If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?

[zarthan]

Yes, the Church Fathers spoke on this topic too:

St. Ignatius of Antioch (110). “For our God, Jesus Christ, ***was conceived by ***Mary in accord with God’s plan…”

St. Irenaeus of Lyons (180-199). “The Virgin Mary…being obedient to His word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God.”

-Letter to the Ephesians, 18, 2; William A. Jurgens, editor, The Faith of the Early Fathers (Collegeville, Minnesota; Liturgical Press, 1970), Volume 1, n. 42.
-Against Heresies, 5, 19, 1; Jurgens, Vol. 1, n. 256a.

It is a radical departure from Scripture and the Fathers to deny Mary as the Mother of God.

Ignatius letter to the Ephesians

shorter version of 18:2 "For our God, Jesus Christ, was according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Spirit." (Schaff’s Pre-Nicene Early Church Fathers. VOL.1)

Longer version of 18:2 "For the Son of God, who was begotten before time began, and established all things according to the will of the Father, He was conceived in the womb of Mary, according to the appointment of God, of the seed of David, and by the Holy Spirit." (Schaff’s Pre-Nicene Early Church Fathers. VOL. 1)

Ireneaus Against Heresies, Vol. 5, chap.19, paragraph 1: **“For just as the former [Eve] was led astray by the word of an angel [Satan], so that she fled from God when she had transgressed His word; so did the latter, [Mary] by an angelic communication, receive the glad tidings that she would sustain (portaret) God, being obedient to His word. And if the former did disobey God, yet the latter was persuaded to be obedient to God, in order that the Virgin Mary might become the patroness?] (advocata?) of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so is it rescued by a virgin; virginal disobedience having been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience.” **(Schaff’s Pre-Nicene Early Church Fathers. VOL 1).

The citation of Ignatius in the shorter version speaks of Mary as having conceived our God, Jesus Christ ** of the seed of David **(which you conveniently omitted and which I do not have a quarrel with.) There is the longer version of the same epistle which speaks of the Son of God being conceived by the Virgin Mary. Both versions speak of the conception according to the seed of David.

The citation of Ireneaus does not speak of the Virgin Mary that would bear God but rather sustain God in her obedience to the glad tidings of Gabriel.

There is no proof of your assertion that the early church fathers refer to Mary as ‘the mother of God’ from these citations. I should add, honesty to clarity and humility. For it is dishonest of you to say that I am nitpicky in giving you just a few of the many references in the N.T. that refute your claim that Kurios **only refers to God **in the N.T.

 

[zarthan]

Correction on the meaning of the latin word, portaret. Not a student of Latin, I now think ‘bear’ would be a better translation, than ‘sustain’. The idea is to contrast Eve who ‘fled’ God, and the Virgin Mary who welcomed God. Since, the Latin word, portaret does not mean welcome, but rather bear, or carry, or bring. Regardless, I do not have a problem with the Virgin Mary being called the “God bearer”, or the “mother of God incarnate”.

These pre-Nicene early church father citations do not speak of the Virgin Mary as being the ‘mother of God’.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

The citation of Ignatius in the shorter version speaks of Mary as having conceived our God, Jesus Christ ** of the seed of David **(which you conveniently omitted and which I do not have a quarrel with.) There is the longer version of the same epistle which speaks of the Son of God being conceived by the Virgin Mary. Both versions speak of the conception according to the seed of David.

In all honesty, I did not conveniently omit anything. I found those excerpts the way they are and did not read the full epistle nor shorten it to further get across what I was saying. But, my question is, how is citing those parts of the epistle going to help your argument? The Early Church Fathers—who were very clear—do not agree with your standpoint. As I stated, “Mother of God” was not rejected until AFTER the writings of Ignatius, Irenaeus or the other Fathers. Again, where is your proof it was rejected in their writings?

I apologize for the “nitpicky” comment–you’ll find I’m very defensive of the Blessed Mother and on Marian threads I get frustrated all too easily. From here on in, I hope we can both be civil with each other. God bless.

 

[zarthan]

In all honesty, I did not conveniently omit anything. I found those excerpts the way they are and did not read the full epistle nor shorten it to further get across what I was saying. But, my question is, how is citing those parts of the epistle going to help your argument? The Early Church Fathers—who were very clear—do not agree with your standpoint. As I stated, “Mother of God” was not rejected until AFTER the writings of Ignatius, Irenaeus or the other Fathers. Again, where is your proof it was rejected in their writings?

