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elvisman
Guest
Then Jesus was a liar because he promised his Church that the Holy Spirit would guide it to ALL truth (John 16:12-15).
**Is that what you’re saying?
If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?
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**Is that what you’re saying?
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elvisman
Guest
**It IS different than the rest because it is the ONLY one established by Christ. Not only is that proven by history and Scripture - *most *Protestant theologians will concede that point. They say that the Catholic Church went off the tracks in the first few centuries and a small remnant of faithful remained. However, this cannot be proven by history.Let’s be honest, the CC has her own interpretations (understandings), many correct and some not correct, which is NO different from any other Christian church.
Did the Holy Spirit lead the CC to all her understandings? If so, then your answer about your church is the same as those you’ve debated.
**Yours and ALL of the other Protestant denominations were started by men and women who were as flawed and sinful as you or I - not by Christ himself.
**
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elvisman
Guest
**So, you *honestly *believe that the Bible tells us EVERYTHING that happened in the 1st Century Church? That is presposterous. It gives us but a small glimpse of the Early Church. **
That’s why Paul admonished the Thessalonians to hold fast to the ORAL - as well as the written traditions they passed on (2 Thess. 2:15).
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zarthan
Guest
You are presuming to know what Elizabeth knew by the Holy Spirit. It is more likely that she was calling the babe in Mary’s womb, ‘my Lord’ because like all of Israel they were waiting for the anointed one of God. They were waiting for the promised Messiah who would be their Lord-ruler over Israel, their king.
Even the apostle Peter knew by the Holy Spirit that much. “Therefore let the whole house of Israel know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified.” (Acts 2:36).
Was not Jesus Messiah and Lord before his resurrection from the dead? Yes, but not in reality. First, Jesus Christ had to defeat sin and death. The Son of God was not yet perfect. The Son of God became perfect through obedience to his Father. “Though being a Son, he learned obedience from what he suffered; and when he was made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.”(Heb.5:8-9)
Ps.110 is quoted probably more than any other OT scripture by the pre-Nicene church fathers? Why? Because Jesus Christ did not become an anointed high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek until his soul was raised from the death of Sheol and his body was raised incorruptible from the grave. (Acts2:24-32, Acts 13:33 and Heb. 5:5-6).
At the same time that Jesus became the anointed High Priest forever, he also was given sovereign Lord-rule over all. **"**Take your throne at my right hand, while I make your enemies your footstool."****Ps. 110:2. This scripture Peter refers to in Acts 2:32-33: "God raised this Jesus; of this we are witnesses. Exalted at the right hand of God."
When the Son of God became perfect through his suffering obedience in defeating sin and death, he then became the Father’s Lord-ruler over all, and the Father’s Messiah high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. Whether Elizabeth by the Holy Spirit knew that her Lord would defeat sin and death is conjecture, but it is also conjecture to assume that she was expecting God and not the Messiah King.
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Cinette
Guest
*A couple of years ago I look a family to the Synagogue as they did not have transport and I stayed for the service. I was disappointed at the speed at which they read from the Holy Book and prayed but the word Adonai reverberated in my mind - it is so beautiful… *
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Dokimas
Guest
You guys love to jump to ‘then Jesus is a liar’ thing. As usual, you are leaving out the correct option so I can’t answer your question. I’ll gladly respond when you give me the correct question.
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Dokimas
Guest
You are consistant and comes from the same presupposition. I happen to have a different presupposition so we are not in agreement on issues that you think are so important.
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Dokimas
Guest
I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t put words in my mouth. Of course the Bible doesn’t record everything and tells us so through John as He told us Jesus did MUCH more than is recorded. However, I was responding to the idea that the Bible well establishes infant baptism. Seems your comment are a contradiction to this particular issue.
Paul never told anyone to follow traditions that aren’t accurate. I’m not making any specific statement, I’m just responding to your comment so don’t assume I’m implying anything, please.
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Cinette
Guest
*Baptism replaced circumcision which usually took place a few days after birth. So why do Protestants say that they do not believe in infant baptism. Circumcision took place on very young infants!
At what point did this change - from infant to “older” persons? Where is that in the Bible?
Cinette
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zarthan
Guest
It was good of you to do that for the Jewish family. When the “Shema” is chanted in Hebrew there is the awe of God’s presence in these words of scripture. (Deut. 6:4-9).
These words are repeated by Jesus in the gospels.
jewfaq.org/prayer/shema.htm
Shalom.
