If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?

[mountaintop]

There appears to be a problem with this woman being Mary. The Assumption of Mary teaches that Mary was assumed bodily into Heaven. Now the dragon was cast down from Heaven yet he was still able to pursue the woman which would indicate that she on earth, not in Heaven.

when Jesus was three days old Mary and Joesph had to flee to Egypt to escape king Herod
while she was on earth before the assumption. all male children under 1 yr were killed by Herod

 

[mountaintop]

He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew him not. He came unto His own, and His own received him not. But as many received Him, He gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in His Name. Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us. (and we saw His glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

yes God transposes time and space if Jesus is calling you into the upper room to have supper with him and you don’t want to come to dinner who made the choice? the fishes and loafs miracle was nothing compared to the Eucharist.people don’t understand the catholic mass.:

don’t sit by judassit by peter::knight2:

 

[rbarcia]

Are those of you go around claiming that Mary is NOT the Mother of God, really ready to come to the only honest conclusion which could possibly come from that: Mary is the Mother of Jesus, but Mary is NOT the Mother of God; therefore, Jesus could NOT be God.

If you believe that Jesus is God, than you Must agree with your entire heart & proclaim that Mary IS the Mother of God!

Are you proving Mary is the mother of God my mathematical induction.

This is a silly argument. If you go this way, I can say.

Saying something like, since Jesus Is God, and Mary is Mother of Jesus, then Mary is the mother of God.

Well, since Mary is the Mother of God, and the Father is God, then Mary is the mother of the Father. (but wouldn’t this be a heresy).

And since Mary is the Mother of God, and the Holy Spirit is God, then Mary is the mother of the Holy Spirit. (Again heresy).

So this whole thread is flawed unless you are ready to take it to the conclusions I got to by this silly logic.

 

[Cruxis117]

Are you proving Mary is the mother of God my mathematical induction.

This is a silly argument. If you go this way, I can say.

Saying something like, since Jesus Is God, and Mary is Mother of Jesus, then Mary is the mother of God.

Well, since Mary is the Mother of God, and the Father is God, then Mary is the mother of the Father. (but wouldn’t this be a heresy).

And since Mary is the Mother of God, and the Holy Spirit is God, then Mary is the mother of the Holy Spirit. (Again heresy).

So this whole thread is flawed unless you are ready to take it to the conclusions I got to by this silly logic.

That’s if you’re uneducated about the Trinity. Jesus is God the Son. Because of several heresies of the time, including the heresy of Nestorianism, during the Council of Ephesus in 431, it was proclaimed that Mary was the Mother of God. That Jesus was fully man and fully God, not Mary giving birth to Jesus’s Human Nature and having the Divine nature separate from Christ.

So, yes, Mary being the Mother of God the Father is a heretical statement, because God the Father has no mother. God has always and will always exist.

This also applies to the Holy Spirit, the Third of the Trinity. However, Jesus, being both fully man and fully divine, did not just magically fall from the sky into the manger. Mary gave birth to him, Mary is his Mother. Jesus is God, King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Jesus is also fully man and fully divine, the Second person of the Trinity.
Therefore, if we are to proclaim that Jesus is Lord, that he is God, then we must easily accept that his mother gave birth to him as both human and God, not just his human nature.

Again, without the proper teaching from the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church, that is “the pillar and bulwark of truth” (1 Timothy 3:15), which the “gates of Hades will not overcome it” (Matthew 16:18), people fall into error.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Christ dies on the Cross in a fully Divine and Human Nature. So upon death what happened to the Human Nature which “is” the composition of the Soul of Jesus Christ?

Where did the Human Nature go? Why, and How do you know?

Now after Christs resurrection he returns to earth several times. Does He ever mention anything, anywhere about a division of human and divine nature? No, nothing like this heresy appears in Bible.

All scripture is written within the proximity of Christs death. Luke is abundantly clear on Mary bearing Jesus, Son of God, Son of Mary, which then makes Mary,Mother of God. Since she “is” the mother of the Son of God. The prophecy of Isaiah fulfilled, and confimed in NT by Matthew and Luke.

As of 2011 the Orthodox Bishop, “Gerhard Ludwig Muller” claims 97% of eccesial unity is complete. You see the movement of the Angelican Church? Also Lutheran Bishop Johannes Friedrich raised the possibility of “ecumenically acceptable spokesman of the world” in Pope Benedict for Christians.

Not sure what this new fringe thinking is called. But its certainly not helping mankind to further divide Christology behind some bizaar concept, argued just for the sake of it.

Where are the facts behind the thinking which coincide with scripture?

 

[Dokimas]

Are those of you go around claiming that Mary is NOT the Mother of God, really ready to come to the only honest conclusion which could possibly come from that: Mary is the Mother of Jesus, but Mary is NOT the Mother of God; therefore, Jesus could NOT be God.

If you believe that Jesus is God, than you Must agree with your entire heart & proclaim that Mary IS the Mother of God!

