If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?

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Originally Posted by Dokimas
Thany you. I was banned for a while for being anti-catholic and for being argumentative. I’m glad to see you see me as your friend. I am NOT anti-catholic. I do stand my ground for what I believe to be true, like many of you here, and if that’s argumentative, I guess I can be.
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I’ve agreed Mary was at least the surrogate mother of Jesus. She gave birth to the Human called Jesus.
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Welcome back Doki! Belssings to you. Doki,now let me get his straight in regards to your last sentence:

She gave birth to the Human called Jesus

Do you believe Mary **only ** gave birth to Jesus humanity? If so,then at what point during his lifetime did Jesus receive,earn,acknowledge He was God? I hope you are aware this a heresyy dating back to the 5th century?

God Bless
 
There’s NOTHING wrong with being a vessel.

NO one can mother God. Jesus, God the Son, always existed so in the sense that mothers pre-exist their children, Mary could not be the mother of God. She was the mother of the human form Jesus took, for sure.
 
elvisman said:
No - she gave birth to GOD, who was Jesus. She* didn’*t give birth to a nature - no mother does.

As has already been shown ad nauseam - the Hypostatic Union of Jesus’ 2 natures (Fully Human/Fully Divine) cannot be separated. In the early 5th century, the Patriarch of Constantinople, Nestorius tried to proliferate this *false *teaching but was challenged and defeated in the 1st Council of Ephesus in 431. It was there that the doctrines of the Hypostatic Union (Jesus’ 2 indivisible natures) and Mary, Theotokos (GOD bearer) were declared.

As the “Bible Answer Man” (Hank Hanegraaff) is fond of saying, "Virtually every heresey begins with the misconception of the nature of God."
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Surrogates give birth to children that are not their children by creation. Mary did not create God so, in that sense, she is not His mother.

I have nothing new to add to this discussion at this time .
 
PRmerger said:
I’m not too familiar with Mormon doctrine, but this sounds similar to what I’ve heard Mormons profess.

And, just like the JWs really eschew the concept of the Incarnation, thinking of Mary as a surrogate mother (like the Mormons) helps promote the heresy that it really was not God who came to earth, but a man.
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Jesus was THE God-Man. Jesus was and is the Creator. No herecy here that I’m aware of.
 
PRmerger said:
Well, of course! I have a soft spot in my CAFs heart for you. ❤️

This is why Muslims, Buddhists, and other non-Christians have a hard time grasping that God could become a man. Because many Christians are unwilling to profess that Jesus was God by proclaiming that Mary was the Mother of God. They see you say, “No, Mary was only the mother of Jesus” which, of course, leads them to think, “Well, who was this Jesus, then? Clearly he wasn’t God!” :eek:
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Jesus was God. End of issue, IMO.
 
Nicea325 said:
Welcome back Doki! Belssings to you. Doki,now let me get his straight in regards to your last sentence:

She gave birth to the Human called Jesus

Do you believe Mary **only ** gave birth to Jesus humanity? If so,then at what point during his lifetime did Jesus receive,earn,acknowledge He was God? I hope you are aware this a heresyy dating back to the 5th century?

God Bless
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IMO, there’s a difference between ‘giving birth’ and being the ‘mother of’. I’ve tried to explain that being the ‘mother of God’ implies pre-existence of God and bring forth someone that never existed.

Jesus God side did not need being born. His Human body did need being born.

Seems we’re using different understandings of terms. Thus we are not really communicating.
 
Call it what you will. You’re welcome to your opinion as am I.

Somethings might not be totally understood till Heaven. I don’t mind waiting. God knows my frame and it’s but dust. He knows my limitations and still called me to Himself. Thank God for His mercy and grace.
 
And your opinion is that your understanding is truth and mine is mis-understanding.
 
Dokimas said:
If we humans can do what we can do with genes, don’t you think God could do far more???
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What I asked was, since you are obviously a Christian who believes in the Bible, where in the Bible does it say that there are other candidates for the Jesus’s mother?

It’s not about what God can and can’t do. It’s about His revelation. I mean, if God so wishes, He could have saved us without becoming incarnate. But becoming incarnate is how He chose to save us. So where does it say in the Bible that there is is even a hint of suggestion that Jesus was conceived and born by any other person?
Sounds like surrogate to me. Thanks.
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Therefore according to your definition all mothers are only surrogate mothers.
Every single woman who conceived are only surrogates.
Sounds like surrogate to me. Thanks.
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Again, according to your definition then, all mothers are only surrogates.

You’d be alone in defining surrogacy in that way.
I agreed that Mary was at least a surrogate mother.
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Again, that means your mother was only a surrogate mother.

