If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?

[benedictus2]

Yes, Mary is the mother of the human incarnation of the 2nd Person of the Trinity, and therefore the mother of God, which Jesus is.

And some other non-Catholics won’t admit that?

Finally someone is exhibiting common sense.

 

[benedictus2]

the “why” are thoughts like this:

“The Second Person of the Trinity is her God, not her son, for He did not originate in her womb.”

Our children do not originate from us. We are merely vehicles for God’s creation. No one ever claimed that Jesus originated in her womb.

You are refuting a statement we never even said.

I think it was to you that I gave a similar example before: You are saying to us, no you are not Aliens from Mars and I will prove that you are not Aliens from Mars. We say: We never claimed to be Aliens from Mars. You are delusional to think we said so.

To some Protestants the word "mother " implies more than giving birth;

Then it is not the word that has a problem. The problem is some protestants.

If someone don’t know the alphabet so is complaining about it, it is not that there is something wrong with the alphabet. The problem is a lack of education on the part those who do not know the alphabet.

 

[PbloPicasso]

THEOTOKOS
I believe the question might be best asked “why did the early Christians insist on describing the Blessed Mother as the mother of God?”

Jesus is God.
Jesus is man.
Both of these statements rarely get a good raking over. We’re talking about the Hypostatic union. Jesus is fully God and fully man. We can not separate the two. This was defined to defend against Gnosticism.

The Mother of God is not to say that Mary bore the entire trinity, but rather to clarify the teachings about Jesus, not so much her own role. However, understanding the fall of man and the necessity for fixing the original woundedness of man, which we call Original Sin. These terms have definitions and that’s why I used descriptive language to help clarify the meaning. Most Christians, whether they realize it or not, believe in the same thing. Those who say otherwise are either truly denying the divinity of Christ or really simply get scrupulous about the language being utilized. It’s like the “call no man teacher” idea. Some Protestants say not to call a man reverernd, father or teacher, yet they do it everyday. For instance there term doctor means teacher. We call our own biological fathers , father. I believe this is a form of scrupulosity. Scripture taken out of context.

Mary does have a special place in salvation history. It’s at least as significant as Moses, Abraham or others. In fact, its’ more important than the most important in scripture other than Jesus Christ. Without her fiat there would not have been the incarnation. Assuming for some strange reason God chose Mary and she said no, he would have already known and she would have rejected God’s request. However, someone else would have been if the incarnation was God’s will in the first place. It’s silly to say otherwise because Mary did not say "no but rather “let it be done according to thy will”. That’s when Mary verbalized it. Think for a second. No one else was present but the Angel Gabriel and Mary. Of course God was there. No one but Mary was present. Even Joseph wasn’t present for that moment. But God sure set Joseph straight. There really should be no problem over this statement. I think a lot of Catholics really don’t understand it either. I think the best of us barely understand much of it.

 

[benedictus2]

I was reading this and needed to throw my two cents in.
First off, Mary is not perfect. I can’t stand seeing people say that. God uses regular people (sinners) to do His work. All have sinned. The Bible clearly states that in many places.

If you say ALL means ALL, then you are saying that Jesus also sinned?

To say God couldn’t use a sinful Mary to fulfill Christ’s mission is completely degrading what God can do.

No we are not saying that. But God chose not to do it that way.He chose to create Mary sinless.

Where anywhere does it say Mary is perfect? She was a very very Godly woman, worthy of being looked up to, but not perfect.

I am not sure perfect is the word. We say she was conceived without original sin.

Second Protestants biggest problem is the veneration of Mary.

There’s nothing wrong with the veneration. The problem was with the Protestants.

For 1500 years, she was venerated and there was no problem.

Yes she was the vessel that delivered Jesus to us, but every work of God is as important as the last. You diminish others by upholding Mary so much. The last shall be first.

Nope. Would an artist be angry if we praise their magnum opus.

Mary is the finest work of God. When we honour her we give glory to God.

Do you think Mozart would be offended if he were alive today should we say to him we love your Clarinet concerto so much we listen to it everyday? Would he think, why are they not admiring me instead of my work?

