If you don't believe in Purgatory....

[JoeyWarren]

Thank you Edwin for the wonderful treatment.

 

[justasking4]

Contarini;2519851]

You have to prove this–you can’t just assert it. (Well, you can, but what’s the point?)
Prove what? That purgatory is a denial of the sufficency of the death of Christ?

If I am heavily in debt and am told, “all your debts have been forgiven,” does that mean that if I go out and borrow a million dollars tomorrow no one will expect me to pay it back? Your interpretation is counter-intuitive.

Your example makes sense and that is why we owe Christ everything. We do owe but we don’t have the means to repay. Someone else (Christ) paid the infinite price for our sins. If He did not do that, we would all be condemned and rightfully so.

The traditional Catholic response to this is to say that it was true for Paul but not necessarily for everyone else.

f we take this route then what the Scriptures really are no benefit for us. To say this is just true for Paul and not for us then we might as well throw out all his letters since he uses his own personal life so much as an example of what Christ has done for him.

One could also argue that it doesn’t exclude a transitional period. However, I don’t find these arguments convincing. I agree that this passage excludes the idea of a period of time spent by a believer after death outside the immediate presence of God. On the contrary, I would say that Purgatory is the presence of God as experienced by someone not yet entirely sanctified. (I’m happy using other metaphors for it–one of my favorites is being locked up in a room with people you don’t like until you learn to love them, and I’ve also speculated that for me Purgatory will be a messy room and I won’t get “out” until I’ve cleaned it up; but I know that these are metaphors.)

I’m not saying purgatory does not make sense but is it true? Do the scriptures teach it? The problem is that the scriptures don’t.

Purgatory is not condemnation.

i agree. However, does purgatory require suffering? Does it have some “cleansing” aspects to it?

Leaving 2 Maccabees out of it (!), I think 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 points in that direction. I know that it is vague and can be interpreted in a lot of different ways, which is why I consider purgatory a matter of speculation and not of dogma. But it certainly fits in very well with a theology of purgatory.

I Corinthians 3:10-15 on the surface does look like some kind of purgatory but upon closer examination it does not. The context of the passage does not fit.

This is a false dichotomy. You might as well say that you never needed to believe in Jesus at all, because it is His dying that saved you and not repentance or faith. By this logic, everyone was saved automatically at the Cross whether they ever believe in Jesus or not.

I’m not saying this at all. The scriptures are clear that a person must truly repent and believe that Christ died for their sins and rose again. This is not done automatically for someone.

Never mind that people in Purgatory are by definition “saved,” and in my understanding they are actually in the presence of God.

Edwin

If what you are saying is true, then the doctrine of purgatory further errodes the sufficency of the death and resurrection of Christ.

 

[justasking4]

For a person to be fully united to God in heavenly glory every attachment to sin, no matter how minuscule, must be eliminated (Rev. 21: 27). The purification must be perfect, total, and complete. This is, precisely, the Church’s teaching on Purgatory, which is in perfect harmony with Scripture.

There can be no selfish desires in heaven. All desire for self-gain is non-existent in heaven. We must exist totally for God. Not 90% or even 99.9%; we must have complete, total 100% singleness of purpose, 100% devotion to and existence for God. We must love others as Jesus loves us, completely and selflessly. We must be totally selfless servants of others. A love mixed with no self interest.

Yet in our fallen human nature, even after being “saved”, we are still disordered in our selfishness. We remain inordinately preoccupied with our selves. We all succumb, to some degree, to the worldly concept of “looking out for number one.” But we cannot bring this kind of self-centered attitude, in any degree, into heaven. Yet who among us is completely without self-centeredness, pride and ego while on earth" Who among us is “perfect”, completely undefiled by sin, sinful tendencies, thoughts and desires?

Even the Apostles fell victim to their own self-centeredness, pride and ego, at least on occasions. One example is when they were arguing amongst themselves about which of them is the greatest. Jesus, in rebuking them, explains that it is the one who is least that is the “greatest” (Lk. 9: 46-48). Jesus explains to them (and to us) that whoever wishes to be great should become the servant of all, just as He Himself came not to be served but to serve and to give His life for others (Matt. 20: 26-28; Lk. 22: 24-30). What Jesus is telling His Apostles, in ordinary everyday language, is something like this" “Look you lunkheads, don’t you understand!? There can be no jealousies or rivalries in heaven. It’s not about self. It’s about God and others. It’s about total self-less-ness!!”

