If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?

[Cinette]

Dorimas brought it up

BTW, has anyone looked at how many people the NT records that called Jesus Lord? If you believe Elizabeth equated Lord with God, do you also believe the others knew Jesus was God?

But you have to admit, it makes good conversation/ discussion.

*rev kevin - I don’t believe that anyone else in the NT believed that Jesus was Lord. How could they? They were not involved with the Incarnation as Mary was and they were not close to Mary as Elizabeth was and the Holy Spirit was not inspiring them as he was inspiring Mary and Elizabeth.

*

 

[Nicea325]

I’m sorry but as I have said time and time again on the CAF that I don’t believe Jesus started the CC. Scritpure says that Christ is the Church. It never says that he started any kind of Church. If I’m wrong please show me where he started a Church. I believe in his Word and in his instruction but not the way the CC see it.

Christ never started any kind of Church? Yes the church is His mystical Body,but to believe he never started any kind of church is a bit odd. Didn’t he tell Peter: Upon this rock I will build MY church…He started His own Church,unlike the thousands of man-made churches which exist today. Scripture says nothing about Christ founding thousands of different denominations or giving any mere man the authority to found their own church.

 

[benedictus2]

Sure why not, I’m game.

Hi Rev Kevin,

I have started the thread.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7489936#post7489936

See you there.

Peace!

Cory

 

[rev_kevin]

*rev kevin - I don’t believe that anyone else in the NT believed that Jesus was Lord. How could they? They were not involved with the Incarnation as Mary was and they were not close to Mary as Elizabeth was and the Holy Spirit was not inspiring them as he was inspiring Mary and Elizabeth.

*

Read post 693

 

[rev_kevin]

Christ never started any kind of Church? Yes the church is His mystical Body,but to believe he never started any kind of church is a bit odd. Didn’t he tell Peter: Upon this rock I will build MY church…He started His own Church,unlike the thousands of man-made churches which exist today. Scripture says nothing about Christ founding thousands of different denominations or giving any mere man the authority to found their own church.

This would be off topic. To discuss this please see post 701

 

[elvisman]

Are you saying you get past what the Holy Spirit inspired? I shouldn’t get past what God has said the way He’s said it.

You need to get past the language barrier. You don’t unbderstand because you refuse to learn. That is neither a good - nor a charitable way to have a discussion.

Just as Jesus didn’t speak Greek to his Apostles, Elizabeth didn’t speak Greek to Mary - so some of what we have are transliterations - not translations. Jesus called Simon, Kepha (Aramaic) in Matt. 16.16-19. We call him “Peter” because of the Greek translation of Kepha. Paul refers to him as Cephas, which is a transliteration of the Greek from Aramaic. I’ve been trying to explain this to you for several posts now to no avail.

 

[Cinette]

Read post 693

*So?

Mary and Elizabeth were inspired in a way noone was at that time, in that place!

Elizabeth may not have known about the Holy Trinity but she was inspired to know that there was something special going on.

Go back and read the verses following her statement.

There was something very special going on and the two ladies knew it.

*

 

[elvisman]

Kev answered Elvis’ point.

Ummm . . . all Kev did was bolster my point about the Aramaic language spoken by Mary and Elizabeth, which is a point that you keep dodging . . .

 

[elvisman]

I’m sorry but as I have said time and time again on the CAF that I don’t believe Jesus started the CC. Scritpure says that Christ is the Church. It never says that he started any kind of Church. If I’m wrong please show me where he started a Church. I believe in his Word and in his instruction but not the way the CC see it.

**You are dead wrong, Kev. The Bible doesn’t say that Jesus is the Church - it says that he is the HEAD and WE are the BODY (Eph. 5:23).
It also says that the Church is the FULLNESS of him (Eph. 1:22-23).

Oh, and ummm . . . it DOES say that he started the Church.
Jesus emphatically states in Matt:16:18, "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

---

Care to refute the Word of God, Kev . . . ?

 

[Nicea325]

You are dead wrong, Kev. The Bible *doesn’t *say that Jesus is the Church - it says that he is the HEAD and WE are the BODY (Eph. 5:23).
It also says that the Church is the FULLNESS of him (Eph. 1:22-23).

Oh, and ummm . . . it DOES say that he started the Church.
Jesus emphatically states in Matt:16:18, "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

---

Care to refute the Word of God, Kev . . . ?

elvisman,

I can recall this was brought up a few months back with Rev Kevin about Christ and the Church. His understanding is odd and very unscriptural

 

[rev_kevin]

You are dead wrong, Kev. The Bible *doesn’t *say that Jesus is the Church - it says that he is the HEAD and WE are the BODY (Eph. 5:23).
It also says that the Church is the FULLNESS of him (Eph. 1:22-23).

Oh, and ummm . . . it DOES say that he started the Church.
Jesus emphatically states in Matt:16:18, "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

---

Care to refute the Word of God, Kev . . … ?]

Discussing this on another thread.
But I’ll say this Ephesians 5:23 “…Christ is the head of his body, THE CHURCH; he gave his life to be her Savior.”
Lets not try to use this GUILT treatment by saying: Care to refute the Word of God, Kev . . . ? It don’t work to be honest with you.