Those who are truly Marian will also be truly Christocentric.

Mary is Queen of Heaven because Gabriel heralded her as “full of grace”?

No Mary is Queen of Heaven because her Son is King of Heaven and Earth.

To me that reads, she was a sinner, she needs her sins forgiven, God fills her full of grace.

Here’s the thing. Even before she conceived Christ, even before Christ died for our sins, the Angel already said that she was “full of grace”.

How can that be when grace comes from Christ’s salvific death?

Are we not saved by grace?

And yet, even fore that happened, the grace that we need to be saved she was already full of, that means there is no room for anything else.

So think that through.

Not that by her own doing she became “perfect” enough to bear God’s Way.

No not by her own way. God made her that way.

We are all rewarded in Heaven based on what we do here on earth but I don’t think we really know the whole there is to know so I’m gonna stick with just whats in the Bible,

You mean the Bible that the Catholic Church gave the world?

not what the Pope thinks he can add through decree.

You mean the Pope of the same Church that gave the world the Bible?

And yes she is the Mother of God, in the way my mother is the Mother of Westwaswon haha.

But that is exactly what we mean.

But not in the sense she has a spec of divinity.

And we never said that. Why is it that Protestants are in the habit of making things up, claiming we say things we never did and then proceed to try to refute their own arguments.

That surely is some kind of disorder.

Jesus even exsisted before Mary, He created the earth. Which I think we all agree on but your saying sounds confusing and needlessly dogmatic.

There is nothing wrong with what we are saying. We all understand it. Billions of people understand it. That you don’t understand it means that its you who have a problem.

Why can’t Mary just be a great lady, who loved God as we should, and was lucky enough to be a big player in God’s story?

For one thing, there is no such thing as luck. God chose her specially. At the very beginning of the Bible, in Genesis, she was already spoken of.

She is part of God’s Will, of God’s way of acting.

Why not spend the time praying to her, just praying right to Jesus?

Ever heard of a little incident called the wedding at Cana?

Protestants in my circles honor Mary and deservedly so,

Yeah right. Pull the other one.

but they don’t ADD all the things Catholics do.

Because they don’t know the rest of the truth

Will a catholic please answer that for me? Why all the pomp for her?

Because she is the Mother of God.

Jesus honoured her. We are just following Jesus because after all, He said follow me.

Why is she more deserving? Why assign extra emphasis?

Because God the Father gave her extra emphasis by making her the Mother of her Son.

We honour God’s way of acting. This is the way God acted.

 

[minkymurph]

the “why” are thoughts like this:

“The Second Person of the Trinity is her God, not her son, for He did not originate in her womb.”

To some Protestants the word "mother " implies more than giving birth;

That does not mean I agree with them, but I can understand why they think that.

Well I wouldn’t agree either because of the way Catholics understand the Incarnation. However, your the first person who has ever given me a sensible answer in comparison to some of the other’s I have been given. Very difficult to dialogue with someone when you don’t really understand were they are coming from.

 

[tester]

Well I wouldn’t agree either because of the way Catholics understand the Incarnation. However, your the first person who has ever given me a sensible answer in comparison to some of the other’s I have been given. Very difficult to dialogue with someone when you don’t really understand were they are coming from.

Thank you; not all have been as charitable as you.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7403817#post7403817

 

[GaryTaylor]

And further on down the road. Its not just Protestants either. We argue daily among ourself on the need of the Blessed Mother in Faith. And of course all these same questions come up.

As we struggle though the maze of life many come upon this early, some late, some never. I believe St Montfort had it right. Its a Grace not all receive, because through free-will some chose not to.

The understanding and teaching and doctrines of the Church are what they are. At the end of all that, is still “you” and your Free-Will. The Ball always bounce’s back in your hands.

The past century has only shown the faith they are right in their thinking with Our Lady. There no being led astray with Mary, those who walk the path of the Blessed Mother have received a special Grace without a doubt. I couldn’t conclude otherwise, and I assure you like many right here, I have tried. What was constantly bought to confrontation with me by Her children is “Why don’t you just give the Rosary and Honest effort”?