Could the Apostles bring this “I’m the greatest” attitude and mentality into heaven? No. Can we bring the same or similar self-centered attitudes or desires with us into heaven? Of course not. “All bitterness, fury, anger, shouting, and reviling must be removed from you, along with all malice.” (Eph. 4: 31; see again Rev. 21: 27).

Only the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory harmonizes and makes sense of all of Scripture and all of Christ’s teachings about the afterlife. It is only through the final sanctification of Purgatory that our self-centered, sinful nature is cleansed and purified by Jesus, making us fit for heavenly glory.

It is only through the thoroughly biblical teaching of the Catholic Church on purgatorial sanctification that two seemingly paradoxical and apparently contradictory truths can be harmonized and reconciled with each other into one cohesive and homogeneous whole, namely that we continue sinning (to some degree at least) our entire earthly lives. That’s truth number one. Truth number two is that we do not continue sinning (in any degree) in heaven, not even our thoughts: sinning of earth, no sinning in heaven. The only way to reconcile and harmonize these two truths is that we must undergo a change in our very nature. The fact is that between physical death and eternal heavenly glory must come purification. We must experience our final sanctification through Jesus Christ before entering into heavenly glory because we can’t bring anything unclean in heaven (Rev. 21: 27; Heb. 12:14 & 23; Eph. 4: 31; 1 Cor. 15: 42-43). This final purification, this final sanctification, this final application of Christ’s righteousness is, by definition, Purgatory.

If what you are saying here is true, then what am i to make of these passages that say otherwise to purgatory:
Ephesians 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight

1: 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

What these passages show is that all transgressions have been forgiven. There is also the blood of Christ that “cleanses” us from all sin. I john 1:9 makes this clear. To say we need to have some further “cleansing” in purgatory would completely nullify what these passages are teaching.

 

[JoeyWarren]

What these passages show is that all transgressions have been forgiven. There is also the blood of Christ that “cleanses” us from all sin. I john 1:9 makes this clear. To say we need to have some further “cleansing” in purgatory would completely nullify what these passages are teaching.

Yes the blood of Christ does cleanse us from all sin, and only sin that has been committed or born with. It does not automatically take care of future sin. And no, one is not made impervious to sin, if one was, then one would be impeccable as God is.

You and I still cling to our prejudices, hates, pride, and arrogance. We can not enter into the presence of God with this taint still on us.

Also I will point out that nowhere in the Bible does it claim that we are saved. Every instance indicates that we will be or shall be saved. Will and Shall are subjunctive verbs. They are contigency verbs. Your state of Salvation is contigient on how and what you do with your faith and belief.

I will use the twin analogy that Peter Da Rock’s posted that you obviously missed. He did a good job in pointing out what you have missed…

**Twins are separated at birth and are put up for adoption.

Twin A gets adopted by a pious Christian family. Twin A accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior and lives a pious life.

Twin B gets adopted by a non Christian family. Twin B lives a sinful life.

70 years pass since birth.

Twin A and Twin B end up in the Hospital on their death bed in the same room. Twin A tells Twin B about Jesus. Twin B accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.

1 minute later, Twin A and Twin B die.

Obviously we could say that Twin A goes to heaven. Whether or not Twin A passed thru the state of Purification is not the issue.

Twin B?

From a Protestant viewpoint, They say that both would end up in Heaven at heaven to stand before God at the same time.

I see a problem with this. This belief says I can live a sinful life and continue so as long a I at some point before death repent for my sins and ask for forgiveness provided I don’t get taken out of this life in a untimely manner such as an Automobile accident, Heart Attack, etc, etc, etc.

Twin A has never known Sin. Twin B has known Sin all his life.

The wages of Sin is death. Where does the death part come into play for one that has sinned all his life and by chance happens to get saved just prior to death?

Purification removes this problem. Twin B has a lot of straw, hay, and thistle to be burned away.

Of course there is no way to determine how long this purification takes place. Could be 1 millionth of second or could last until Christ comes back again.

Purgatory just makes sense from the Twin analogy.

Time is no barrier to the purification process.**

 

[JoeyWarren]

What these passages show is that all transgressions have been forgiven. There is also the blood of Christ that “cleanses” us from all sin. I john 1:9 makes this clear. To say we need to have some further “cleansing” in purgatory would completely nullify what these passages are teaching.

Our sins that we have committed have be cleansed.

We still possess those defects and imperfections in our character.

We still possess those defects and imperfection in how we live our daily lives. I will use my favorite example. Just about about Christian drives consciously above the posted speed limit. The Christian is knowingly breaking the law. We are told in the Scriptures to obey those placed over us. State and Federal Government has been placed over us. Those laws have been made to protect our safety physically. Jesus gaves us laws, directives, and commandments to protect our safety spiritually. We are to obey the laws they(governments) have established. You fail to obey the law, then you fail to obey God.