I apologize for the “nitpicky” comment–you’ll find I’m very defensive of the Blessed Mother and on Marian threads I get frustrated all too easily. From here on in, I hope we can both be civil with each other. God bless.

I can assure you, that I have all the volumes of the Pre-Nicene church fathers, and I am not aware of any place where any church father refers to the Virgin Mary as the ‘mother of God’. Overall, there are few references to the Virgin Mary in the 8 volume set of the Pre-Nicene church fathers.

Your apology is accepted, and I do respect people of Marian faith, especially if they are humble before God.

God bless you too! (I am drawn especially to St. Therese, the Little Flower, and also St. Theresa of Avila, and St. Theresa Benedicta of the Cross and even Theresa Neumann in her spiritual resistance to the Nazis).

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I can assure you, that I have all the volumes of the Pre-Nicene church fathers, and I am not aware of any place where any church father refers to the Virgin Mary as the ‘mother of God’. Overall, there are few references to the Virgin Mary in the 8 volume set of the Pre-Nicene church fathers.

Your apology is accepted, and I do respect people of Marian faith, especially if they are humble before God.

God bless you too! (I am drawn especially to St. Therese, the Little Flower, and also St. Theresa of Avila, and St. Theresa Benedicta of the Cross and even Theresa Neumann in her spiritual resistance to the Nazis).

Many of the early Fathers referred to her as “Theotokos” which translates “God-bearer” or “Mother of God.”

*** “And in one only Catholic Church, that which is Apostolic… we acknowledge the resurrection of the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the firstling; who bore a body not in appearance but in truth, derived from Mary THE MOTHER OF GOD [Theotokos]…”
–Alexander of Alexandria (c. 324 A.D.) Letter to a Bishop*

“This Virgin became a Mother while preserving her virginity; And though still a Virgin she carried a Child in her womb; And the handmaid and work of His Wisdom became THE MOTHER OF GOD [Theotokos].”

–St. Ephraim (306 - 373 A.D.) “Songs of Praise”

“Accordingly, the Son of God became Son of Man, so that the sons of man, that is, of Adam, might become sons of God. The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incompre- hensibly and eternally, is He that is born in time here below, of the Virgin Mary, THE MOTHER OF GOD [Theotokos].”

–St. Athanasius (c. 295 - 373 A.D.) Incarnation of the Word 8

“Many, my beloved, are the true witnesses to Christ. The Father bears witness from heaven to His Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The Archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing good tidings to Mary. The Virgin MOTHER OF GOD [Theotokos] bears witness…”

–St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 315 - 386 A.D.) Catech Lect 10:19

“If anyone does not agree that Holy Mary is THE MOTHER OF GOD [Theotokos], he is at odds with the Godhead. If anyone asserts that Christ passed through the Virgin as through a channel, and was not shaped in her both divinely and humanly, divinely because without man and humanly because in accord with the law of gestation, he is likewise godless.”

–St. Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335 - 394 A.D.) Virginity 14(13)

"I have been amazed that some are utterly in doubt as to whether or not the Holy Virgin is able to be called MOTHER OF GOD [Theotokos]. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how should the Holy Virgin who bore Him NOT be THE MOTHER OF GOD?

–St. Cyril of Alexandria (c. 423 A.D.) Letters 1, 39**

Pertaining to my other quotes: Irenaeus said, “she would bear God.” Mothers “bear” their children do they not? Ignatius said, “our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary.” Other Fathers, St. Justin Martyr, and St. Ambrose wrote about her and had a special devotion to her as Mother of God. In fact, the earliest prayer we have referring to Mary as the Mother of God dates to about 250 A.D. It is called “Sub Tuum Praesidium” (“Under Your Protection”) and begins, “We fly to your patronage, O Holy Mother of God…”

Thank you very much. I am indeed blessed to know Mary as my patroness and Mother. I only wish more did.

I was named after my patron saint, St. Therese the Little Flower What a beautiful soul. All of those saints you named were beautiful (if you would like, I have other saint quotes about Mary’s divine maternity, please ask). God bless!

 

[elvisman]

I can assure you, that I have all the volumes of the Pre-Nicene church fathers, and I am not aware of any place where any church father refers to the Virgin Mary as the ‘mother of God’. Overall, there are few references to the Virgin Mary in the 8 volume set of the Pre-Nicene church fathers.

Your apology is accepted, and I do respect people of Marian faith, especially if they are humble before God.