 

[benedictus2]

Words have meaning. Lord doesn’t mean God but may refer to God.

Exactly. If it may refer to God, she could have meant God.

I gave you what the Greek word means. Take that meaning as my answer.

But it is not an answer. The Greek word mean the same thing – Lord. My question is what do you think Lord meant for Elizabeth.
At least Rev Kevin actually came up with an answer rather than skirting the issue.

Example: does the name ‘Jesus’ means God? NO. Many have the name Jesus but only one is God. Lord does not mean God.

When you say “it may” then say “it does” not then you have to give a reason why after saying that it is possible that it means God you outright say that it does not. How can you be sure that it does not. What proof do you have that it does not.

Did the Holy Spirit inspire Luke to use the word he used? That’s your answer.

Yes He did but did the Holy Spirit inspire you to interpret Lord as Not God? How do you know for certain that “Lord” does not meant God when Elizabeth said it when a verse later Mary says the same word and means God?

Kev answered Elvis’ point.

I don’t think he did.

 

[elvisman]

Discussing this on another thread.
But I’ll say this Ephesians 5:23 “…Christ is the head of his body, THE CHURCH; he gave his life to be her Savior.”
Lets not try to use this GUILT treatment by saying: Care to refute the Word of God, Kev . . . ? It don’t work to be honest with you.

And Eph. 5:23 proves my point. WE (The Church) are his Body.
By the way - this IS on topic because it is about who you think Christ is.
And, what you are doing IS refuting the Word of God.

I can’t think of one, single reputable Protestant theologian who agrees with you that we are NOT the Body of Christ.

 

[shaky]

Dorimas brought it up

BTW, has anyone looked at how many people the NT records that called Jesus Lord? If you believe Elizabeth equated Lord with God, do you also believe the others knew Jesus was God?

But you have to admit, it makes good conversation/ discussion.

Well if you think about it when Elizabeth used the word ‘‘Lord’’. She had to mean referring to Lord God. Because the other ‘‘lord’’ means a high up position in the land. So why would Elizabeth be referring it to that type of Lord. Because Jesus was not in a position to be that type of lord.

 

[PRmerger]

Well if you think about it when Elizabeth used the word ‘‘Lord’’. She had to mean referring to Lord God. Because the other ‘‘lord’’ means a high up position in the land. So why would Elizabeth be referring it to that type of Lord. Because Jesus was not in a position to be that type of lord.

'zactly!

And I think it’s very, very, important that Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit when she declared that Mary was the Mother of her Lord. Very significant, don’t you think?

If she had just said “Lord”, without the previous reference to the Holy Spirit’s inspiration, then we might be able to discuss what other “lords” she might have meant.

But the Holy Spirit part clinches it, no?

 

[rev_kevin]

And Eph. 5:23 proves my point. WE (The Church) are his Body.
By the way - this IS on topic because it is about who you think Christ is.
And, what you are doing IS refuting the Word of God.

I can’t think of one, single reputable Protestant theologian who agrees with you that we are NOT the Body of Christ.

For once we can agree on something. WE. Everyone who is a believer in Christ is the CHURCH. Not any single religious group. Its the believers.

 

[rev_kevin]

Well if you think about it when Elizabeth used the word ‘‘Lord’’. She had to mean referring to Lord God. Because the other ‘‘lord’’ means a high up position in the land. So why would Elizabeth be referring it to that type of Lord. Because Jesus was not in a position to be that type of lord.

And what do you think people thought/believed Jesus would be? I’ll tell you. A POLITICAL LEADER. So its very possible that is what Elizabeth thought/believed also.

 

[rev_kevin]

'zactly!

And I think it’s very, very, important that Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit when she declared that Mary was the Mother of her Lord. Very significant, don’t you think?

If she had just said “Lord”, without the previous reference to the Holy Spirit’s inspiration, then we might be able to discuss what other “lords” she might have meant.

But the Holy Spirit part clinches it, no?

But the Holy Spirit part clinches it, no?
Not necessarly. She knew he would be great a leader, a lord, so to say. See even though someone is filled wiyh the HS they are still human and can interperate things incorrectly. She knew he was going to be a great leader and may very well thought/believed or even felt thats what the HS meant. But God himself? Not so sure.

Now I want to make it clear that I believe that when she said “Mother of My Lord” that it meant he was God. But thats not the question now is it.The question is did Elizabeth know that.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Ummm . . . all Kev did was bolster my point about the Aramaic language spoken by Mary and Elizabeth, which is a point that you keep dodging . . .

50 Pages later at that. Dok is in this for the long haul.

 

[elvisman]

For once we can agree on something. WE. Everyone who is a believer in Christ is the CHURCH. Not any single religious group. Its the believers.

**First of all - I said WE - the Church. If you’re not part of his Church - you’re not part of his Body.

Secondly - you are now contradicting your earlier claim that Jesus IS the Church. As the HEAD he is inseperable from the Church.

Lastly - James 2:19 tells us that even the demons are believers. Are you saying that THEY are part of the Church, Kevin?