If you don't believe in Purgatory....

[believers]

Maybe Adam’s sin was a grave one, and not the same as stealing
a French fry from your friends Happy meal.

When Adam sinned, his disobedience makes you just as guilty whether you steal a french fry or not. Adam’s sin was imputed to you.

 

[AlegreFe]

When Adam sinned, his disobedience makes you just as guilty whether you steal a french fry or not.

Then how do you explain this verse in Sacred Scripture?

1 John 5:17 (ESV)
17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

And this one… ?

John 19:11 (ESV)
11 Jesus answered him, “You would have
no authority over me at all unless it had
been given you from above.
Therefore he who delivered me over to
you has the greater sin.”

Adam’s sin was imputed to you.

This is called “original sin” and we are all born with it, so we agree here. But this “original sin” was forgiven when I was baptized. Now I sin all on my own and I cannot get baptized again because there is only ONE Baptism. That is why Jesus gave the authority to forgive sins to the Apostles and they passed on that authority to all ordained Priests. I thank God for the Sacrament of His Divine Mercy (my siggy), Confession!

There is only ONE Church that Jesus Christ founded. The teachings of Christ subsist in the Catholic Church! Whatever teachings are in whatever Protestant denomination and does NOT go against the teachings of Christ, were taken from the Catholic Church.

Ephesians 4:4-6 (ESV)
4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as
you were called to the one hope that belongs
to your call—
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all
and through all and in all.

Authority given to Apostles by Jesus to forgive sins:

John 20:21-23 (ESV)
21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be
with you. As the Father has sent me,
even so I am sending you.”
22 And when he had said this, he breathed
on them and said to them, “Receive the
Holy Spirit.
23 If you forgive the sins of any,
they are forgiven them; if you withhold
forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

 

[holy_wood]

When Adam sinned, his disobedience makes you just as guilty whether you steal a french fry or not. Adam’s sin was imputed to you.

You do not believe in Mortal or Venial sin then please explain these versus

1 John 5:16-17

If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I suppose you can categorize YOUR sins, you have free will to do so. However, the Word of God is clear as to what happened to ALL of mankind when ADAM disobeyed God. God cannot lie and His Word does not contradict.

Rom 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

Ok…but I’m not seeing anywhere here your understanding of 1 John 5:17 and John 19:11, which is what I had asked.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Ok…but I’m not seeing anywhere here your understanding of 1 John 5:17 and John 19:11, which is what I had asked.

I doubt he will answer concerning 1 John 5:17. If he does respond, it will take a while because he may be searching for a rebuttal…

 

[BrandenRush]

I was wondering if someone who does not believe in Purgatory could answer this compound question:

Earthly beings are prone to sin. Heavenly beings are not.

So the question is:
***How/when is a sin-prone mortal transformed into a non-sin-prone eternal being? How does that happen? ***

Any answer is welcome…even speculation.

Easy. You are saved by grace through faith. Nothing else matters.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Easy. You are saved by grace through faith. Nothing else matters.

Yes but my question is in regards to us becoming “unable” to sin in the afterlife. So how would you suppose that happens after we die?

Unless you think you are now as you would be in heaven.

 

[BrandenRush]

Yes but my question is in regards to us becoming “unable” to sin in the afterlife. So how would you suppose that happens after we die?

Unless you think you are now as you would be in heaven.

no, I think that the fallen nature of man no longer will have effect on us when we are in Heaven.

 

[MarcoPolo]

no, I think that the fallen nature of man no longer will have effect on us when we are in Heaven.

So then you think we ARE transformed somehow…

 

[BrandenRush]

So then you think we ARE transformed somehow…

I am sure that we will be by God but mostly we will not be affected by our fallen nature anymore. The urge and temptation to sin will be gone.

 

[Philothea53]

Uh< i would have to answer that question as being saved according to what scripture says, by grace through faith in Christ.

So, Branden, do you then believe that everyone is going to Heaven? That believing is enough? Nothing else is required?

I know a lot of people who believe in God but aren’t necessarily living like it. They would be really happy to have your answer to this.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I am sure that we will be by God but mostly we will not be affected by our fallen nature anymore. The urge and temptation to sin will be gone.

Ok, thanks, but I still see a transition taking place in your answer.

i.e. when you say “anymore”

 

[believers]

I doubt he will answer concerning 1 John 5:17. If he does respond, it will take a while because he may be searching for a rebuttal…

You’re a funny guy. You never cease to amuse me.

 

[believers]

Ok…but I’m not seeing anywhere here your understanding of 1 John 5:17 and John 19:11, which is what I had asked.

1 John 5:17
All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Did you see that? ALL unrighteousness is sin. Does it say this sin is mortal and that sin is venial? No.

