If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?

[benidict]

Was Mary a sinner? We know she needed salvation and was rebuked a number of times for not understanding the work of her son. I would be interested in knowing how she can be the mother of God, if was is a sinner like you and I?

**46 And Mary said: “My soul glorifies the Lord 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed, 49 for the Mighty One (Yahweh) has done great things for me holy is his name. **

Clearly Mary knew she needed saving from her sinnul position and bore a nature that was prone to temptation and sin, which of course lead to her death.

I would be interested if someone from the scriptures could show where it states she is the mother of God? And how this was possiple seeing God is the Alpha and the Omega and has no beginning or end.

Ok my friend. now you get to see the serious side of me. What version of the bible does your organization use? I will be happy to use it to refute your movements doctrines.

 

[GaryTaylor]

So are you saying that Mary never sinned? Not once?

Does “your” BIble have a verse where Mary sinned?

 

[PRmerger]

Firstly, sk, welcome to the forum. It might be helpful for you to check out this thread to learn how to use the Quote Feature. That will allow you to dialogue more productively on the forum. You will be able to respond to posters’ individual points.

Jesus family here wants to take Jesus home because they (including Mary) thought Jesus had gone mad.

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 ** Pointing to his disciples, he said**, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” Matthew 12:48-52

Do you thing Mary was doing the Father’s will?

Indeed, she* was *doing the Father’s will. All generations should call her blessed, right?

I still am wondering what sin it was you believe Mary committed, and what verse in Scripture tells you this.

It also seems that you believe that Christ sinned by being disrespectful to his mother? Is this what you believe?

 

[ClamDigger]

I apologies in advance if I am not able to answer all your statements and questions. It appears clear that few have really looked deeply into the life of Mary.

And by that, I assume, you mean that I haven’t read things into Scripture that aren’t there like you have?

You will know these words.

Simeon who was in the temple blessed Mary & Joseph with these words.

**Luke 2:34 Behold, this child (Jesus) is set for the falling and rising up of many in Israel; and for a sign which is spoken against;

The next statement is directed towards Mary only…

Luk 2:35 (yea and a sword shall pierce through thine (Mary) own soul) that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed.
**

Have you ever considered what the sword which would pierce Marys heart was?

The sword was the sword that pierced her heart when her son was murdered. That is the traditional explanation. Your belief, on the other hand, has no basis in Apostolic tradition. Therefore, I reject it in favor of 2 Thessalonians 2.15, which states that we are to hold on to the ancient traditions that were passed onto us by the apostles.

Simeon’s words had their foundation in Isaiah 8
**
Isaiah 8:14 And he (Christ) shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Isa 8:15 And many shall stumble thereon, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken. **

So both Luke 2 & Isaiah 8 speak of the coming of Jesus Christ as a stone people will stumble over.

It says that Christ serves as a stumbling block for many people, not all people. Christ does not serve as a stumbling block for Mary or any other believers.

The question is why?

Why does Christ serve as a stumbling block for some people? Beats me! I have faith in him. Christ is a stumbling block for the faithless. However, he is a sanctuary for the faithful.

 

[ClamDigger]

Cont…

Right to this question:

If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?

Jesus is the Son of God. The Jews worshiped a single God. They worship Yahweh Elohim who is Mighty and all Powerful. The Jews even today cannot bring themselves to acknowledge God came down upon Earth and bore a child with Mary. Jesus Christ was Gods first real personal involvement with mankind and all Israel to this day stumble at this teaching Luke 2 & Isaiah 8.

Unfortunately you have taken the Son of God and made it God the Son which is not spoken of in the Holy Scriptures.

What do you think is meant by Jesus when he told us to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? We are told to baptize in the name of the three divine persons of the Holy Trinity. That is, of God. We do not baptize in the name of John the Baptist or in the name of Mary because they are human. We baptize in the name of GOD the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. What do you think is meant when we read, “In the beginning was [Jesus] the Word, and [Jesus] the Word was with God, and [Jesus]** the Word was God**”? If Jesus is not God, why does John the Apostle tell us that he is God and why do we baptize in his name?

Jesus is the Son of God and the Son of Man who sits at the right hand of the Father. Of course after his ascension the fullness of the Godhead now dwells in him bodily, but he is Not God.

Where is this in the Bible?

In fact we are told Jesus will hand the Kingdom back to his Father. Jesus is subject to His father as my son is subject to me. God has no equal, God created Jesus Christ in the womb of a woman named Mary. A humble young woman who both had earthly parents, descendants of Judah and in line of King David.