There’s three types of mothers: one that gave 1/2 genes to the child, one that is the surrogate and one that adopts.

Seeing that God can’t be born (He has no beginning) then Mary could not have given an ovum to create God. Mary is not God’s mother in that sense.

Mary may or may not have ‘given’ an ovum for the Body of Jesus. The Body of Jesus was Human, therefore, either way, Mary is not the mother of God.

That leaves surrogate: okay, Mary was the surrogate mother of Jesus the Son of God the God Man.

 

[benedictus2]

There’s three types of mothers: one that gave 1/2 genes to the child, one that is the surrogate and one that adopts.

Seeing that God can’t be born (He has no beginning) then Mary could not have given an ovum to create God. Mary is not God’s mother in that sense.

Oh yes she did give an ovum. How else do you think Jesus became incarnate. Where do you think Jesus got His divinity from?

While God does not have a beginning, Jesus the God-Man did. The God who became incarnate did have a beginning as an incarnate being because He was not always incarnate.

Mary may or may not have ‘given’ an ovum for the Body of Jesus. The Body of Jesus was Human, therefore, either way, Mary is not the mother of God.

Yes, she is.

I suggest you look up the word mother in a dictionary and tell me why based on the definition she is not mother of God.

If Jesus is God, and we say that Mary is the Mother of Jesus, then Mary is the mother of God. That is a very simple logical syllogism.

That leaves surrogate: okay, Mary was the surrogate mother of Jesus the Son of God the God Man.

No she was not surrogate mother. There was no other human DNA in Jesus than Mary’s.

Did the Angel Gabriel say that she will be the surrogate mother? No, the Angel Gabriel said you will conceive and bear a son.

 

[benedictus2]

I guess I just don’t see how Christ’s divinity is tied to Mary in any way.

Jesus Divinity is not tied to Mary. Whoever said it i was?

What we are saying is that His Divinity and His Humanity are inseparable. He is both at the same time. So when Mary conceived Him then Mary conceived a God-Man. But we don’t refer to Jesus as God-man, we simply call him God.

The Father pronounces Jesus as His Son, His image.

And so He is.

I don’t see how Mary has anything to do with that.

And we don’t either. Mary has nothing to do with His Divinity. But that does not mean she is not mother. Mother’s do not create their children. Mary did not create Jesus either.

The problem with your post is that you seem to think that by saying Mary is Mother of God that somehow Mary is the originator or creator of Jesus. That is not what it means at all.

Mary’s motherhood is like any womans’ motherhood. They conceived, bore for 9 months and gave birth to their children. That is why Mary did.

Just like all ordinary mothers, Mary did not create her Son. God did all that.

 

[Dokimas]

Oh yes she did give an ovum. How else do you think Jesus became incarnate. Where do you think Jesus got His divinity from?

We’ll just have to see when we get to ask God our questions. BTW, there are no genetic tests that tell us anything about the genes of Jesus, are there?

If Jesus is God, and we say that Mary is the Mother of Jesus, then Mary is the mother of God. That is a very simple logical syllogism.

 

[benedictus2]

We’ll just have to see when we get to ask God our questions. BTW, there are no genetic tests that tell us anything about the genes of Jesus, are there?

If you believe that Jesus was fully human then obviously those human genes would have come from human beings. Who else do you have in mind then as mother? Can you give cite a passage in the Bible that gives other candidates?

When we use the term ‘mother’ don’t **we mean something like ‘bringing into existence **someone that did not pre-exist’? Did Jesus pre-exit?

No we don’t. That is not what we mean by mother.

Only God can bring to existence. The mother and father are only the means by which God does this.

Here is a definition of mother: a female person who is pregnant with or gives birth to a child.

Tell me if Mary does not qualify according to that definition with regards her Son who happened to be God.

You wanted me to look up a definition … maybe you could look up the definition for the Greek word “sullambano”.

Here are the definitions.

1. 
   *] to seize, take: one as prisoner
   *] to conceive, of a woman
   1. 
      *] metaph. of lust whose impulses a man indulges
      
      *] to seize for one’s self
      1. 
         *] in a hostile sense, to make (one a permanent) prisoner
         
         *] to take hold together with one, to assist, help, to succour
         
         Now tell me what that has to do with anything.

 

[PRmerger]

When we use the term ‘mother’ don’t we mean something like ‘bringing into existence someone that did not pre-exist’? Did Jesus pre-exit?

Hi, Doki! Welcome back, friend and brother!

Now, are you saying that Mary wasn’t really Jesus’ mother? If so, what do you make of all of the Scripture verses which talk about her being Jesus’ mother?

 

[PRmerger]

Oh yes she did give an ovum. How else do you think Jesus became incarnate. Where do you think Jesus got His divinity from?

Hi, Friend! Just a minor correction? Did you mean “where do you think Jesus got His humanity from”?

I am certain you did!

 

[benedictus2]

Hi, Friend! Just a minor correction? Did you mean “where do you think Jesus got His humanity from”?