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PRmerger
Guest
Catholics don’t follow any traditions that aren’t “accurate”, Doki.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Christ, as John states in his Gospel, The Word become Flesh…OK, so… Yet we still have Christs words on the Cross. Which clearly show there was a moment of unclarity in Christ being condemned to His Human Nature…
Matthew 27:46- tells us that about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Here, Jesus was expressing His feelings of abandonment as God placed the sins of the world on Him – and because of that, God had to “turn away” from Jesus. As Jesus was feeling that weight of sin, He was experiencing a separation from God for the only time in all of eternity. This was also a fulfillment of the prophetic statement in Psalm 22:1.
Then, Psalm…My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
Then in the Wedding of Cana, “My TIME has NOT yet come” Christs “time” is on the Cross, the moment mankind returns from its mortality through sin, to immortality only by consecration to God in His Mystical Body at the Catholic Church. The only path to Christ/God.
Which of course we know by the Gospel of Matthew.
While Christ is fully Divine, He is also fully Human and He continues this after the Cross in the Trinity.
Jesus- two natures, human and divine, are inseparable. Jesus will forever be the God-man, fully God and fully human, two distinct natures in one Person. Jesus’ humanity and divinity are not mixed, but are united without loss of separate identity. Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6, 19:28) and other times in the power of His deity (John 11:43; Matthew 14:18-21). In both, Jesus’ actions were from His one Person. Jesus had two natures, but only one personality
Jesus is both God and man. Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary, “Mother of Lord” as Luke states. Jesus became a human being in order to identify with us in our struggles (Hebrews 2:17) and, more importantly, so that He could die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins (Philippians 2:5-11). In summary, the hypostatic union teaches that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that there is no mixture or dilution of either nature, and that He is one united Person, forever.
Galatians 4:4
But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law.
However, denying a physical connection between Mary and Jesus would imply that Jesus was not truly human. Scripture teaches that Jesus was fully human, with a physical body like ours. This He received from Mary. At the same time, Jesus was fully God, with an eternal, sinless nature (John 1:14; 1 Timothy 3:16; Hebrews 2:14-17.)
Timothy 3:16
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body,
was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.
Hebrews 2:14–17
Since the children have flesh and blood, Christ too shared in their humanity so that by His death He might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16 For surely it is not angels.
Luke wrote as a witness to the events as told to him by Mary. The following Gospels are to clarily specific points. As John does when he starts his Gospel chapter one.
“And the Word was Flesh” Word “God”, Flesh “Christ” One was of the other, and the same, to create a Human and Divine Nature, Not two seperate Natures in One, But two Natures completely combined as one.
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Dokimas
Guest
… but those of us who are non-catholic Christians do???
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elvisman
Guest
WRONG.
I alreadsy showed Dokimas the linguistic proof back in post #356 (which he completely ignored, as usual), Lord means GOD here.
The Greek word for, “Lord” used by Elizabeth in Luke 1:43 is kurios, which usually means “God”.
κυριου noun - genitive singular masculine
kurios koo’-ree-os: supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title) – God, Lord, master, Sir.
However, Elizabeth and Mary didn’t speak Greek, the language of commerce in 1st century Palestine and the surrounding areas. They spoke ARAMAIC. You HAVE to get beyond the Greek to truly understand what was being said in Scripture.
What Elizabeth would have said to Mary in Aramaic was "MarYah”, which is the Aramaic for “LORD JHVH” (Yaweh - GOD). She would have asked:
"And how does this happen to me, that the mother of "MarYah” should come to me?"
In this passage - she was asking how the mother of GOD should come to her.
As for your comment that Jesus was not perfect before he came down to earth - that is BLASPHEMY, my friend. He is the 2nd Person in the Holy Trinity and is GOD. Being the eternal God - Jesus was slain before the foundations of the world (Rev. 13:8).
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elvisman
Guest
**Yup - I gave you a laundry list of them on another thread. **
They include altar calls, the sinner’s prayer, immersion only Baptism, denial of the Trinity, Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, etc. - NONE of which are Biblical.
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elvisman
Guest
Cop-out.
Jesus ONLY spoke truth - nothing else.
Either you believe him to be true or he is a liar.
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elvisman
Guest
And what would that presupposition be?
You keep referring to my presuppositions but you don’t elaborate.
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elvisman
Guest
**I never said on this thread that infant baptism was explicitly taught in Scripture. In fact, I said that it was implied.
As for accurate traditions - we DO follow those Apostolic Traditions that were carried down by the Fathers and written about by them. It is the Protestant denominations that follow the traditions and precepts of mere men that Jesus warned against. I gave you a list in post 455.
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solorio
Guest
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Debt Consolidation Advice
Debt Consolidation Advice
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zarthan
Guest
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