God bless you too! (I am drawn especially to St. Therese, the Little Flower, and also St. Theresa of Avila, and St. Theresa Benedicta of the Cross and even Theresa Neumann in her spiritual resistance to the Nazis).

Then you truly haven’t studied the Early Church Fathers, have you friend?
Here are a few quotes from some Pre-Nicene Fathers as well as Post Nicene that declare Mary to be** the Mother of GOD:**

Gregory the Wonderworker
**For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary, the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David (*Four Homilies *1 [A.D. 262]). **

**It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the feast of] the Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, “Hail, full of grace!” (ibid., 2). **

Peter of Alexandria
**They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs (*The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria *[A.D. 305]). **

Methodius
**Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . (*Oration on Simeon and Anna *7 [A.D. 305]). **

Cyril of Jerusalem
**The archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness (*Catechetical Lectures *10:19 [A.D. 350]). **

Ephraim the Syrian
**Though still a virgin she carried a child in her womb, and the handmaid and work of his wisdom became the Mother of God (*Songs of Praise *1:20 [A.D. 351]). **

Athanasius
**The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally, is he that is born in time here below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God (*The Incarnation of the Word of God *8 [A.D. 365]). **

Epiphanius of Salamis
Being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate among us, not in appearance but in truth, he [the Son] reshaped man to perfection in himself from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).

Ambrose of Milan
**The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? (*The Virgins *2:2[7] [A.D. 377]). **

Gregory of Nazianz
**If anyone does not agree that holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead (Letter to Cledonius the Priest 101 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome
**As to how a virgin became the Mother of God, he [Rufinus] has full knowledge; as to how he himself was born, he knows nothing (Against Rufinus 2:10 [A.D. 401]).

Theodore of Mopsuestia
**“When, therefore, they ask, ‘Is Mary mother of man or Mother of God?’ we answer, ‘Both!’ The one by the very nature of what was done and the other by relation” (The Incarnation 15 [A.D. 405]). **

Cyril of Alexandria
I have been amazed that some are utterly in doubt as to whether or not the holy Virgin is able to be called the Mother of God. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how should the holy Virgin who bore him not be the Mother of God? (Letter to the Monks of Egypt 1 [A.D. 427]).

John Cassian
**Therefore the Lord Jesus Christ is God. But if he is God, as he certainly is, then she who bore God is the Mother of God (*On the Incarnation of Christ Against Nestorius *2:2 [A.D. 429]). **

Council of Ephesus
**According to this understanding of the unconfused union, we confess the holy Virgin to be the Mother of God because God the Word took flesh and became man and from his very conception united to himself the temple he took from her (Formula of Union [A.D. 431]).

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Elvisman, we are certainly on the same page to quote the Fathers at about the same time!

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I was raised protestant (now episcopalian) and we were never taught that Mary was not the mother of god. Where are you getting this information from?

Scripture and the early Church Fathers. Oh, and throw in some common sense.

 

[zarthan]

Elvisman: Your first three sources are found in Vol.6 of the Pre-Nicene early church fathers.

The rest are post-nicene, which is during an era that was very politically charged over the theology of the Son of God. I prefer to stay with the Pre-Nicene early church fathers.

These are the ones you cited:

Gregory the Wonderworker
For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary, the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David (Four Homilies 1 [A.D. 262]).

It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the feast of] the Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, “Hail, full of grace!” (ibid., 2).

Peter of Alexandria
They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs (The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria [A.D. 305]).

Methodius
Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . (Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]).

Without going into great detail, all of three of these have footnotes from the translators stating that they are spurious or suspect. So I am not persuaded that you have proved anything from the Pre-Nicene early church fathers.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Without going into great detail, all of three of these have footnotes from the translators stating that they are spurious or suspect.

Please cite this. Thank you!

And from my other post (in case you missed it),

The earliest prayer we have referring to Mary as the Mother of God dates to about 250 A.D. It is called “Sub Tuum Praesidium” (“Under Your Protection”) and begins, “We fly to your patronage, O Holy Mother of God…”

Your response, if you don’t mind.

Another reminder: I am not trying to win a debate here. I am doing my very best to represent the Church–and only that. Thank you for your time and patience, Zarthan. +Peace to you.

 

[zarthan]

Please cite this. Thank you!

And from my other post (in case you missed it),Your response, if you don’t mind.