So at this teaching…

Many in this blog have risen up to this child (Jesus), that your minds are risen to the occasion of Christ, sadly many have fallen and their thoughts out of their hearts will be revealed in that day.

I don’t even understand what you are saying here. Could you speak more plainly in the future? Thanks!

Blessed be the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ

And blessed be God, who is the Son of God the Father in the person of Jesus Christ.

God in that he had his beginning created and did not preexist

We all know that. “For in the beginning was [Jesus] the Word, and [Jesus] the Word was with God, and [Jesus] the Word was God.”

And Father in that He had a child with Mary a handmaiden (female slave) of the Lord

God and Father only.

Indeed, God the Father is the only God the Father. He is not God the Son or God the Holy Spirit.

 

[StTommyMore]

Pray tell were exactly in the bible does it say “mary is the mother of god” it does not.

Luke 1:43:

And why is it the mother of my Lord should come to me?

This is pretty clear, don’t you think? And Pray tell, where in the Bible does it say that all matters of doctrine must be explicitly spelled out in the Scriptures?

 

[ClamDigger]

Jesus ‘rebuked’ her twice I can think of: once at the wedding (John 2) and the other time when He was twelve (Luke 2:42ff).

Though both times he ended up submitting to her will… hmmmm… Kind of makes me think the will of God might have been working through Mary. What do you think?

Jesus ignored her once too: Mark 3:31ff

Where does it say he ignored her in Mark 3.31?

I think looking at these verses without any presuppositions point to the ideas as I’ve mentioned them.
These don’t make her a sinner, but there’s others mentioned in the Bible that never got rebuked. Does that mean they were not sinners?

Some may not have committed personal sin. For example, it is a widely accepted tradition that John the Baptist never committed personal sin.

 

[ClamDigger]

Jesus is God. His right is to set sinners right; even the one who birthed Him. Remember Mary is a created being by Jesus.

So because someone is a created being, they are automatically a sinner? Wow… the babies who died due to miscarriage and SIDS will probably be pretty surprised to hear what their “sins” were on the Day of Judgment…

 

[PRmerger]

Also by inference Jesus was saying Mary and brothers at this point in time you are not my DISCIPLES.

Just wondering, sk, if you are a proponent of the doctrine Once Saved Always Saved?

 

[Dokimas]

So because someone is a created being, they are automatically a sinner?

Having a sin nature makes on a sinner, does it not?

Ps 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
Ge 8:21 And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.
Job 15:14 "What is man, that he could be pure? And he who is born of a woman, that he could be righteous?
Job 15:15 If God puts no trust in His saints, And the heavens are not pure in His sight,
Joh 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Ro 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned–

Wow… the babies who died due to miscarriage and SIDS will probably be pretty surprised to hear what their “sins” were on the Day of Judgment…

Could it be you misunderstand the grace of God?

 

[StTommyMore]

Having a sin nature makes on a sinner, does it not?

Ps 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
Ge 8:21 And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.
Job 15:14 "What is man, that he could be pure? And he who is born of a woman, that he could be righteous?
Job 15:15 If God puts no trust in His saints, And the heavens are not pure in His sight,
Joh 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Ro 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned–

Could it be you misunderstand the grace of God?

You are misapplying Romans 5:12 here, because “all” does not mean “absolutely all”. We know this because death does not pass upon all men, and not all have personal sin.

 

[Dokimas]

You are misapplying Romans 5:12 here, because “all” does not mean “absolutely all”. We know this because death does not pass upon all men, and not all have personal sin.

Jesus is the only one we know for sure that is without sin.

Just because Elijah was taken without death doesn’t mean he was without sin, he lacked faith and wanted to die.

 

[ClamDigger]

Having a sin nature makes on a sinner, does it not?

No. Having a sinful nature does not automatically make one a sinner. Sinning makes a person a sinner.

Ps 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.

It says that the wicked are estranged from the womb. Is Mary, who is “blessed among women”, now wicked?

Ge 8:21 And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although **the imagination of man’s heart **is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

Yes, the will of man’s heart is evil by itself. That is why we must bind our will to the will of God as Mary did in Luke 1.38.

Job 15:14 "What is man, that he could be pure? And he who is born of a woman, that he could be righteous?
Job 15:15 If God puts no trust in His saints, And the heavens are not pure in His sight,

“Amen I say to you, there hath not risen among them that are born of women a greater than John the Baptist.”
“Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee! Blessed art thou among women!”
“For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed!”
Job was simply asking a generalized question in his despair. It is a common literary device.

