If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?

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agapewarrior said:
Well… I stumbled upon this thread and I don’t think of myself as particularly great of understanding. I’m not a genius, but it’s rather obvious that Mary did indeed give birth to Jesus Christ. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Then the word became flesh and dwelt among us. That’s easy enough to understand that Mary was the woman who was entrusted with the delivery of our Lord and saviour. However, I believe that the significance ends there.
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So in your mind it goes like this. God says, okay, you’ve done what I needed you for so out of my way.
Mary is not the saviour,
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And which Catholic doctrine ever said she is?
nor is she God,
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And which Catholic doctrine ever said she is?
nor did she desire to be anything more than a good godly woman.
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And which Catholic doctrine ever said she desired more than that. Scripture is very clear, all she wanted was to do God’s will.
I have no doubt in my mind that her humbleness would have her rather ashamed at the focus that has been devoted to her instead of the true saviour of our faith.
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Aaah, but the focus that is directed to her points to Jesus the saviour. Honoring Mary does not detract from the worship given to Jesus.

As a matter of fact we are only doing what Jesus wanted us to do - to follow Him.
He was the first one to honor this magnum opus of God, we are only imitating Him in this respect.
When examining our faith, doctrine, and history, all too often we allow ourselves to lose sight of God’s goodness and love for all of us.
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How did you come to that conclusion. I don’t see that at all.
As I said before, I’m not a genius, but these facts seem very plain to me.
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I am not quite sure which facts you are talking about. You have not mentioned any. You have stated opinion but facts was rather lacking.
 
rev_kevin said:
Ya I know that. My point is that the word Lord has more meanings than just God.
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Which, as I have said before maybe true, but what we are trying to determine here is what that word meant for Elizabeth when she referred to Mary as the Mother of her Lord.

Since when she said this she was 'filled" with the Holy Spirit, could she have meant any one other than God.
 
Cinette said:
*Context, my dear fellow, context!

Ever heard of the word?
🙂
*
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Hmmm lets see context, Hmmmm sounds like some kind of book for con’s.

I don’t know if you read the posts but if you have you have seemed to miss the part where I said…well read the posts and you’ll find out.

Context-noun
  1. the part of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage, usually influenceing it’s meaning or effect.
  2. the set of circumstances of facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc.
  3. mycology, the fleshy fibrous body of the pileus in mushrooms.
    ORIGIN
    1357-1425; late ME <L contextus a joining together, scheme, structure equiv. to context (ere) to join by weaving (co- con-+ texere to plait, wave) ± tus suffix of V. action; cf. text.
Lets try to be a bit mor Christian like. 😉
 
Dokimas said:
I’d say yes; that’s why I don’t think Elizabeth was calling Jesus God when she called Him Lord.
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Well if you are agreeing that Elizabeth meant Lord God (as opposed to Lord man) then therefore you are saying she is aware that Jesus was God.
 
benedictus2 said:
Which, as I have said before maybe true, but what we are trying to determine here is what that word meant for Elizabeth when she referred to Mary as the Mother of her Lord.

Since when she said this she was 'filled" with the Holy Spirit, could she have meant any one other than God.
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You and I know it meant God but did she really know that it did. Remember she is human and even if the HS tells her to do something don’t mean she knows what it meant. She is fallible not infallible. She’s not the “Pope.”
 
adrift said:
For thirty years she lived with Jesus. At the wedding at Cana she asked for His help. She told the waiters to do what he tells you. What do you think she expected? Do you really believe that in those thirty years she didn’t know who Jesus was? Doesn’t her request at the wedding indicate differently?
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OOps. no Mary knew that Jesus was God.

Elizabeth knew through the inspiration of the Holy Spirity.
 
Dokimas said:
I believe I gave the Greek word and it’s meaning at least once to show what I think. Would you like me to post it again?

Prophets made statements often in the OT and they did not know what they meant.
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Are you saying she said my Lord without knowing my Lord meant? Remember, she was not making a prophecy here.

So please stop evading the question. If you are saying that Elizabeth did not mean God by the term Lord, then what did she mean. After being filled with the Holy Spirit, why did call Mary the Mother of her Lord.

Who is this Lord for Elizabeth according to you.

You must have some idea because you have stated that you think she did not mean God so therefore, who is this Lord?
 
Cinette said:
Yes but:(…yes but:confused:…yes but:shrug:…yes but:)
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So far you have not said anything of substance. If you have anything to contribute to this converstation other then ruddness and smart allic remarks the lets discuss if not then keep your rude comments to your self.
 
rev_kevin said:
You and I know it meant God but did she really know that it did.
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So you think after being “filled” with the Holy Spirit she is not aware of this?

Is it not true that the Apostles grasped the reality of Jesus’s Divinity only after they were “filled” with the Holy Spirit?
Remember she is human and even if the HS tells her to do something don’t mean she knows what it meant.
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But this is the whole point of my previous reply to you. The Holy Spirit DID NOT tell her to do something.

If you re-read the passage it does not say that at all. What happened was the Holy Spirit filled her and she recognized the child in Mary’s womb that is why she referred to this child as her Lord.
She is fallible not infallible. She’s not the “Pope.”
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She is fallible but according to the Bible which is inerrant, she was filled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth.
 
rev_kevin said:
Do you have something to contribute to the discussion besides these kind of remarks?
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You have to admit that since this whole exchange centres on the term “Lord” and you said it meant many things, then that tongue in cheek comment is not far off. You did open that line of thinking.
 
benedictus2 said:
You have to admit that since this whole exchange centres on the term “Lord” and you said it meant many things, then that tongue in cheek comment is not far off. You did open that line of thinking.
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Oh I see its ALL MY FAULT now that someone has nothing to say except…well nothing.
Well blame it in the Baptist. Why not. We get blamed for everything else, why not this.
 
benedictus2 said:
So you think after being “filled” with the Holy Spirit she is not aware of this?

Is it not true that the Apostles grasped the reality of Jesus’s Divinity only after they were “filled” with the Holy Spirit?

But this is the whole point of my previous reply to you. The Holy Spirit DID NOT tell her to do something.

If you re-read the passage it does not say that at all. What happened was the Holy Spirit filled her and she recognized the child in Mary’s womb that is why she referred to this child as her Lord.
She is fallible but according to the Bible which is inerrant, she was filled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth.
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Yes you are correct I don’t think she knew it was God himself.
Yes they did but did they also know Jesus was God himself?
Yes which Lord don’t always mean God as I have pointed out earler.
Yes the HS is the spirit of truth but Elizabeth is human and can interpert things incorrect, ya know like us non-Catholics do all the time.
 
rev_kevin said:
Hmmm lets see context, Hmmmm sounds like some kind of book for con’s.

I don’t know if you read the posts but if you have you have seemed to miss the part where I said…well read the posts and you’ll find out.

Context-noun
  1. the part of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage, usually influenceing it’s meaning or effect.
  2. the set of circumstances of facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc.
  3. mycology, the fleshy fibrous body of the pileus in mushrooms.
    ORIGIN
    1357-1425; late ME <L contextus a joining together, scheme, structure equiv. to context (ere) to join by weaving (co- con-+ texere to plait, wave) ± tus suffix of V. action; cf. text.
Lets try to be a bit mor Christian like. 😉
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*How about:

Luke 1:45And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her by the Lord." (Elizabeth) - Lord? which Lord?

to which Mary answered:

Luke 1:46 And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour, 48 for he has looked with favour on the lowliness of his servant, Surely, from now on all generations will call me blessed”
  1. Are you SURE Elizabeth did not know which Lord??
  2. And Mary when she referred to the Lord in response was she also confused??
    :):):)*
 
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