Well at some you have to ask yourself if you are just being hard-headed? And I asked myself that very question. I couldn’t honestly answer the question so I gave the Rosary an Honest Effort of one year daily. {I know, its not easy, I’m lazy and I fought that tooth and nail} But I also am student of other loves such as Music which take a constant effort in fundamental practice. I also went to college on a athletic scholarship. So working daily to achieve a goal isn’t a new concept to me. So I gave the Rosary an Honest effort.

Well here’s what happened. I was lead, to a deeper Devotion in Faith. Mass, Confession, and Prayer. Things happened that I can’t logically explain. I feel I have been somehow shown aspects of faith and understanding I wouldn’t have came upon otherwise. You can’t walk to far down the path before you conclude, its impossible to follow the Rosary and be led astray. That becomes abundantly clear early. You can’t walk to far down the path without it dawning on you, that if everyone just in the Catholic faith observed the devotion to the recitation, the world would clearly be a better place.

Perhaps this alone would change the world. Its certainly worth the effort, and is the best logical plan to change the world I’ve witnessed in the world, which I believe can actually work. If theres a better do-able plan I’ve yet to see it. Mans history is a history of War and a battle of good vs evil. So, how about we go with God on this one and the best survival plan anyone has come up with to date?

 

[Rocket_Man]

You said: Mankind having a form of religion has always elevated creature over the creator.

I said: Can you back it up with facts.

Your answer is not facts.

You cite only 1 example which does not back up your claim.

The problem with your statement is ALWAYS. Show that all mankind’s religions always elevate the created over the creator.

By saying so, you are saying that Christianity also elevates the created over the creator and that Judaism is the same.

I think you need to think again.

And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

The tendency to exalt the created is inherit in all mankind and the potential exists under the disguises of any named religion… “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints”

 

[Rocket_Man]

I think Rocket_Man thought that statement sounded profound so he wrote it

LOL… It may come across that way but it’s more likely it’s come from reading and listening continuously to the old English in the KJV. In some way you think and write as you hear - the same as children learn their native tongue. I get accused of the same from of my wife and children.

 

[facetious5487]

I was raised protestant (now episcopalian) and we were never taught that Mary was not the mother of god. Where are you getting this information from?

 

[Rocket_Man]

Indeed. It was clearly an immature love that she offered to our Lord; who could doubt, however, as this love grew and matured that she wanted to be with Him and know ALL that was OF Him.

Perhaps this is the best example you’ve given of said Christians who want Him and Him alone. Their love is indeed like the penitent prostitute’s immature love that needs to grow and ripen into that which Catholicism proclaims.

Whether it be the seed or the blossom of true love could be argued with Jesus’ own words. “Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, [the same] loveth little.”

Even your own Church Fathers have written:

"The first thing is ever to recollect that all Christian knowledge is reduced to one single head, or rather, to use the words of the Apostle, this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. A teacher in the Church should, therefore, use his best endeavours that the faithful earnestly desire to know Jesus Christ, and him crucified, that they be firmly convinced, and with the most heartfelt piety
and devotion believe, that there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved, for he is the propitiation for our sins. "

 

[PRmerger]

I was raised protestant (now episcopalian) and we were never taught that Mary was not the mother of god. Where are you getting this information from?

Check out this page on a google search I did.

google.com/#hl=en&expIds=17259&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=%22mary+is+not+the+mother+of+god%22+&cp=32&pf=p&sclient=psy&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=%22mary+is+not+the+mother+of+god%22+&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=1&cad=b

It shows the numerous Christian denominations that deny Mary is the mother of God.

 

[PRmerger]

Whether it be the seed or the blossom of true love could be argued with Jesus’ own words. “Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, [the same] loveth little.”

Even your own Church Fathers have written:

"The first thing is ever to recollect that all Christian knowledge is reduced to one single head, or rather, to use the words of the Apostle, this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. A teacher in the Church should, therefore, use his best endeavours that the faithful earnestly desire to know Jesus Christ, and him crucified, that they be firmly convinced, and with the most heartfelt piety
and devotion believe, that there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved, for he is the propitiation for our sins. "

How does this disagree with my statement that Fundamentalists who say ME and Jesus and NO ONE ELSE is an immature faith?

