOM.

Mt19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the REGENERATION when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his gloryAnd I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 THAT YE MAY EAT AND DRINK AT MY TABLE IN MY KINGDOM, AND sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Acts3:21 For HE MUST REMAIN IN HEAVEN UNTIL the time for the FINAL RESTORATION of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.

[Rms11:15 For **if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, WHAT SHALL THE RECEIVING OF THEM BE, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and IF THE ROOT BE HOLY, SO ARE THE BRANCHES. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, AND THOU BEING A WILD OLIVE TREE, WERT GRAFTED IN among them, AND WITH THEM **; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, THOU BEAREST NOT THE ROOT, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF THEY WERE BROKEN OFF, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For IF GOD SPARED NOT THE NATURAL BRANCES, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, IF THEY ABIDE NOT STILL IN UNBELIEF, SHALL BE GRAFTED IN: for GOD IS ABLE TO GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, AND WERT GRAFTED contrary to nature INTO A GOOD OLIVE TREE.: HOW MUCH MORE SHALL THESE, which be **THE NATURAL BRANCES, BE GRAFTED INTO THEIR OWN **OLIVE TREE? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.]

There is only ONE olive tree whose roots are holy and we have been grafted into that ONE OLIVE TREE. When God converts all Israel, they will be grafted back into that SAME, ONE, OLIVE TREE, with the ONE people of God. In the ONE BODY AND BRIDE OF CHRIST, THE CHURCH.

CONTINUED:**

 

[jlhargus]

[Eph3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 **THAT THE GENTILES SHOULD BE FELLOWHEIRS, and OF THE SAME BODY, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

[Eph2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 **That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens FROM the commonwealth of ISRAEL, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For HE IS OUR PEACE, WHO HATH MADE BOTH ONE, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for TO MAKE IN HIMSELF of twain ONE NEW MAN, so making peace; 16 And that he might RECONCILE BOTH unto God IN ONE BODY by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we BOTH have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but FELLOWCITIZENS with the saints, and OF THE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom ALL THE BUILDING fitly framed together GROWETH UNTO AN HOLY TEMPLE IN THE LORD: 22 In whom ye also are BUILDED TOGETHER for AN HABITATION OF GOD through the Spirit.] I see NO evidence there are two people of God. When God converts all Israel they will be baptized into the ONE BODY OF CHRIST the Church.

[1Cor12:13 For **by one Spirit are we ALL BAPTIZED into ONE BODY, WHETHER we be JEWS or GENTILES , whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.] By the Spirit are ALL BAPTIZED into one BODY, the Church.

Gal3:26 For YE ARE ALL CHILDREN OF GOD BY FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS. 27 For AS MANY OF YOU AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST have put on Christ. 28 THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for YE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye ABRAHAM’S SEED, and HEIRS according TO THE PROMISE.

Rms 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Eph3:11 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That ** GENTILES SHOULD BE FELLOWHEIRS, AND OF THE SAME BODY, and PARTAKERS of his promise in Christ by the gospel:**

 

[jlhargus]

Separating these into an understanding is very complex. To say with words that God died and was buried is one thing but to fully understand the union of Divinity and Humanity in the Person of Jesus Christ and His Body that suffered, died, and was buried is another. I hoping to read the Catechism of the Council of Trent to gain a further appreciation.

JL: Yes It can be complex, that’s why Mary is called Mother of God to make it less complex.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

All Catholics know that it is a tough thing to grasp. As a matter of fact, it is harder for us to grasp it BECAUSE we believe it.

But, in all sincerity, why do non-Catholics argue against “Mother of God” on the basis of something we do NOT believe, i.e. that Mary precedes God as His Mother?

Again, we understand that you do not understand because WE do not understand. We can only partially get it. And most, if not all, Catholic doctrine can be misleading if you do not consider the Catholic view of it. Technically speaking, a non-Catholic view of Catholic doctrine will probably make it false, as shown in this thread and the other one (not so much in this one).

As someone here pointed out, Mary is the Mother of God Incarnate, which is the exact same thing as God. I think that is the simplest answer.