Then God says “there is a sin not unto death.”

We already know that there is a sin unto death and that would be to blaspheme the Holy Ghost. Apparently, God will take your life if you blaspheme the Holy Ghost. And, you will not be forgiven in this life nor in hell.

Remember the story of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts chapter 5? They died immediately for blaspheming the Holy Ghost. No doubt there in hell and will not be forgiven there either.

Sin not unto death would be those sins that don’t blaspheme the Holy Ghost.

 

[believers]

So, Branden, do you then believe that everyone is going to Heaven? That believing is enough? Nothing else is required?

I know a lot of people who believe in God but aren’t necessarily living like it. They would be really happy to have your answer to this.

What is your definition of believe? Or, what exactly do you think a protestant means when they say you must believe?

 

[believers]

So then you think we ARE transformed somehow…

Turn to Jesus in faith, crucify your sinful nature “old man” with Christ, turn away from sin (repent), renew your mind with the Word of God. You MUST be born-again.

 

[believers]

You do not believe in Mortal or Venial sin then please explain these versus

1 John 5:16-17

Jhn 19:11
Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin

There is greater and lesser sin but sin is still sin. If you are not justified, Adam’s sin is imputed and the judgment of death.

I believe there are different types and degrees of torment in hell. Where one goes and how much one is tormented is dependent upon the sins they have committed while on earth.

 

[RevDrNorth]

Turn to Jesus in faith, crucify your sinful nature “old man” with Christ, turn away from sin (repent), renew your mind with the Word of God. You MUST be born-again.

Certainly a Catholic (in Union with Rome) can be born again. Somehow we got this innovative Protestant evangelical view of being born again. Within the context of the RCC faith the faithful Catholics can indeed be born again.

Rev North

 

[MarcoPolo]

1 John 5:17
All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Did you see that? ALL unrighteousness is sin.

Yes, I see that. Thank you for pointing it out.

Then God says “there is a sin not unto death.”

We already know that there is a sin unto death and that would be to blaspheme the Holy Ghost.

Sin not unto death would be those sins that don’t blaspheme the Holy Ghost.

I think this is good. You now have defined your own 2 categories of sin. Regular sin vs. Sin against the Holy Spirit. So even you have your version of venial and mortal sin (i.e. sin not unto death and sin unto death).

I don’t think you are as far removed with Catholic teaching as you think, just from reading a single passage.

As well, remember that blasphemy against the Spirit is the sin that won’t be forgiven. God can forgive all sins. So what is blasphemy against the Spirit? Some speculate impenitence or deliberate rejection of God, which indeed is a mortal sin.

Further, the Catholic teaching of mortal sin (Catechism paragraph 1857) involves 3 parts: sin that is of “grave matter”; the person has “knowledge” that it’s a sin; and fully “consents” to the sin.

Some examples of “grave matter” in mortal sin are in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10: “Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Then there’s the matter of the person having knowledge that he’s sinning: See Luke 12:47-48 “That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.” (Notice how the punishment varies for lesser guilt/greater guilt.)

And James 1:15 explains the full consent of the person toward such sins: “Then desire conceives and brings forth sin, and when sin reaches maturity it gives birth to death.”

So I think you are right there, believers, in understanding that this teaching is quite Scriptural.

 

[justasking4]

Even if you don’t believe the Scripture other posters have provided, I repeat again: Scripture says we are imperfect here but perfect in heaven, so you know God has to perfect us after death. If there is another way around it, I have already welcomed you to speculate how we become “perfect” beings. Perfect. Perfect heavenly beings. I ask that you don’t again attempt to describe how we become saved, earthly beings.

And my only point with regards to the rest of your post is that even you admit that Christ’s death is not the “only” thing necessary. So the notion of “Purgatory denies the sufficiency of the Crucifixion” is a non sequitur.

ASIDE:
If you are really interested in what the Catholic Church teaches about the meaning of the Crucifixion, I recommend reading the Catechism’s paragraphs 613-618 and surrounding paragraphs.

Exactly! He “made it possible.” The door was opened and we must journey to walk through it. And stay through it. I could give you all kinds of Scripture for this if you wanted.

But like you said, even the saved person has sin in his life after “being saved.” So with respect, if you don’t will not speculate how the saved person who still sins is transformed, after death, into the perfect, non-sin-prone eternal being, then I will withdraw.

Paul in Romans 7 makes the case in verse 14-24 that his struggle is not with sinning from his spirit but from his flesh. It is the flesh that is not redeemed. The scriptures do teach that we will get new resurrected bodies in which this sin principle that Paul mentions will not be part of these new bodies. We will no longer struggle with sin in the next life sin it will be done away with and have no part in our resurrected bodies.