 

[Roy5]

After reading many CAF postings, I’ve concluded that there are two types of respondees.

** First, are the true believers, mostly traditional Catholics.** They sincerely feel that anything proclaimed by the Church, by church councils centuries ago, or declared by the Vatican in the fields of doctrine and morality - such decisions are ipso facto valid today. Anyone who disagrees must be a heretic. I note that I have been accused of Nestorianism. In years past I have been described as an Adoptianist, a Monophysite, a Monarchianist, an Arian, etc. So, I'm not quite sure of which heresy I am guilty. Thank God Thomas Aquinas' position isn't in effect. He didn't believe that the church should execute heretics. No. The church should turn heretics over to the state which then had the responsibility to execute them.

**Then, there are those who resist authority**.I guess I am guilty of that. Just because some council centuries ago issued some doctrinal statement doesn't mean that I must fall in line. No. We live in a different world with considerably more knowledge than the world had then. Perhaps, too, I am too influenced by denocracy in our nation, but I enjoy weighing, testing, exploring, investigating, researching, thinking, etc. Without these options I would feel like a robot. I need to come to my own conclusions. I know this means that I am not only a heretic, but also egotistic, rebellious, and have other qualities that make me so independent-minded. Or, so I have been charged.

 ** So, when it comes to Mary, I feel a strong desire to come to my own conclusion about her.** In all honesty, I can't believe that she minds. I am well aware that the church calls her the Mother of God as well as Queen of Heaven and many other titles. I simply don't see how a creature like Mary can be mother of the supreme Creator. Yes, she can have born the body of Christ, as she did, and we honor her for that. But "Mother on God" implies to me that she gave birth to God. She gave birth to Jesus the man, not to his divine nature.

** But perhaps that is quibbling. Maybe it’s mainly a problem of semantics.** If others want to call her the Mother of God, fine. Someday, when we get to heaven, the truth will be revealed, and my guess is that we all will have missed the mark by a huge distance. We live on this tiny speck in space and I don’t even know what’s going on across the street as I type this. How can I begin to understand this mammoth, magnificent, mysterious and miraculous universe? We need the humility to admit our limitations and rely more on faith. “For we walk by faith, not by sight.” II Cor. 5:7.
** Happy New Year!**

 

[Cruxis117]

 ** So, when it comes to Mary, I feel a strong desire to come to my own conclusion about her.** In all honesty, I can't believe that she minds. I am well aware that the church calls her the Mother of God as well as Queen of Heaven and many other titles. I simply don't see how a creature like Mary can be mother of the supreme Creator. Yes, she can have born the body of Christ, as she did, and we honor her for that. But "Mother on God" implies to me that she gave birth to God. She gave birth to Jesus the man, not to his divine nature.

** Happy New Year!**

In relation to the current thread topic, I will focus on this part of your response.

I think the fact is, is that Mary did give birth to God, who is Jesus our Lord. Because, in all honesty, women do not give birth to ‘natures’. While I agree that yes, his divine Nature comes from God (and himself, being the Living Word who was With God and Was God), Mary gave birth to Jesus, who was both divine and human. It’s not like his divine nature was bestowed upon him later in life, he was born that way. Jesus was, is, and always will be God, ‘I Am’, the Alpha and the Omega. This is what Mary gave birth to. Like I’ve said in a previous thread, when a Mother and a Father participate in the marital act and the Mother gives birth, and the Mother has blonde hair and the Father has black hair, and the Child has black hair, does that mean that the Mother isn’t the mother of the child, because she never passed on that trait? In this same manner, just because Mary did not pass on that ‘trait’ of divine nature to Jesus, doesn’t mean that he was God, and that she gave birth to, raised, and cared for him. Therefore, I believe that it is logical to call her the ‘Mother of God’.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

She gave birth to Jesus the man, not to his divine nature.