If purgatory denies the sufficient work of Christ did, then so does imprisonment and capital punishment.

 

[Techno2000]

I was wondering if someone who does not believe in Purgatory could answer this compound question:

Earthly beings are prone to sin. Heavenly beings are not.

So the question is:
***How/when is a sin-prone mortal transformed into a non-sin-prone eternal being? How does that happen? ***

Any answer is welcome…even speculation.

Well, Purgatory is kind of a Mystery, here’s some Catholic Mystics :
ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/CATPUR.TXT
my.homewithgod.com/gertrude/purgatory/
trumpetersmission.com/messages_purgatory.htm

 

[holy_wood]

II. Purification After Death By Fire

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15

According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,

Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23

but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,a] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

• the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19

I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.

• Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

 

[justasking4]

JoeyWarren;2520229]Yes the blood of Christ does cleanse us from all sin, and only sin that has been committed or born with. It does not automatically take care of future sin. And no, one is not made impervious to sin, if one was, then one would be impeccable as God is.

How can i be responsible for “future sin” if i have yet to commit it?

You and I still cling to our prejudices, hates, pride, and arrogance. We can not enter into the presence of God with this taint still on us.

i agree and we don’t since we are cleansed by the blood of Christ and saved in His life. See Romans 5:12

Also I will point out that nowhere in the Bible does it claim that we are saved. Every instance indicates that we will be or shall be saved. Will and Shall are subjunctive verbs. They are contigency verbs. Your state of Salvation is contigient on how and what you do with your faith and belief.

then what am to make of Paul’ statement in Romans 5:1 where he writes-- Therefore, **having been justified **by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
What Paul is stating here is that we are “justified i.e. in the sight of God” this very moment. Or take Ephesians 2:8 where it says
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

I will use the twin analogy that Peter Da Rock’s posted that you obviously missed. He did a good job in pointing out what you have missed…

**Twins are separated at birth and are put up for adoption.

Twin A gets adopted by a pious Christian family. Twin A accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior and lives a pious life.

Twin B gets adopted by a non Christian family. Twin B lives a sinful life.

70 years pass since birth.

Twin A and Twin B end up in the Hospital on their death bed in the same room. Twin A tells Twin B about Jesus. Twin B accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.

1 minute later, Twin A and Twin B die.

Obviously we could say that Twin A goes to heaven. Whether or not Twin A passed thru the state of Purification is not the issue.

Twin B?

From a Protestant viewpoint, They say that both would end up in Heaven at heaven to stand before God at the same time.

I see a problem with this. This belief says I can live a sinful life and continue so as long a I at some point before death repent for my sins and ask for forgiveness provided I don’t get taken out of this life in a untimely manner such as an Automobile accident, Heart Attack, etc, etc, etc.

Twin A has never known Sin. Twin B has known Sin all his life. **

The wages of Sin is death. Where does the death part come into play for one that has sinned all his life and by chance happens to get saved just prior to death?

The one who is living in sinned is living a life of death. He was dead in his trespasses and sins.
Now can such a person be saved prior to death? Yes.

Purification removes this problem. Twin B has a lot of straw, hay, and thistle to be burned away.

If you are referring to I Cor 3:10-15 this is not about sin but works on which a man is building on.In this process of fire it is the works that is being burned up and not the man i.e. soul.

Of course there is no way to determine how long this purification takes place. Could be 1 millionth of second or could last until Christ comes back again.

Purgatory just makes sense from the Twin analogy.

Time is no barrier to the purification process.

Nice analogy but it doesn’t fit the Scriptures.

 

[MarcoPolo]

How does that happen?
The scriptures don’t say that i’m aware of. Something does happen in our spirit at the moment of salvation in Christ that does change us in how we think and live.

I am guessing that the phrase: “the moment of salvation in Christ” to you occurs on earth. But even after that “moment” the person is still a sin-prone mortal. My question was how is the sin-prone mortal (you can assume he is a “saved” person) transformed into the perfect, non-sin-prone eternal being after death?

These sins we do in the flesh must also be confessed

Ok, I’m not sure I’m following because that was my 2nd point. If the Crucifixion was sufficient and “adding” anything to it like Purgatory is, as you say, denying it’s sufficiency, then what good is a confession? Why aren’t you denying the sufficiency of the Crucifixion in your statement?