I am certain you did!

Woops that is exactly what I mean.

I am putting that down to senility. The grey matter is no longer that grey

Thanks PR.

 

[Rocket_Man]

JL Do you think any of these really understood? If so I have some property in Forida I like to sell you. The apostles didn’t even get most of what Christ taught them before Pentecost.

"And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest."

If you recall, James and John abandoned their father Zebedee’s fishing business to follow the Holy Prophet. I am sure there were many heated discussions in the family regarding their departure and the coming of the Christ, the Son of David who’s Kingdom would be everlasting. Now, we do not know the details of those discussions and I agree that they didn’t know the full revelation, but one thing we do know is that the mother knew there was to be a Kingdom, the fulfillment of the prophecy, and Jesus was the King. Evidently the position of “Queen Mother” hadn’t been elevated in Jewish thought or she wouldn’t had ever asked the question. Nor would had the other disciples who had heard the question felt indignation against James and John knowing the position on the right hand belonged to neither one present but to Jesus’ mother.

 

[Dokimas]

If you believe that Jesus was fully human then obviously those human genes would have come from human beings. Who else do you have in mind then as mother? Can you give cite a passage in the Bible that gives other candidates?

If we humans can do what we can do with genes, don’t you think God could do far more???

No we don’t. That is not what we mean by mother.

Only God can bring to existence. The mother and father are only the means by which God does this.

Sounds like surrogate to me. Thanks.

Here is a definition of mother: a female person who is pregnant with or gives birth to a child.

Sounds like surrogate to me. Thanks.

Tell me if Mary does not qualify according to that definition with regards her Son who happened to be God.

I agreed that Mary was at least a surrogate mother.

 

[Dokimas]

Hi, Doki! Welcome back, friend and brother!

Now, are you saying that Mary wasn’t really Jesus’ mother? If so, what do you make of all of the Scripture verses which talk about her being Jesus’ mother?

Thany you. I was banned for a while for being anti-catholic and for being argumentative. I’m glad to see you see me as your friend. I am NOT anti-catholic. I do stand my ground for what I believe to be true, like many of you here, and if that’s argumentative, I guess I can be.

I’ve agreed Mary was at least the surrogate mother of Jesus. She gave birth to the Human called Jesus.

 

[elvisman]

Thany you. I was banned for a while for being anti-catholic and for being argumentative. I’m glad to see you see me as your friend. I am NOT anti-catholic. I do stand my ground for what I believe to be true, like many of you here, and if that’s argumentative, I guess I can be.

I’ve agreed Mary was at least the surrogate mother of Jesus. She gave birth to the Human called Jesus.

*No - she gave birth to GOD, who was Jesus. She didn’***t give birth to a nature - no mother does.

**As has already been shown ad nauseam - the Hypostatic Union of Jesus’ 2 natures (Fully Human/Fully Divine) cannot be separated. In the early 5th century, the Patriarch of Constantinople, Nestorius tried to proliferate this false teaching but was challenged and defeated in the 1st Council of Ephesus in 431. It was there that the doctrines of the Hypostatic Union (Jesus’ 2 indivisible natures) and Mary, Theotokos (GOD bearer) were declared.

As the “Bible Answer Man” (Hank Hanegraaff) is fond of saying, "Virtually every heresey begins with the misconception of the nature of God."

 

[GaryTaylor]

Really, if in fact Mary didn’t give Birth to both the Divine and Human natures. And God arrives as God through Mary as HIs almighty self. Which is the incessant claim.

Well, why is God in the manger? Why isn’t He talking from day One and Walking? Hows He eating? Whos changing His clothing? Yes now we begin to see the humility God chose to endure. Or you don’t think God did this? So how is it?

Now to realize these two Natures arrive together is also to understand they depart together. Otherwise how do you “assume” it does work?

You have to explain “exactly” how that worked and why. Because if in fact Mary only brings the Human Nature to the equation then this problem exists.

Would love to hear?

 

[PRmerger]

I agreed that Mary was at least a surrogate mother.

I’m not too familiar with Mormon doctrine, but this sounds similar to what I’ve heard Mormons profess.

And, just like the JWs really eschew the concept of the Incarnation, thinking of Mary as a surrogate mother (like the Mormons) helps promote the heresy that it really was not God who came to earth, but a man.

 

[PRmerger]

Thany you. I was banned for a while for being anti-catholic and for being argumentative. I’m glad to see you see me as your friend.

Well, of course! I have a soft spot in my CAFs heart for you.

I’ve agreed Mary was at least the surrogate mother of Jesus. She gave birth to the Human called Jesus.

This is why Muslims, Buddhists, and other non-Christians have a hard time grasping that God could become a man. Because many Christians are unwilling to profess that Jesus was God by proclaiming that Mary was the Mother of God. They see you say, “No, Mary was only the mother of Jesus” which, of course, leads them to think, “Well, who was this Jesus, then? Clearly he wasn’t God!”