 

[Rocket_Man]

[Eph3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 **THAT THE GENTILES SHOULD BE FELLOWHEIRS,

and OF THE SAME BODY, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

[Eph2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 **That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens FROM the commonwealth of ISRAEL, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For HE IS OUR PEACE, WHO HATH MADE BOTH ONE, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for TO MAKE IN HIMSELF of twain ONE NEW MAN, so making peace; 16 And that he might RECONCILE BOTH unto God IN ONE BODY by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we BOTH have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but FELLOWCITIZENS with the saints, and OF THE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom ALL THE BUILDING fitly framed together GROWETH UNTO AN HOLY TEMPLE IN THE LORD: 22 In whom ye also are BUILDED TOGETHER for AN HABITATION OF GOD through the Spirit.] I see NO evidence there are two people of God. When God converts all Israel they will be baptized into the ONE BODY OF CHRIST the Church.

[1Cor12:13 For **by one Spirit are we ALL BAPTIZED into ONE BODY, WHETHER we be JEWS or GENTILES , whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.] By the Spirit are ALL BAPTIZED into one BODY, the Church.

Gal3:26 For YE ARE ALL CHILDREN OF GOD BY FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS. 27 For AS MANY OF YOU AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST have put on Christ. 28 THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for YE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye ABRAHAM’S SEED, and HEIRS according TO THE PROMISE.

Rms 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Eph3:11 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That ** GENTILES SHOULD BE FELLOWHEIRS, AND OF THE SAME BODY, and PARTAKERS of his promise in Christ by the gospel:**

There is only one kingdom and Gentile and Jew are members alike. But I’m asking more of the political kingdom of ancient Israel under the rule of David’s lineage. Why did they crown the mothers to be queen? Were they following the customs of neighboring kingdoms in the same reasoning the kingdom was formed for Saul? Or was it that these kings were practicing polygamy where no wive could be honored above the other? Was there a heavenly decree handed down to Nathan or Samuel? For whatever reason it is somewhat flawed to take a earthly custom without any spiritual significance and apply the same to the heavenly kingdom. Are we also going to start naming individuals to other monarchical positions in the one heavenly kingdom to mimic the earthy political kingdom of Israel?

 

[minkymurph]

I have had this discussion with Protestants many times. It always baffled me why Protestants did not believe Mary was Mother of God, (one of the reasons I became Catholic, I believed if you believe in the Trinity, you must believe Mary is Mother of God.) In my discussions I have realised it depends on the Protestant you are talking to. There are Protestants, mostly Anglican, who have no problem Mary was Mother of God. Their difference with Catholicism is that, they don’t believe in praying to Mary as Catholics do.The problem is her intercession, not the Incarnation.

Other Protestants have said to me Mary was not Mother of God. Reason being, they are Calvinists, despite the fact Calvin believe Mary was the Theotikos. As the Reformation gathered pace, more and more of ‘Catholic’ believe was refuted. Some reformers felt the reforms did not go far enough and when Calvin died, his followers refuted the ‘Mary Mother of God’ teaching. As a result, we have religions today who are very far removed from the Creed and we have religions who have reformed so much they refute the Trinity; such as Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons.

A friend of mine who is Bretheren but claims to be Calvinist, (Brethern are influenced by Calvinism but not purely Calvinist) have, in my opinion,. reformed so much they are barely Christian; as in they have not totally refuted the Trinity like Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons, but barely believe in the Incarnation. Therefore, they refute Mary Mother of God to a greater extent than other Protestant denominations.

To sum up, Catholics believe Mary was Mother of God because to their understanding of the Trinity and the Incarnation. Do Protestants believe it? It depends on the Protestant you are talking to.

 

[Rocket_Man]

I have had this discussion with Protestants many times. It always baffled me why Protestants did not believe Mary was Mother of God, (one of the reasons I became Catholic, I believed if you believe in the Trinity, you must believe Mary is Mother of God.) In my discussions I have realised it depends on the Protestant you are talking to. There are Protestants, mostly Anglican, who have no problem Mary was Mother of God. Their difference with Catholicism is that, they don’t believe in praying to Mary as Catholics do.The problem is her intercession, not the Incarnation.