Joh 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

This is simply saying that what is born of the Holy Spirit is not corruptible as our bodies are… so I’m not sure what this has to do with the matter at hand… Moving on…

Ro 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned–

Are you serious? You really believe that infants in the womb, who have never had the chance to even breathe, have sinned? You don’t think this is a literary generalization used by the apostle to convey a message?

Could it be you misunderstand the grace of God?

It seems to me that you misunderstand God’s grace! Thinking that he finds children guilty of sin simply for existing? What kind of graciousness is that?

 

[StTommyMore]

Jesus is the only one we know for sure that is without sin.

Just because Elijah was taken without death doesn’t mean he was without sin, he lacked faith and wanted to die.

The fact remains the neither Enoch nor Elijah died. Not “all” died. Furthermore, on the Last Day, there will be those who will go to be with the Lord without seeing death. Not all died. Also, not all have personal sin, such as infants. Therefore Paul is not speaking in absolutes, but only speaking of the general human condition.

 

[ClamDigger]

The fact remains the neither Enoch nor Elijah died. Not “all” died. Furthermore, on the Last Day, there will be those who will go to be with the Lord without seeing death. Not all died. Also, not all have personal sin, such as infants. Therefore Paul is not speaking in absolutes, but only speaking of the general human condition.

Beautifully said!

 

[adrift]

Jesus ‘rebuked’ her twice I can think of: once at the wedding (John 2) and the other time when He was twelve (Luke 2:42ff).

Jesus ignored her once too: Mark 3:31ff

I think looking at these verses without any presuppositions point to the ideas as I’ve mentioned them.

These don’t make her a sinner, but there’s others mentioned in the Bible that never got rebuked. Does that mean they were not sinners?

I think a definition is in order
rebuke-a : to criticize sharply : reprimand

Nowhere does Jesus rebuke Mary. The wedding is no rebuke. Mary tells Jesus of a problem. Jesus answers it is not His time. There is no criticism or reprimand. What happens? Jesus does as Mary asked.
Your reference to Luke is the finding in the Temple. Again there is no criticism and the result.

And He went down with them, and came to Nazareth; and He was subject unto them:

He ignored her? No He used her presence to teach a lesson. Not all was written that occurred. It is silent of what came after. Did He go and talk to them? It does not say one way or the other. Your conclusion is unwarranted and not born out by scripture. Even on the cross He was concerned about her. It is because of your presuppositions that you come away with your strange conclusion.

Jesus is God. His right is to set sinners right; even the one who birthed Him. Remember Mary is a created being by Jesus.

Jesus is also human. Your so called rebukes do not rise to sin. Jesus wasn’t correcting a sin.

 

[GaryTaylor]

You really have to understand the “Wedding of Cana”. For example, the phrase “Its not my Time”.

Its a Mother who is helping a Son walk toward a diffiicult predestination in complete understanding. Both know His destination “His Time”. Mary is being a supportive Mother an guiding Her Son as any supportive Mother would do in a moment of doubt. When Mary states “Do whatever He tell you”. You here grasp the confidence Mary has in Jesus and His destination. “My time has not come” is a reluctance and moment in insecurity on Christs part if in fact he should expose himself at this moment. Christ “Time” is the Cross. That “is” the time he was born and died for.

The idea of Mary being called Woman in any way to diminish her reality a Mother of Jesus, or rebuke Her is so far off track its not even in the ball-park. Sola Scriptura understanding based on zero fact and dangerous idealism.

Want to read an in-depth study of the Wedding of Cana, read Benedict XVI “Jesus of Nazareth” part-I he devotes a great deal of time to the Wedding of Cana.

God Bless, Gary

 

[Christadelphian]

Why do you all keep putting the words “God the son” ? never once in the entire bible are those three words used like that, its only ever " Son of God." If the trinity was supposed to be something so beneficial in how we look at god, wouldn’t you think we would have an entire book in the bible just based on that, i mean something so important god would of made it clear. I mean there is nothing, just a hand full of bias versus that was put in when it was being translated and if one simply looks back to the original Greek its different.

“Who is Jesus Christ?”
The only begotten son of God… take an example of when Jesus got baptized and the heavens opened and God declared that this is HIS son for whom he is well pleased! Now i don’t know about you but that sounds like father proud of his son. Not just another version of himself.

Here are a ton of scriptures that shows you Jesus inst god.