Another reminder: I am not trying to win a debate here. I am doing my very best to represent the Church–and only that. Thank you for your time and patience, Zarthan. +Peace to you.

lil flower: I would like to co-operate with you regarding these three Ante-Nicene citations.
The second citation does enter into the Nicene era debate. Admittedly, I have not read Vol.6 thoroughly, because I have a personal bias against writings which do not quote very many scriptures. Thus, I was unaware of these citations.

So, I would be dishonest to quote disparaging footnotes without reading these three writings thoroughly. Please give me some time and I will get back to you. Otherwise, you could try to access the 6th Volume of the Ante-Nicene Fathers online.

The Methodius citation is especially curious, because there are Marian concepts found in this writing that are not found anywhere else except perhaps in the ProtoEvangelium of James.

I remain diligent for the truth, with the grace of the honesty of Jesus Christ, himself.
God Bless.

 

[benedictus2]

Then you truly haven’t studied the Early Church Fathers, have you friend?
Here are a few quotes from some Pre-Nicene Fathers as well as Post Nicene that declare Mary to be** the Mother of GOD**:

Gregory the Wonderworker
For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary, the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David (*Four Homilies *1 [A.D. 262]).

It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the feast of] the Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, “Hail, full of grace!” (ibid., 2).

Peter of Alexandria
They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs (*The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria *[A.D. 305]).

Methodius
Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . (*Oration on Simeon and Anna *7 [A.D. 305]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
The archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness (*Catechetical Lectures *10:19 [A.D. 350]).

Ephraim the Syrian
Though still a virgin she carried a child in her womb, and the handmaid and work of his wisdom became the Mother of God (*Songs of Praise *1:20 [A.D. 351]).

Athanasius
The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally, is he that is born in time here below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God (*The Incarnation of the Word of God *8 [A.D. 365]).

Epiphanius of Salamis
Being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate among us, not in appearance but in truth, he [the Son] reshaped man to perfection in himself from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).

Ambrose of Milan
The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? (*The Virgins *2:2[7] [A.D. 377]).

Gregory of Nazianz
If anyone does not agree that holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead (*Letter to Cledonius the Priest *101 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome
As to how a virgin became the Mother of God, he [Rufinus] has full knowledge; as to how he himself was born, he knows nothing (*Against Rufinus *2:10 [A.D. 401]).

Theodore of Mopsuestia
"When, therefore, they ask, ‘Is Mary mother of man or Mother of God?’ we answer, ‘Both!’ The one by the very nature of what was done and the other by relation" (The Incarnation 15 [A.D. 405]).

Cyril of Alexandria
I have been amazed that some are utterly in doubt as to whether or not the holy Virgin is able to be called the Mother of God. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how should the holy Virgin who bore him not be the Mother of God? (Letter to the Monks of Egypt 1 [A.D. 427]).

John Cassian
Therefore the Lord Jesus Christ is God. But if he is God, as he certainly is, then she who bore God is the Mother of God (*On the Incarnation of Christ Against Nestorius *2:2 [A.D. 429]).

Council of Ephesus
According to this understanding of the unconfused union, we confess the holy Virgin to be the Mother of God because God the Word took flesh and became man and from his very conception united to himself the temple he took from her (*Formula of Union *[A.D. 431]).

Brilliant Elvis!!! :clapping::clapping::clapping:

So much for Zarthan’s pretensions as regards the Fathers.

 

[benedictus2]

Scripture and the early Church Fathers.** Oh, and throw in some common sense**.

Yes, that has been sorely lacking in the arguments from those questioning Mary as Mother of God.

 

[elvisman]

Elvisman: Your first three sources are found in Vol.6 of the Pre-Nicene early church fathers.

The rest are post-nicene, which is during an era that was very politically charged over the theology of the Son of God. I prefer to stay with the Pre-Nicene early church fathers.

These are the ones you cited:

Gregory the Wonderworker
For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary, the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David (Four Homilies 1 [A.D. 262]).

It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the feast of] the Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, “Hail, full of grace!” (ibid., 2).

Peter of Alexandria
They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs (The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria [A.D. 305]).

Methodius
Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . (Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]).

Without going into great detail, all of three of these have footnotes from the translators stating that they are spurious or suspect. So I am not persuaded that you have proved anything from the Pre-Nicene early church fathers.

