If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?

[Dokimas]

Of course not. But that’s a rather poor strawman. I am not saying that the word Lord meant God, but referred to God. We agree that the word Lord was commonly used to address God. In the same way that we address the King as King. To speak of the ‘Lord God’, we address who he is.

To address Jesus as ‘Lord’ was to say that he was God. No one else was called the Lord, except Jesus, who was the Lord God himself.

Therefore, my previous reply to your statement still stands.

Are any other people in history called lord? If so, are they call lord by those who think they are God? Do those that have the title lord thnk of themselves they are God?

If Jesus is the only person called Lord then you may have a point that I can accept.

 

[Dokimas]

*Hmmmmmmm…!

What has this got to do with the Blessed Virgin Mary?

*

You’ll have to read through the discussion to understand. I’m not interested in going through it all again on this thread. Sorry.

 

[Dokimas]

Exactly! That is why I keep asking you, was there another woman’s ovum involved in the conception of Jesus to make Mary only a surrogate mother. Is there anything in the Bible that suggests this?

Which based on Biblical account and on how God acts in nature is what happened to Mary except that there was no human sperm involved but the Holy Spirit.

This is the same as the one you described above (surrogacy) but viewed from the other woman’s angle.

We don’t know the DNA of Jesus. We don’t know if God used Mary’s ovum. Is it possible that God took an ovum from Eve and a sperm from Adam before the fall and preserved it about 4000 yrs? The zygote from them would have had no sin nature.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

1. Are any other people in history called lord?
2. If so, are they call lord by those who think they are God?
3. Do those that have the title lord thnk of themselves they are God?
4. If Jesus is the only person called Lord then you may have a point that I can accept.

1. Yes
2. Hopefully not
3. Probably a few.
4. Jesus is not the only person called “Lord”. But it is the only time it is being to referred literally to God.

 

[Dokimas]

Mental gymnastics aside, what do you think Elizabeth meant when she referred to the Child in Mary’s womb as my Lord?

Are you saying that the Child in Mary’s womb was not God? That Elizabeth meant something else?

I think I’ve made it clear that I believe Jesus is God. Mary carried Jesus and gave birth to Him.

 

[Dokimas]

**It’s no **opinion about your belief. It is a dead-on observation.
You are espousing a bizarre belief, the like of which I have never heard before from ANY Christian, Catholic or Protestant.

Secondly, nobody is "clobbering" you for your opposing belief.
What I would like to know - but I won’t hold my breath for - is WHERE you came about this belief that Mary was a “surrogate mother”. I’d like to know which church, theologian, preacher or Church father taught you this belief.

Finally, Doki - it’s ALWAYS heresey when somebody tries to divide Christ’s 2 indivisible natures. This was the case with ALL of the early heresies. Virtually EVERY heresy begins with the miscponception of the nature of God.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Nothing wrong about being dogmatic about Truth. The problem is with being dogmatic about something that is only part truth or not truth at all. Sometimes we need to be careful what we are dogmatic about.

Agreed. The dogma of “Mother of God” is fully Truth.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I believe ‘lord’ is a term given to rulers, people of high authority.

John, in Elizabeth, no doubt knew Jesus was special. Jesus said John was Elijah, who never died. If John is who Jesus said he was, God, somehow put Elijah into the womb of Elizabeth.

And you know what, this is a valid arguement. But whats needed to validate it, is a working hypothesis with an analogy of how this would work in the Birth of Jesus Christ with God, and Marys birth in regards to Luke?

The arguement in this regard always relates back to Thomas Aquinas and his theory which relates Bible to the Prophets then further expands and relates that to our Earth and life. Which is essense forms a logical explaination.

And it would go something like this. If a River of Fresh Water {God} then emptys into the Ocean {mankind} would the Ocean still hold a pure fresh water? Its impossible because it then is a combination of the two natures. Which in effect is what the CC is talking about with the Hypostatic Union of Divine and Human. So in essense a working theory compliments Bible.

I mean hey. I am willing to listen to logic. but not because someone simply says it is. There must be a working Philosophy which in fact correlates with Bible and the Prophets. Well the Prophets in the Bible, which then prove your point.

Thread after thread we hear what people don’t “think” is true. With no sound theory produced to show otherwise what they do believe is true?

 

[GreggAlvarez]

I think I’ve made it clear that I believe Jesus is God. Mary carried Jesus and gave birth to Him.

Therefore, Mary is His Mother.

 

[Dokimas]

Who said anything about reincarnation? Elijah never died. If humans can clone, what makes us think God’s ability can’t far surpass anything we can do.

BTW, I have NO clue exactly what God did or how. I’ve just been sharing some thoughts I’ve had.

 

[Nicea325]

IMO, there’s a difference between ‘giving birth’ and being the ‘mother of’. I’ve tried to explain that being the ‘mother of God’ implies pre-existence of God and bring forth someone that never existed.

Jesus God side did not need being born. His Human body did need being born.

Seems we’re using different understandings of terms. Thus we are not really communicating.

Actually my friend,Mary did give birth to the 2nd person of the Trinity:Jesus who is God. Jesus is both 100% man and 100% divine,logically Mary is the ‘mother of’ God. One cannot say: Mary is only the mother of the human Jesus,but not His divinity. It is heresy to divide His two natures. I know this may be difficult to understand or comprehend,but at times it is the cause of many heresies.