 

[Techno2000]

I am guessing that the phrase: “the moment of salvation in Christ” to you occurs on earth. But even after that “moment” the person is still a sin-prone mortal. My question was how is the sin-prone mortal (you can assume he is a “saved” person) transformed into the perfect, non-sin-prone eternal being after death?

Ok, I’m not sure I’m following because that was my 2nd point. If the Crucifixion was sufficient and “adding” anything to it like Purgatory is, as you say, denying it’s sufficiency, then what good is a confession? Why aren’t you denying the sufficiency of the Crucifixion in your statement?

How can a man be separated from his Works, and I thought Protestants didn’t believe in “WORKS” anyway ?

---

 

[Techno2000]

How can i be responsible for “future sin” if i have yet to commit it?

i agree and we don’t since we are cleansed by the blood of Christ and saved in His life. See Romans 5:12

then what am to make of Paul’ statement in Romans 5:1 where he writes-- Therefore, **having been justified **by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
What Paul is stating here is that we are “justified i.e. in the sight of God” this very moment. Or take Ephesians 2:8 where it says
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

The one who is living in sinned is living a life of death. He was dead in his trespasses and sins.
Now can such a person be saved prior to death? Yes.

If you are referring to I Cor 3:10-15 this is not about sin but works on which a man is building on.In this process of fire it is the works that is being burned up and not the man i.e. soul.

Nice analogy but it doesn’t fit the Scriptures.

How can a man be separated from his Works, and I thought Protestants didn’t believe in “WORKS” anyway ?

("What Paul is stating here is that we are “justified i.e. in the sight of God” )

So why did Jesus go through the Trouble of giving the apostle the power to forgive sins if everybody is " justified"?

---

 

[justasking4]

Techno2000;2521888]How can a man be separated from his Works, and I thought Protestants didn’t believe in “WORKS” anyway ?

Works are important but in and of themselves cannot save a person. A person who relies on their works to save them without explicit faith in Christ Who died for their sins and rose again will be condemnded.

("What Paul is stating here is that we are “justified i.e. in the sight of God” )

If we are justified in the sight of God, why would we need purgatory?

So why did Jesus go through the Trouble of giving the apostle the power to forgive sins if everybody is " justified"?

---

We still need forgiveness for the sins we commit in the flesh. Our spirit is saved in Christ but the body has not.

 

[justasking4]

MarcoPolo;2521583]I am guessing that the phrase: “the moment of salvation in Christ” to you occurs on earth. But even after that “moment” the person is still a sin-prone mortal. My question was how is the sin-prone mortal (you can assume he is a “saved” person) transformed into the perfect, non-sin-prone eternal being after death?

The scriptures don’t say.

Ok, I’m not sure I’m following because that was my 2nd point. If the Crucifixion was sufficient and “adding” anything to it like Purgatory is, as you say, denying it’s sufficiency, then what good is a confession? Why aren’t you denying the sufficiency of the Crucifixion in your statement?

The death and resurrection was for us. His death on the cross was for our sins. God condemned our sins in the body of Christ Romans 8:3. By His resurrection we are now accepted and justified.
Even though we are saved in our spirits because of our union with Christ. Romans 6, the flesh in which we live still causes us to sin (Romans 7:17-23). It is those sins that we are confessing and need to confess. I John 1:9.

 

[Techno2000]

Works are important but in and of themselves cannot save a person. A person who relies on their works to save them without explicit faith in Christ Who died for their sins and rose again will be condemnded.

If we are justified in the sight of God, why would we need purgatory?

We still need forgiveness for the sins we commit in the flesh. Our spirit is saved in Christ but the body has not.

Right, works without Faith is Dead.We need Purgatory, Because Jesus said we are to be PERFECT as God is PERFECT,and God Judges Man by what he did in his Flesh, in this Life.

 

[MarcoPolo]

The scriptures don’t say.

But you said in post #30, “This idea of a final purification is contrary to the scriptures”

But if you now really believe Scripture doesn’t address the issue, then a final mercy by God to perfect us into heavenly beings wouldn’t contradict them. Scripture says we are imperfect here but perfect in heaven, so you know the purification has to happen. Right?

The death and resurrection was for us. His death on the cross was for our sins. God condemned our sins in the body of Christ Romans 8:3. By His resurrection we are now accepted and justified.
Even though we are saved in our spirits because of our union with Christ. Romans 6, the flesh in which we live still causes us to sin (Romans 7:17-23). It is those sins that we are confessing and need to confess. I John 1:9.