**You are the very first person I have ever heard of that spoke ill of Methodius or Gregory the Wonderworker. Their writings are some of the most respected of the pre-nicene Fathers. No - the fact is that you’ve been exposed. **

You claimed that there were NO pre-Nicene Fathers who spoke of Mary as the Mother of God and I furnished you with no less than THREE, which has smashed your argument to pieces.

Show me some evidence that these are not legitimate writings.

Spurious, indeed! **

 

[minkymurph]

Elvisman: Your first three sources are found in Vol.6 of the Pre-Nicene early church fathers.

The rest are post-nicene, which is during an era that was very politically charged over the theology of the Son of God. I prefer to stay with the Pre-Nicene early church fathers.

These are the ones you cited:

Gregory the Wonderworker
For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary, the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David (Four Homilies 1 [A.D. 262]).

It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the feast of] the Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, “Hail, full of grace!” (ibid., 2).

Peter of Alexandria
They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs (The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria [A.D. 305]).

Methodius
Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . (Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]).

Without going into great detail, all of three of these have footnotes from the translators stating that they are spurious or suspect. So I am not persuaded that you have proved anything from the Pre-Nicene early church fathers.

One of my husband’s favourite sayings is, ‘before you ask a question, be sure you want to hear the answer.’

 

[minkymurph]

Then you truly haven’t studied the Early Church Fathers, have you friend?
Here are a few quotes from some Pre-Nicene Fathers as well as Post Nicene that declare Mary to be** the Mother of GOD**:

Gregory the Wonderworker
For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary, the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David (*Four Homilies *1 [A.D. 262]).

It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the feast of] the Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, “Hail, full of grace!” (ibid., 2).

Peter of Alexandria
They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs (*The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria *[A.D. 305]).

Methodius
Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . (*Oration on Simeon and Anna *7 [A.D. 305]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
The archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness (*Catechetical Lectures *10:19 [A.D. 350]).

Ephraim the Syrian
Though still a virgin she carried a child in her womb, and the handmaid and work of his wisdom became the Mother of God (*Songs of Praise *1:20 [A.D. 351]).

Athanasius
The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally, is he that is born in time here below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God (*The Incarnation of the Word of God *8 [A.D. 365]).

Epiphanius of Salamis
Being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate among us, not in appearance but in truth, he [the Son] reshaped man to perfection in himself from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).

Ambrose of Milan
The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? (*The Virgins *2:2[7] [A.D. 377]).

Gregory of Nazianz
If anyone does not agree that holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead (*Letter to Cledonius the Priest *101 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome
As to how a virgin became the Mother of God, he [Rufinus] has full knowledge; as to how he himself was born, he knows nothing (*Against Rufinus *2:10 [A.D. 401]).

Theodore of Mopsuestia
"When, therefore, they ask, ‘Is Mary mother of man or Mother of God?’ we answer, ‘Both!’ The one by the very nature of what was done and the other by relation" (The Incarnation 15 [A.D. 405]).

Cyril of Alexandria
I have been amazed that some are utterly in doubt as to whether or not the holy Virgin is able to be called the Mother of God. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how should the holy Virgin who bore him not be the Mother of God? (Letter to the Monks of Egypt 1 [A.D. 427]).

John Cassian
Therefore the Lord Jesus Christ is God. But if he is God, as he certainly is, then she who bore God is the Mother of God (*On the Incarnation of Christ Against Nestorius *2:2 [A.D. 429]).

Council of Ephesus
According to this understanding of the unconfused union, we confess the holy Virgin to be the Mother of God because God the Word took flesh and became man and from his very conception united to himself the temple he took from her (*Formula of Union *[A.D. 431]).

One of my husband’s favourite sayings is ‘before you ask a question, be sure you want to hear the answer.’

 

[elvisman]

One of my husband’s favourite sayings is ‘before you ask a question, be sure you want to hear the answer.’

Sounds like a wise man . . .

 

[zarthan]

Please cite this. Thank you!

And from my other post (in case you missed it),Your response, if you don’t mind.

?

Another reminder: I am not trying to win a debate here. I am doing my very best to represent the Church–and only that. Thank you for your time and patience, Zarthan. +Peace to you.

So far, I have been able to read the four homilies purported to be written by Gregory (A.D. 205-265).

They are eloquently written. The question remains, when was the feast day of the Annunciation first celebrated? After St. Chrysostom (circa A.D. 386) was able to search the annals of Roman history for the time of the census in which Joseph and Mary went to Bethlehem and determine December 25th as the date of his Jesus’ birth, or before?
(Usage of the term ‘mother of God’ is presumed to be a post-Nicene expression.)

