If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?

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There it is, and its fine to have a different opinion, and I certainly wouldn’t want to deter anyone from thinking out loud here to find the truth. Hey, its your thinking and your feelings. Nothing funny or foolish about it. Don’t let your anger, fustration, or other feelings hold you from finding the Truth though. You owe that to yourself. Confront your own thinking and challenge it.

If you can’t expose your actual thinking for what it is, or how you arrive at your theory, then put it under scrutiny? How can you ever know if its wrong or right? Your condemned to your own thinking!

Your theory has to be rooted in Scripture as Benedictus2, Cinette, Elvis, PRmerger and everyone else has been contantly suggesting on this thread.

Otherwise its opinion’s, boldly proclaimed, often well written, yet never confronted.

Its confront, “challenge”. then change. Not confront and change because ya said so.🤷 And that can only happen based in Scripture.

Like Miltons Lost Paradise, brilliant but flawed.

For example…Why would satan say…“If thou be the Son of God, command these stones be made bread”? I suggest to you that satan see’s the Humanity, what he doesn’t automatically see is the Divinity. “if thou be the Son of God”

Now In “Job” satan knows immediatley who God is. The conversation leaves no doubt.
My guess this is to me. If so, thanks for your concern. I hope you all follow this pretty sound advice for yourselves, not that I have any reason to think otherwise.
 
I’m under the impression that the CC has teachings not in the Bible but have been passed down through sacred tradition and that the magisterium can speak doctrine that is not covered in the Bible. Am I wrong?
You are correct. And one example of this is the canon (or list of inspired books) of Scripture. This was passed down through Sacred Tradition, and was not in the Bible, Doki.
 
You are correct. And one example of this is the canon (or list of inspired books) of Scripture. This was passed down through Sacred Tradition, and was not in the Bible, Doki.
PR,
He was right, BUT the way he said it leaves WAY too much room for non-Catholic assumptions, ESPECIALLY the “not covered in the Bible” part!

Just saying… 🙂

God bless
 
PR,
He was right, BUT the way he said it leaves WAY too much room for non-Catholic assumptions, ESPECIALLY the “not covered in the Bible” part!

Just saying… 🙂

God bless
Indeed.

I think Doki sees that in accepting the canon of Scripture, discerned for him by the CC, he accepts Sacred Tradition.

I don’t know if he’ll admit it here, but he does know it intellectually now. 🤷
 
I’m under the impression that the CC has teachings not in the Bible but have been passed down through sacred tradition and that the magisterium can speak doctrine that is not covered in the Bible. Am I wrong?
Sure. Although the necessity of the Baptism of infants is implied in Scripture (
**Acts 10:1-49, 11:13-14, ****Acts 16:23-24, 1 Cor. 1:16), it is not explicitly taught. However - it is taught by virtually all of the Early Church Fathers more explicitly.

**By the same token, I don’**t see the following Protestant traditions being taught in Scripture:
Altar calls
Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
The Sinner’s Prayer
Individual Interpretation of Holy Scripture
Baptism by Immersion Only
 
I’m under the impression that the CC has teachings not in the Bible but have been passed down through sacred tradition and that the magisterium can speak doctrine that is not covered in the Bible. Am I wrong?
They are teachings that are not explicitly set out in the Bible but are supportable by the Bible.

And the Church can proclaim these extra Biblical teachings because she after all is the one that came up with the Bible. If she has the authority to determine the Bible then she has the authority to determine these extra Biblical teachings.

So yes, it all boils down to authority.
 
HAIL MARY FULL OF GRACE!!! Mary IS the mother of God!!! God bless Mother MARY!!!
 
The Greek word for, "Lord" used by Elizabeth in Luke 1:43 is kurios, which usually means “God”.
κυριου noun - genitive singular masculine
kurios koo’-ree-os: supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title) – God, Lord, master, Sir.

**However, Elizabeth and Mary didn’t **speak Greek, the language of commerce in 1st century Palestine and the surrounding areas. They spoke ARAMAIC. You HAVE to get beyond the Greek to truly understand what was being said in Scripture.

What Elizabeth would have said to Mary in Aramaic was "MarYah”, which is the Aramaic for “LORD JHVH” (Yaweh). She would have asked:
"And how does this happen to me, that the mother of "MarYah” should come to me?"

In this passage - she was asking how the mother of GOD should come to her.
Any questions . . . ?
Not so. Just one scripture in Hebrew OT that contradicts what you are claiming.

Ps.110:1 “The LORD (Adonai) said to** my Lord (Adoni), **sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies your footstool”.

Adonai refers to God Almighty, Adoni refers to someone else with authority. In this scripture God the Father (Adonai) is speaking to His Son, our Lord (Adoni) Jesus Christ.
 
I look at the Ecumenical Councils in a very, very different way. Those who participated in the early councils attended not to propose a new theory. But to examine more often than not, what proved to be heretical theory.