I’m sorry justasking, I just fail to follow you on this. First it was Christ’s death was all we needed in post 30, then you added confession, and now confession + the Resurrection too. Why not a final act of mercy by God to purify us to perfection for heaven? Remember, this all goes back to you saying that purgatory denies the sufficiency of Christ’s death on the cross, but it sounds like you do too. No?

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Works are important but in and of themselves cannot save a person. A person who relies on their works to save them without explicit faith in Christ Who died for their sins and rose again will be condemnded.

Yes works cannot save a person.

Yet faith cannot save a person either.

It requires a combination of both.

As James wrote:

“Faith without works is dead”

One cannot get into heaven with a “DEAD FAITH”.

So if a final purfication does not exist, then most christians are in dire straits.

Here’s an example.

2 people have faith.

365 days a year opportunity is presented for the person to perform some good works.

Person A jumps at every opportunity to perform some measure of good work.

Person B only jumps at the most once a week to perform some measure of good work.

I sure you are intelligent to get the gist of what I am getting out without having to go further.

ALSO

Works are just limited to doing physical or visible things, it also encompasses what you do and think mentally.

Two persons can be looking at new footage of the bombings in Iraq.

Person B looks and thinks hateful and vengeful things about the bombers.

Person A looks on the bombers and has pity on them and prays to God that God may show the bombers the truth path to everlasting Glory.

JustAsking4, are you Person A or are you Person B.

If you are person B and you are in state of Anger or hatred, or Contempt while watching the bombing news footage and you happen to have a heart attack and die in this state, without the benefit of purgation you will go to hell. Why? because Jesus said having anger is just as sinful as actually committing a murder.

God bless.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that **no murderer hath eternal life **abiding in him.

 

[justasking4]

We still need forgiveness for the sins we commit in the flesh. Our spirit is saved in Christ but the body has not.

Right, works without Faith is Dead.We need Purgatory, Because Jesus said we are to be PERFECT as God is PERFECT,and God Judges Man by what he did in his Flesh, in this Life.

Lets assume you are correct. How does purgatory make a person perfect?

 

[justasking4]

MarcoPolo;2522238]But you said in post #30, “This idea of a final purification is contrary to the scriptures”

But if you now really believe Scripture doesn’t address the issue, then a final mercy by God to perfect us into heavenly beings wouldn’t contradict them. Scripture says we are imperfect here but perfect in heaven, so you know the purification has to happen. Right?

What purification are you speaking of? Where do the scriptures speak of some kind of purifcation after death of a person?

I’m sorry justasking, I just fail to follow you on this. First it was Christ’s death was all we needed in post 30, then you added confession, and now confession + the Resurrection too.

Christ by His death and resurrection for our sins made it possible for us to be saved completely. To benefit from this a person must first see himself as a sinner and that Jesus is the only who can save him by His death and resurrection for his sins. At that point that person is saved. Paul makes this point in I Corinthians 15:1-4.
After this, this person will continue to sin. When he does sin he must confess them to God and ask forgiveness.

Why not a final act of mercy by God to purify us to perfection for heaven? Remember, this all goes back to you saying that purgatory denies the sufficiency of Christ’s death on the cross, but it sounds like you do too. No?

The “final act” already happened on the cross. Colossians makes this clear in 2:13-14 where he writes;
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Since all our transgressions have been forgiven at the cross, there is no need for any further “purification”.

 

[MarcoPolo]

What purification are you speaking of? Where do the scriptures speak of some kind of purifcation after death of a person?

Even if you don’t believe the Scripture other posters have provided, I repeat again: Scripture says we are imperfect here but perfect in heaven, so you know God has to perfect us after death. If there is another way around it, I have already welcomed you to speculate how we become “perfect” beings. Perfect. Perfect heavenly beings. I ask that you don’t again attempt to describe how we become saved, earthly beings.

And my only point with regards to the rest of your post is that even you admit that Christ’s death is not the “only” thing necessary. So the notion of “Purgatory denies the sufficiency of the Crucifixion” is a non sequitur.

ASIDE:
If you are really interested in what the Catholic Church teaches about the meaning of the Crucifixion, I recommend reading the Catechism’s paragraphs 613-618 and surrounding paragraphs.

Christ by His death and resurrection for our sins made it possible for us to be saved completely.

Exactly! He “made it possible.” The door was opened and we must journey to walk through it. And stay through it. I could give you all kinds of Scripture for this if you wanted.

But like you said, even the saved person has sin in his life after “being saved.” So with respect, if you don’t will not speculate how the saved person who still sins is transformed, after death, into the perfect, non-sin-prone eternal being, then I will withdraw.