God Bless my friend.

 

[Dokimas]

Agreed. The dogma of “Mother of God” is fully Truth.

How do you know?

You should be careful when you answer. IMO, you should not quote a source that claims to be the speaking group for God. That would be kind of circular reasoning, wouldn’t it be?

 

[GaryTaylor]

How do you know?

Because we have “working theory” which correlates to Bible? What do you have to prove your point?

 

[Dokimas]

Because we have “working theory” which correlates to Bible? What do you have to prove your point?

I added to my question. Sorry about that.

If the Bible says Mary gave birth to God, with all it’s implications, then I’d have to believe it. I’ve not found such a verse so I answer the question as I have.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Wrong conclusion as to what I believe. Jesus DID have a HUMAN nature, yet without sin. His Body was HUMAN. (no herecy here, my friend)

So, HE was not human then just His Body. So, then “The Word was NOT made flesh”.

That makes no sense with “the Word was made flesh.” His divinity and humanity ARE INSEPARABLE!!! The only way you can get out of “Mother of God” is if you separate His divinity from His humanity OR you do not believe in His divinity. No way around it.

Mary is the Mother of “The Word made Flesh”. “The Word made flesh” is God. Therefore Mary is Mother of God.

In any case, I will grant that His humanity is His Body just for the sake of argument. In your idea, anybody baptized is “in Christ” according to an interpretation of Romans 6 and therefore, all baptized Christians are in Christ’s Body. Christ’s Body as explained in 2 Corinthians. BUT, you also say that Mary is only the Mother of His humanity (whatever that means). His humanity is His Body. Therefore, Mary is your Mother too. But I have never seen Her called that outside the Church.

Mary is more important than you think.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Actually my friend,Mary did give birth to the 2nd person of the Trinity:Jesus who is God. Jesus is both 100% man and 100% divine,logically Mary is the ‘mother of’ God. One cannot say: Mary is only the mother of the human Jesus,but not His divinity. It is heresy to divide His two natures. I know this may be difficult to understand or comprehend,but at times it is the cause of many heresies.

God Bless my friend.

This is right,

Anyway I could stamp my feet on the ground and say earth is the result of two Gods at war. An that Earth wasn’t made perfect but by accident. And in fact God actually lives in another Universe because this one is defective as we see by Katrina etc. Nothing perfect about this world.

But you see its talk with no facts or a working Theory to back it up.

No different than the Big Bang. How do we know there went 10 Big Bangs? Maybe 200. It becomes speculation with no sound basis.

 

[Dokimas]

Not true. I did NOT say the other way is impossible with God, did I? I did say that your understanding and my understanding are opinions that may or may not, in whole or in part line up with God’s opinion. God’s opinion is always TRUE, so true is sounds silly to call it His opinion.

 

[Dokimas]

So, HE was not human then just His Body. So, then “The Word was NOT made flesh”.

That makes no sense with “the Word was made flesh.” His divinity and humanity ARE INSEPARABLE!!! The only way you can get out of “Mother of God” is if you separate His divinity from His humanity OR you do not believe in His divinity. No way around it.

Mary is the Mother of “The Word made Flesh”. “The Word made flesh” is God. Therefore Mary is Mother of God.

In any case, I will grant that His humanity is His Body just for the sake of argument. In your idea, anybody baptized is “in Christ” according to an interpretation of Romans 6 and therefore, all baptized Christians are in Christ’s Body. Christ’s Body as explained in 2 Corinthians. BUT, you also say that Mary is only the Mother of His humanity (whatever that means). His humanity is His Body. Therefore, Mary is your Mother too. But I have never seen Her called that outside the Church.

Mary is more important than you think.

I’m not smart enough to understand how Jesus is God and Man. I just know He is.

Time for me to move on from this topic for today. In the past I’ve gotten concumed with threads. I don’t want this to concume my mind any more. Maybe I’ll pick this up tomorrow.

God bless all.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Not true. I did NOT say the other way is impossible with God, did I? I did say that your understanding and my understanding are opinions that may or may not, in whole or in part line up with God’s opinion. God’s opinion is always TRUE, so true is sounds silly to call it His opinion.

My brother, I understand you have a different thought here? But what is the “opinion” based on?

In other words are you even open to the fact that its based on flawed logic? Skeptical Philosophy proves it incorrect immediatly.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

How do you know?

You should be careful when you answer. IMO, you should not quote a source that claims to be the speaking group for God. That would be kind of circular reasoning, wouldn’t it be?

That would be if I was doing it. But, I am not. I can think for my own you know. As a matter of fact. You have yet to bring a reasonable argument that does not involve separating His divinity from His humanity.

And I am VERY careful when I post answers. I was an atheist. I am too objective for my own good. It takes away from my spirituality. St. Edith Stein is helping me out with that.

But, how do I know? You ask. Simple…

Mary is Mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God.
Mary is Mother of God.

Simple enough? Or are you going to change our definition of Mother and separate His humanity from His divinity in order to win a losing argument?

Just be Catholic. No contradictions allowed. There is big sign. It is called “The Cross”. Although, itself is a sign of contradiction, it is NOT itself a contradiction.