* Jesus said, "The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him." (John 13:16) Jesus said on numerous occasions that, "the Father… hath sent me." (John 5:37,6:37) The Holy Ghost was also sent by the Father (John 14:26) and Jesus (John 16:7), thus making Jesus inferior to the Father and the Holy Ghost inferior to both the Father and Jesus.
* "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the spirit of truth." (John 14:16)
* Jesus prays to God. (John 17:1-3)
* Jesus has faith in God. (Hebrews 2:17,18, Hebrews 3:2)
* Jesus is a servant of God. (Acts 3:13)
* Jesus does not know things God knows. (Mark 13:32, Revelation 1:1)
* Jesus worships God. (John 4:22)
* Jesus has one who is God to him. (Revelation 3:12)
* Jesus is in subjection to God. (1 Corinthians 15:28)
* Jesus' head is God. (1 Corinthians 11:1)
* Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God. (Hebrews 5:7)
* Jesus is given lordship by God. (Acts 2:36)
* Jesus is exalted by God.(Acts 5:31)
* Jesus is made high priest by God. (Hebrews 5:10)
* Jesus is given authority by God. (Philippians 2:9)
* Jesus is given kingship by God. (Luke 1:32,33)
* Jesus is given judgment by God. (Acts 10:42)
* "God raised [Jesus] from the dead". (Acts 2:24, Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 15:15)
* Jesus is at the right hand of God. (Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34)
* Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and man. (1 Timothy 2:5)
* God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)
* Jesus did not think being "equal with God" was graspable. (Philippians 2:6)
* "Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"" (Matthew 27:46)

If you have read threw them all and looked them up then you can only come to the conclusion that Jesus isn’t god, never claimed to be and in fact claimed to be inferior then god.

The truth.

 

[Nicea325]

Why do you all keep putting the words “God the son” ? never once in the entire bible are those three words used like that, its only ever " Son of God." If the trinity was supposed to be something so beneficial in how we look at god, wouldn’t you think we would have an entire book in the bible just based on that, i mean something so important god would of made it clear. I mean there is nothing, just a hand full of bias versus that was put in when it was being translated and if one simply looks back to the original Greek its different.

“Who is Jesus Christ?”
The only begotten son of God… take an example of when Jesus got baptized and the heavens opened and God declared that this is HIS son for whom he is well pleased! Now i don’t know about you but that sounds like father proud of his son. Not just another version of himself.

Here are a ton of scriptures that shows you Jesus inst god.

* Jesus said, "The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him." (John 13:16) Jesus said on numerous occasions that, "the Father… hath sent me." (John 5:37,6:37) The Holy Ghost was also sent by the Father (John 14:26) and Jesus (John 16:7), thus making Jesus inferior to the Father and the Holy Ghost inferior to both the Father and Jesus.
* "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the spirit of truth." (John 14:16)
* Jesus prays to God. (John 17:1-3)
* Jesus has faith in God. (Hebrews 2:17,18, Hebrews 3:2)
* Jesus is a servant of God. (Acts 3:13)
* Jesus does not know things God knows. (Mark 13:32, Revelation 1:1)
* Jesus worships God. (John 4:22)
* Jesus has one who is God to him. (Revelation 3:12)
* Jesus is in subjection to God. (1 Corinthians 15:28)
* Jesus' head is God. (1 Corinthians 11:1)
* Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God. (Hebrews 5:7)
* Jesus is given lordship by God. (Acts 2:36)
* Jesus is exalted by God.(Acts 5:31)
* Jesus is made high priest by God. (Hebrews 5:10)
* Jesus is given authority by God. (Philippians 2:9)
* Jesus is given kingship by God. (Luke 1:32,33)
* Jesus is given judgment by God. (Acts 10:42)
* "God raised [Jesus] from the dead". (Acts 2:24, Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 15:15)
* Jesus is at the right hand of God. (Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34)
* Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and man. (1 Timothy 2:5)
* God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)
* Jesus did not think being "equal with God" was graspable. (Philippians 2:6)
* "Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"" (Matthew 27:46)

If you have read threw them all and looked them up then you can only come to the conclusion that Jesus isn’t god, never claimed to be and in fact claimed to be inferior then god.

The truth.

Nope! Poor exegesis…very poor! What you forget is Jesus is not making reference to His substance to the Father,but His…WILL!

 

[StTommyMore]

There is actually reference to the Trinity in Ezekiel:
In the True Shepherd oracle (Ezk 34), there is one Shepherd, who is identified as both David and the LORD. So which is it? It is both. This is a mystical prophecy of the Hypostatic Union.