Again, this statement is incorrect. Jesus is one person with two natures not two persons per nature.

ONE person. A person is a unity. That is why we say a person is born, not a nature or a body. My parents did not give me my soul, (it was created directly by God), only my body. However, I do not walk around saying my mother gave birth only to my body. Rather, she gave birth to me!

I think this teaching all comes down to anti-Catholic bias. If we all stepped aside from those bias for a moment, “Mother of God” would make sense to us. The Catholic Church does not teach she “created” God or is somehow equal to/part of the Trinity. The Catholic Church does not teach she gave Jesus His divinity. All those fallacies aside: Jesus is God------Mary gave birth to Jesus-------Mary is the Mother of God!!

**Happy Feast of Mary, Mother of God.

May our Lord Be Praised. All ages will call her Blessed.**

AMEN.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Even your own Church Fathers have written:

Yes, the Church Fathers spoke on this topic too:

St. Ignatius of Antioch (110). “For our God, Jesus Christ, ***was conceived by ***Mary in accord with God’s plan…”

St. Irenaeus of Lyons (180-199). “The Virgin Mary…being obedient to His word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God.”

-Letter to the Ephesians, 18, 2; William A. Jurgens, editor, The Faith of the Early Fathers (Collegeville, Minnesota; Liturgical Press, 1970), Volume 1, n. 42.
-Against Heresies, 5, 19, 1; Jurgens, Vol. 1, n. 256a.

It is a radical departure from Scripture and the Fathers to deny Mary as the Mother of God.

 

[zarthan]

Again, this statement is incorrect. Jesus is one person with two natures not two persons per nature.

ONE person. A person is a unity. That is why we say a person is born, not a nature or a body. My parents did not give me my soul, (it was created directly by God), only my body. However, I do not walk around saying my mother gave birth only to my body. Rather, she gave birth to me!

I think this teaching all comes down to anti-Catholic bias. If we all stepped aside from those bias for a moment, “Mother of God” would make sense to us. The Catholic Church does not teach she “created” God or is somehow equal to/part of the Trinity. The Catholic Church does not teach she gave Jesus His divinity. All those fallacies aside: Jesus is God------Mary gave birth to Jesus-------Mary is the Mother of God!!
AMEN.

This has nothing to do with Catholic bias. There are wonderful Catholic laity, priests, nuns, bishops, cardinals and even popes. It has to do with having some Catholic clarity and humility . Why can not the Roman Catholic church admit that the phrase ‘mother of God’ is confusing to most non-Catholics? If they know it is confusing, then why not at least change it to: “the mother of God incarnate”? On the other hand, there are plenty of traditional Catholics who are quick to judge and condemn those of us who do not toe the line on Marian dogma. When will we learn? God help us.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

You are not correct in stating that the word, “Lord” (Kurios) in the N.T. only refers to God.

Nitpicky. And as for my other Scripture passages that affirm her divine maternity? Or perhaps the Early Church Fathers quotes? You know, the heresy that Mary is not the Mother of God only began in 429 with a bishop named Nestorius. Any proof that it was rejected before then? By that, I mean Scripture or the Early Fathers (but I wouldn’t use Scripture if I were you). Thank you and God Bless.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

It has to do with having some Catholic clarity and humility.

True, we NEED clarity. That is one of my biggest goals on this message board.

Why can not the Roman Catholic church admit that the phrase ‘mother of God’ is confusing to most non-Catholics? If they know it is confusing, then why not at least change it to: “the mother of God incarnate”?

If you believe in the Incarnation, you believe in her divine maternity, simple as that.

On the other hand, there are plenty of traditional Catholics who are quick to judge and condemn those of us who do not toe the line on Marian dogma. When will we learn? God help us.

Yes, it is difficult for many of us to grasp some or all of the Marian Dogmas. Most people who are converts to the Faith struggled the most when it came to Mary. But once the central truths about her are recognized, you will find she is “one of the most precious treasures within Catholicism.”

I try to be both understanding and charitable in my posts, but I also like to be clear. Please know this is how most of us function on CAF.