According to the footnote 1 “Even Pellicia objects that this is a spurious work”

In the first Homily, Mary is referred to as the ark of the covenant. " For the holy Virgin is in truth an ark, wrought with gold both within and without, that has received the whole treasury of the sanctuary". (eventhough there seems to be some confusion as to the purpose of the ark of the covenant). I now am aware where this idea originated. It originated with this writing, I presume. Eventhough, at least a hundred years earlier, Irenaeus refers to the ark of the covenant as Jesus Christ:

"For as the ark [of the covenant] was gilded within and without with pure gold, so was also the body of Christ pure and resplendent; for it was adorned within by the Word, and shielded without by the Spirit, in order that from both [materials] the splendour of the natures might be clearly shown forth."
From the lost writings of Irenaeus, VIII.

This may be a Nicene, or Post-Nicene wording; "And if He is the Son of God, then is He also God, of one form with the Father, and co-eternal; in Him the Father posesses all manifestations; he is His image in the person, and through His reflection the (Father’s) glory shines forth."
Ist Homily.

In the fourth Homily, there is a curious description of the baptism of Jesus. In most of the pre-Nicene fathers who narrate his baptism in the Jordan, they say that the voice that spoke from heaven spoke these words: “Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee” Which we know to be Ps. 2:7. One can not find these words in the gospels accounts in any translation of today, except for the New Jerusalem translation in Luke’s gospel of his baptism.

In the fourth homily, it is described as such: "And He Himself calls with clear voice out of heaven, and says: “This is my beloved Son,”----the Jesus there, namely, and not the John; the one baptized, and not the one baptizing; He who was begotten of me before all periods of time, and not he who was begotten of Zacharias."

Thus, it looks like the usual “Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee” may have been substituted partially with the words, “This is my beloved Son”, and then the rest of the discourse was left in tact regarding his being begotten of the Father.

Finally, in the Elucidation at the end of the Four Homilies I quote:
"I can not do no better than follow Dupin as to the authorship of these Homilies. He thinks the style of Proclus (of Constantinople) may be detected in them, though the fourth is beyond him for eloquence, and has even been thought worthy of St. Chrysostom. It was produced after Nicea, and probably after Ephesus, its somewhat exaggerated praises of the theotokos being unusual at an earlier period. The titles of these Homilies are the work of much later editors; and interpolations probably occur frequently, by the same hands."

Can you tell me the source of the prayer you quoted? It seems interesting to pursue.

God’s peace.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Epistle: Galatians 4:4-7 (“But when the fulness of time was come, God sent his Son, born of an earthly mother…that we might by adoption become the offspring of a Heavenly Father.”)

Notice the correlation, God/Mother=Mother of God?

The Creeds say that Christ was “born of the virgin Mary.” That is to say, they assert on the one hand that he was truly and fully human, born of a woman and not descended from the skies like an angel. On the other hand, by telling us that his mother was a virgin they exclude the theory that he was simply an ordinary man who was so virtuous that he eventually, at his baptism, became filled with the Spirit of God.

His virgin birth attests to the fact that he was always more than merely human, always one whose presence among us was in itself a miracle, from the first moment of his earthly existence. In Mary, Virgin and Mother, God gives us a sign that Jesus is both truly God and truly Man.

Again the correlation becomes clear, Mother/God, Mother of God.

 

[GaryTaylor]

What I find facinating? What Jesus Christ actually said to the Seer at Fatima about the Holy Mother.

Blasphemies Against:

1. Blasphemies against he Immaculate Conception.
2. Blasphemies against Marys perperual Virginity.
3. Blashemies against Her divine Maternity, while refusing at the same time to recognize Her as Mother of men.
4. Blasphemeies of those who publicly seek to place in the hearts of children indifference or scorn, or even hatred towards this Immaculate Mother.
5. The offense’s of those who outrage Her directly in Her Holy Image’s.

BTW Jesus Christ HImself calls Mary the “Heavenly Mother” at Fatima.

The 5-Blashemies above relate to the message from Christ to the Seer about the First Saturday of the First Five Months, in Reparation of Sin. The “5-Blasphemies” against Mary is the reason for the “5-Saturdays.” See the Correlation again?

Luke 2:25 “And thy own Soul a sword shall pierce” The Prophecy of Simeon is still pretty much true today, wouldn’t you say?