Athanasius, Pope of Alexandria, alone is a perfect example, excommunicated, exiled and then willing to be martyred if need be to uphold the theory of Human and Divine natures of Christ. Which he correctly arrived at from the Gospel of John. Then as heretical thinking grew, the councils had no choice but to conviene. Ultimately Athanasius theory was accepted and Thomas Aquinas in the 13th correctly elaborated on most of the Ecumenical Council issues which remained vague. Such as the Human/Divine Natures, Trinity etc.

Its no different today. Today, there are some buffers, such as CAF. But look how quickly a heretical theory will arrise, and will date back to 1st, 2nd and 3rd centurys?

The old saying, The further you look back in the past, the further you’ll see into the future", definately applys.

The fact is Theologians such as Ignatius of Antioch, Iranaeus, Bishop of Lyons, etc were the next generation after the Apostles. They continued what was in fact the truth, then as a bit more time passed the heresy would creep in and had to be fought in the Councils. What was often just accepted as Faith/Bible and understood but not clearly defined, then continued to be defined and elaborated on.

Example of Mary as intercessor for mankind date’s easliy back to Jerome. And believe it or not Protestants right in 1906 were singing hymns for Marys Intercession throughout the USA from there Pews. Just google John A Rileys hymn “Ye watchers and Ye Holy Ones” for a history lesson, see how it went below. And btw, this wasn’t sang in Catholic or Orthodox Churchs. But Marys intercession is actually in the Lithurgy of the Eastern church, "Lithurgy of Saint Basil? “Lithurgy of Saint John Chysostom” which is facinatating in itself since the Eastern Church seems to think we at the CC alone uphold Marys Intercession power over mankind. It becomes a fundemental lack of understanding one’s own roots and belief system. And thus personal history being lost.

So what we should automatically accept some 2011 thinking? If in fact that would be the case the Quran on Mary wouldn’t be so heretical now would it? Altered Bible to fit ones own concept of Religion becomes no religion. Look at the Quran right next to Luke? The Annunciation is stolen and then butchered right out of the Bible. High School students can identify the correlation.

But the Protestant Hymn…All Baptist Churchs definatly recited this from the pews.

O higher than the Cherubim

More Glorious than the Seraphim

Lead their praise’s, Alleluia

The bearer of the eternal word

Most Gracious.

Magnify the Lord. Allehia!!! And that my friends is Protestant not Catholic. So who “lost” the truth here?:confused:

And if we correctly interpret “Theotokos” …My soul magnifys the Lord, the one who being the Theotokos, was the bearer of the eternal Word of God, the Logos made Flesh in Mother Mary, Mother of the Lord. according to the …Bible and the Gospel of Luke and John.

And “Theotokos” though very old, was “not” the first definition of Mary. As a matter of fact it was accepted as the result of St Pauls preaching and a riot occuring when Pagans insisted on Theotokos as a result of the Goddess Diana being replaced.

Just Sayin:shrug:
 
Not so. Just one scripture in Hebrew OT that contradicts what you are claiming.

Ps.110:1 “The LORD (Adonai) said to** my Lord (Adoni), **sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies your footstool”.

Adonai refers to God Almighty, Adoni refers to someone else with authority. In this scripture God the Father (Adonai) is speaking to His Son, our Lord (Adoni) Jesus Christ.
WRONG.
You say this as somebody who apparently doesn’t understand Jesus’ TWO natures.**

First of all - Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. This is what is lknown as the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union.

**Jesus constantly referred to himself as the “Son of Man” - yet saying that he and the Father were ONE at the same time to illustrate this mystery. This is why the use of the word "Adoni" in the Psalm - NOT because it was speaking of somebody lesser than God. Adoni is usually reserved for a human - which Jesus was.

If Elizabeth WASN’T referring to God - who was she referring to? Her
boss
?**
 
WRONG.
You say this as somebody who apparently doesn’t** understand Jesus’ TWO natures.

First of all - Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. This is what is lknown as the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union.

**Jesus *constantly ***referred to himself as the “Son of Man” - yet saying that he and the Father were ONE at the same time to illustrate this mystery. This is why the use of the word "Adoni" in the Psalm - NOT because it was speaking of somebody lesser than God. Adoni is usually reserved for a human - which Jesus was.

**If Elizabeth WASN’T referring to God - who was she referring to? Her boss?
Yes, obviously in the same way that David referred to the Messiah, as ‘my Lord’, or my master in Ps. 110:1. And as Jesus himself said of himself : ‘No disciple is greater than **his master’. **
 
Sure. Although the necessity of the Baptism of infants is* implied* in Scripture (
**Acts 10:1-49, 11:13-14, **Acts 16:23-24, 1 Cor. 1:16), it is not explicitly taught. However - it is taught by virtually all of the Early Church Fathers more explicitly.

**By the same token, I don’**t see the following Protestant traditions being taught in Scripture:
Altar calls
Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
The Sinner’s Prayer
Individual Interpretation of Holy Scripture
Baptism by Immersion Only
Many of the above are implied.

As for ‘individual interpretation’ is a new one to me. I know of NO non-catholic Christian that believes this. If any non-catholic Christian is reading this, do you believe in ‘individual interpretation’?