Other Protestants have said to me Mary was not Mother of God. Reason being, they are Calvinists, despite the fact Calvin believe Mary was the Theotikos. As the Reformation gathered pace, more and more of ‘Catholic’ believe was refuted. Some reformers felt the reforms did not go far enough and when Calvin died, his followers refuted the ‘Mary Mother of God’ teaching. As a result, we have religions today who are very far removed from the Creed and we have religions who have reformed so much they refute the Trinity; such as Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons.

A friend of mine who is Bretheren but claims to be Calvinist, (Brethern are influenced by Calvinism but not purely Calvinist) have, in my opinion,. reformed so much they are barely Christian; as in they have not totally refuted the Trinity like Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons, but barely believe in the Incarnation. Therefore, they refute Mary Mother of God to a greater extent than other Protestant denominations.

To sum up, Catholics believe Mary was Mother of God because to their understanding of the Trinity and the Incarnation. Do Protestants believe it? It depends on the Protestant you are talking to.

It not so much the “Mother of God” title in the rawest sense but what comes thereafter. Mankind having a form of religion has always elevated the creature over the creator. Just scrolling to the top of this page you will find a picture of Mary holding the baby Jesus. There isn’t anything wrong with the picture in it’s purest sense, but the suspecting protestant knowing only the significance of Christ Jesus crucified may see Mary foreign to the salvation picture.

 

[GaryTaylor]

However, many Catholics here seem to think that the BVM was Mother of God and until birth He was not God

That isn’t what the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ thinks or has written in Doctrine. So it has nothing to do with the Catholic Church:shrug:

Anyway…

And as stated directly above this post, so many other denominations of Christology are so far off track that the “issue” becomes them, not Gods Church.

A Gift from God, the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, now what church would be more aligned correctly with God? Those that dropped off at the 4th Ecumenical Council? Come, come now, let us stop talking falsly here.

Do we not think God, in “HIS KINGDOM” would run his own Church correctly? Wow, now theres a thought. And I wonder how He would feel about those “humans” who decided to run off and open there “own” church…In His KINGDOM? Now there’s a thought for you, that is “if” you really believe in God. Because when Christians start dropping off at the 4th Council, its hard to imagine what they believe.

Martin Luther was even on track with the Blessed Mother.

 

[Irish_Polock]

It not so much the “Mother of God” title in the rawest sense but what comes thereafter. Mankind having a form of religion has always elevated the creature over the creator. Just scrolling to the top of this page you will find a picture of Mary holding the baby Jesus. There isn’t anything wrong with the picture in it’s purest sense, but the suspecting protestant knowing only the significance of Christ Jesus crucified may see Mary foreign to the salvation picture.

This is what I have been saying about U.S. protestants’ having inherited disdain for the Catholic teachings in regard to the BVM from their puritan roots. This disdain is the issue, NOT that they consider the title “Mother of God” to be incorrect.

 

[GaryTaylor]

It not so much the “Mother of God” title in the rawest sense but what comes thereafter. Mankind having a form of religion has always elevated the creature over the creator. Just scrolling to the top of this page you will find a picture of Mary holding the baby Jesus. There isn’t anything wrong with the picture in it’s purest sense, but the suspecting protestant knowing only the significance of Christ Jesus crucified may see Mary foreign to the salvation picture.

You could look at the picture here in my avatar of Mary holding the baby Jesus. Its called the Black Madonna. It was painted by Luke while visiting the Holy Family after the Cross. The table that Jesus Christ built with His father Joseph is what it was painted on. As Luke sat with Mary and John and talked about the life of Christ. The painting reside’s in the Vatican now. Has a facinating History. You should read up on it.

And becomes even more important to me because when my brother died last month, it was the photo used at his “Catholic Burial.”

{Mankind having a form of religion has always elevated the creature over the creator}

Not sure what thats a referrence to?