Therefore no woman is truly just mother.
 
Dokimas said:
Surrogates give birth to children that are not their children by creation. Mary did not create God so, in that sense, she is not His mother.
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Since no woman creates their children then no woman is a mother, only a surrogate.

So therefore you do not have a mother, only a surrogate.

I suggest you actually study definitions because you are making your own definitions which is not how the wider English speaking world understand those terms.
 
Dokimas said:
And your opinion is that your understanding is truth and mine is mis-understanding.
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That is what this forum is about. Ferreting out the truth.

So far based on what you have written and what we have written, we have proved that yours is a mis-understanding. Mostly to do with a misunderstanding of a simple defintion of the word mother.
 
benedictus2 said:
What I asked was, since you are obviously a Christian who believes in the Bible, where in the Bible does it say that there are other candidates for the Jesus’s mother?
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The Bible does NOT say there’s another candidate for Jesus’s mother. I didn’t say that either.
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Therefore according to your definition all mothers are only surrogate mothers.
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Not true. I said there are at least three categories of mothers, one of which is surrogate.
You’d be alone in defining surrogacy in that way.

Again, that means your mother was only a surrogate mother.

Therefore no woman is truly just mother.
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Was God created in Mary’s womb? If not, and God was in her womb, then it’s logical to use the term surrogate, IMO.
 
benedictus2 said:
Since no woman creates their children then no woman is a mother, only a surrogate.

So therefore you do not have a mother, only a surrogate.

I suggest you actually study definitions because you are making your own definitions which is not how the wider English speaking world understand those terms.
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A woman’s body creates the ovum. If a sperm enters her body, deposited by her husband, and fertilizes that ovum inside her, this mother is not a surrogate.
 
Nobody has the medical reports of Marys Birth far as I know to define this pregnancy.

This is a case of what we do know and don’t know. period. all else is pure speculation.

We know what was before, during and after. Yet no medical centers existed. So much here becomes an attempt to define something in “human” terms which is inadaquate in this case.

What we do know… The Holy Spirit came upon Mary, She gave birth to Jesus Christ of human and divine nature. She really was his Human and Divine Mother. Not just His human Mother. Because there did not exist a “just” human Jesus Christ. There existed a Human and Divine Jesus Christ who Mary is the mother of.

You know what I’m read more here than anything? An inability to understand the Trinity, before, during and after the course of Jesus Christ and the hypostatic union in how this relate’s to the trinity.

Maybe the best thing to do is create another thread in relation to the Trinity. Jesus Christ, and thus Mary.

As far as Mary and the birth of Jesus and the two natures of Divine/Human combined. We know the outcome of the event. Not the specific details. So history is what is the base our knowledge. Not scientific date. None exists. There is only the past, present and future in Biblical terms to contemplate on and thus rationally conclude the “what happened” part of the story.

So what “are” the facts in regard the the Trinity, Holy-Spirit, God, Jesus Christ and Mary?

Follow what I’m saying? We are on a Merry-Go-Around here defining Mary and Christ and the Birth of Jesus without a accurate comprehension of other doctrines such as the hypostatic union, the trinity, thu related to the biblcal reality of Christs life on earth. Also adding our human scientific terms and understanding of human birth really has no place here. The only importance of understanding is that Mary really gave Birth, and the baby was called Jesus the Christ. Thus making Mary, really the mother. So in essense we are constantly and purposely confusing Catholic Doctrine in an effort to distort the reality of Mary. Marys reality is Biblical truth. How the Doctrines apply to this truth becomes another altogether different issue.

Combined in the boiling pot here, we have the Doctrines of the Trinity, the Immaculate Conception, Hypostatic Union, and then Biblical understanding which is not of Catholic Understanding.

How would surrogate even apply here? Surrogate indicates one would know “exactly” how Marys pregnancy worked medically. Does anyone actually know this?

We only know the Holy Spirit came upon/over Mary and she was pregnant. Then she gave Birth. The baby Jesus wasn’t only Divine, He was Human and Divine. These two traits are not seperable, if in fact they are, where does Bible indicate this? On the contrary they are united togther as one. Which did not exist before of Jesus Christ through the Blessed Mother which in truth does make Her the Mother of Jesus Christ? Now is Jesus Christ God? Of course He is, so Mary is the Mother of God.
 
Dokimas said:
Was God created in Mary’s womb? If not, and God was in her womb, then it’s logical to use the term surrogate, IMO.
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Wait a minute… Correct me if I’m wrong; are you actually arguing that Mary was Jesus’ “surrogate mother?” What the heck does that even mean?
 
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