As for infant baptism, as we’ve discussed before, you may read that into the Bible but, IMO, you have a VERY weak case for it.
 
They are teachings that are not explicitly set out in the Bible but are supportable by the Bible.

And the Church can proclaim these extra Biblical teachings because she after all is the one that came up with the Bible. If she has the authority to determine the Bible then she has the authority to determine these extra Biblical teachings.

So yes, it all boils down to authority.
The CC didn’t come up with the Bible. The letters were written as inspired by the Holy Spirit and preserved by Him. The CC was an instrument the Holy Spirit used to put it together. ALL the glory goes to the Holy Spirit.

The Bible is not for private interpretation, even by any church. The interpretation of the Bible is up to the Holy Spirit ONLY.
 
Yes, obviously in the same way that David referred to the Messiah, as ‘my Lord’, or my master in Ps. 110:1. And as Jesus himself said of himself : ‘No disciple is greater than **his master’. **
Jesus, the Son, always subjected himself to the Father. Remember - the Holy Trinity consists of three distinct persons - each with his own function, unified in the Triune Godhead. Each one of those Persons is God.**

That is why we can say that Mary is the Mother of God - and Elizabeth knew this because of the Holy Spirit.
 
The CC didn’t come up with the Bible. The letters were written as inspired by the Holy Spirit and preserved by Him. The CC was an instrument the Holy Spirit used to put it together. ALL the glory goes to the Holy Spirit.

The Bible is not for private interpretation, even by any church. The interpretation of the Bible is up to the Holy Spirit ONLY.
Then why does every Protestant denomination interpret it differently?
Is the Holy Spirit confused or is he just playing a practical joke?
 
Many of the above are implied.

As for ‘individual interpretation’ is a new one to me. I know of NO non-catholic Christian that believes this. If any non-catholic Christian is reading this, do you believe in ‘individual interpretation’?

As for infant baptism, as we’ve discussed before, you may read that into the Bible but, IMO, you have a VERY weak case for it.
That’s precisely my point. Whether I can present a Biblical case or not - the question was asked about which Apostolic Traditions do we still practice that were not explicitly in the Bible.**

As for individual interpretation - EVERY Protestant denomination interprets Scripture in their OWN way. THAT’S ewhy we have so many denominations.

I have debated with MANY Protestants on this forum about this very topic and they ALL said that the Holy Spirit guides them to their OWN interpretation - and that they’re ALL correct!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
Many of the above are implied.
As for ‘individual interpretation’ is a new one to me. I know of NO non-catholic Christian that believes this. If any non-catholic Christian is reading this, do you believe in ‘individual interpretation’?
As for infant baptism, as we’ve discussed before, you may read that into the Bible but, IMO, you have a VERY weak case for it.
Actually my friend those who are against infant have a much weaker case. I have asked tons of non-catholics against infant baptism to show us at what point in time in Jewish history did the Jews not consider infants as part of the household? Remember Paul baptized households and does not provide ages.

Secondly,no where in scripture —not even once—find an example of a child raised in a Christian home who is baptized only upon making a “decision for Christ.”
 
Then why does every Protestant denomination interpret it differently?
Is the Holy Spirit confused or is he just playing a practical joke?
I can’t answer your question because you have not given the correct option in your list of questions.

BTW, there’s a difference between interpretation and understanding. There’s on interpretation and different understandings, one of which is correct. NO ONE has a corner on all the correct understandings, NO ONE or NO church.
 
That’s precisely** my point. Whether I can present a Biblical case or not - the question was asked about which Apostolic Traditions do we still practice that were not explicitly in the Bible.

As for individual interpretation - EVERY Protestant denomination interprets Scripture in their OWN way. THAT’S ewhy we have so many denominations.

I have debated with MANY Protestants on this forum about this very topic and they ALL said that the Holy Spirit guides them to their OWN interpretation - and that they’re ALL correct!!
Let’s be honest, the CC has her own interpretations (understandings), many correct and some not correct, which is NO different from any other Christian church.

Did the Holy Spirit lead the CC to all her understandings? If so, then your answer about your church is the same as those you’ve debated. :eek:
 
Actually my friend those who are against infant have a much weaker case. I have asked tons of non-catholics against infant baptism to show us at what point in time in Jewish history did the Jews not consider infants as part of the household? Remember Paul baptized households and does not provide ages.

Secondly,no where in scripture —not even once—find an example of a child raised in a Christian home who is baptized only upon making a “decision for Christ.”
As I’ve pointed out before, of the thousands and thousands of baptisms of the New Testament, only 5 households were baptized (this number’s been supplied by a catholic on this forum). As you know, not all families have infants all the time. Right now, in my family, there are no infants. The youngest is almost 30 yrs old. It include family extensios of 7 different families.

Infant baptism would make more sense if hundreds of families were mentioned as being baptized. The odds are very, very small that infants were in those 5 families at the time of their baptism. This is my opinion.

If my memory serves me correctly, belief and repentence are always a part of baptism. Infants can’t believe or repent.

Is there any recording of children growing up in Christians homes in the Bible?
 
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