 

[benedictus2]

It not so much the “Mother of God” title in the rawest sense but what comes thereafter. ** Mankind having a form of religion has alway**s elevated the creature over the creator.

Can you back this up with facts.

Just scrolling to the top of this page you will find a picture of Mary holding the baby Jesus. There isn’t anything wrong with the picture in it’s purest sense, but the suspecting protestant knowing only the significance of Christ Jesus crucified may see Mary foreign to the salvation picture.

Then what is wrong is with the Protestant not with what is being presented. If there is nothing wrong the picture then obviously it is the protestant ignorant of the fact that is in error.

Scott Hahn puts it this way. Jesus was an obedient Jew. He would have kept the Ten Commandments of His Father. He would have honured His Mother.

We really are only imitating Jesus in honoring his mother.

In Hebrew the word of honour in the 4th commandment is Koboda which means to glorify. So Jesus glorified Mary and thus it is only fitting that we honour her.

Jesus said: Follow me. So we did… in honouring her.

 

[benedictus2]

How then can you transpose the “IN Time” earthly Davidic kingship and customs “queen mother” to an eternal kingdom?

Because even in heaven Jesus is King and still retains His Humanity. Jesus is still Fully Human and Fully Divine in Heaven.

 

[benedictus2]

All Catholics know that it is a tough thing to grasp. As a matter of fact, it is harder for us to grasp it BECAUSE we believe it.

But, in all sincerity, why do non-Catholics argue against “Mother of God” on the basis of something we do NOT believe, i.e. that Mary precedes God as His Mother?

Again, we understand that you do not understand because WE do not understand. We can only partially get it. And most, if not all, Catholic doctrine can be misleading if you do not consider the Catholic view of it. Technically speaking, a non-Catholic view of Catholic doctrine will probably make it false, as shown in this thread and the other one (not so much in this one).

As someone here pointed out, Mary is the Mother of God Incarnate, which is the exact same thing as God. I think that is the simplest answer.

I think it will be easy to grasp if they don’t try to make it complicated.

I have seen so many illogical arguments on this thread in an attempt to prove the term false.

Stupid things, like “but Mary did not generate Jesus soul”, “God did not have a beginning”, etc, etc. Things we never even claimed in the first place.

It seems they are trying to willfully misunderstand.

For me the hardest thing to comprehend and something I will never comprehend is the hypostatic union but i believe it because the Church whom Christ promised will be led into truth said so.

 

[SunshineZA]

Because even in heaven Jesus is King and still retains His Humanity. Jesus is still Fully Human and Fully Divine in Heaven.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Can you back this up with facts.

I always read Romans 1 to be a picture of the creation and the fact is certainly expressed in the Israelites below Mount Horeb and all the future generations.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

 

[Rocket_Man]

JL: When I die my body will still be the body of a human being.

I don’t understand. I thought your human body decays into to the same dust before Adam. How can dust be human?

 

[PRmerger]

IMankind having a form of religion has always elevated the creature over the creator.

While this may be an indictment of pagan religions, it certainly is not true of Christianity.

Just scrolling to the top of this page you will find a picture of Mary holding the baby Jesus. There isn’t anything wrong with the picture in it’s purest sense, but the suspecting protestant knowing only the significance of Christ Jesus crucified may see Mary foreign to the salvation picture.

And they would be wrong! “Foreign” to the salvation picture? As if.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Because even in heaven Jesus is King and still retains His Humanity. Jesus is still Fully Human and Fully Divine in Heaven.

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

I think I understand…

 

[Izdaari]

Yes, Mary is the mother of the human incarnation of the 2nd Person of the Trinity, and therefore the mother of God, which Jesus is.

And some other non-Catholics won’t admit that?

 

[Rocket_Man]

And they would be wrong! “Foreign” to the salvation picture? As if.

The “Bible Christians” that I know came to repentance and faith through the living Word. The Spirit through the Word testifies of Christ Jesus, Him crucified for the salvation of our souls. The Spirit exalts Christ as King and this they hold onto dearly not wanting anyone or anything to enter into the relationship. They are wrong only in the sense of their desire to lay attached to the biblical cord of the birthing parent.