If you have studied the Catholic Church & her Teachings from sources within the Catholic Church and as a result you did not become Catholic, Please Po

[MariaG]

And many, many like myself who know what you teach and just dont believe it. I left the Catholic Church because that is how God lead me.
I dont expect you to believe it but then I dont care if you do.
I will give you one small example. You claim you( not you personally but Catholics in general) dont worship saints or statues. Yet I have seen it with my own eyes. When I tell and even show pictures of what I have seen I am told but I dont know the heart of the individual.
That is boulderdash.

And I have seen Protestants not batting an eye over adultery, yet would never try to claim that Protestants teach that adultery is okay.

Nowhere in the teaching of the Catholic church that it is okay to worship anything/one but God alone.

Unfortunately for me, I actually do care what you think, which is why I spend time here on these forums trying my best to shine the light of Christ’s truth in the hearts of those who may have turned away from Him and His Church.

God led me to the Catholic Church and it is there that I will stay. Clearly, one of us has been misled. And as you seem to claim that the Catholic Church teaches something that she does not teach, worship of saints and statues, it would appear as you based your “leading” on a lie. The Holy Spirit is not a liar, but Satan surely is. Think carefully on who “led” you when it is quite clear from the teaching of the Catholic Church that no one should worship anyone but God alone.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

I agree with your take on it Maria. Obedience to the moral the issues is a big one and it sad to see them move onto to those denominations that support divorce and birth control and they blame the Church, unable to take responsibility for their sin. Hopefully they will return to the whole truth as so many, in the past,have done.

One can only pray so.

As for the the Catholics who tell us of their complete education in Catholic schools, who leave and find salvation elsewhere, I believe in most cases their education can’t seem to find its way from the head into the heart which is where it really must end up. But then that is not only the experience of some Catholic Christians, but Protestant Christians also. Carlan

Absolutely. And is a failing in the Catholic education in the last 50 years or so. Maybe not, maybe just a stubborn generation since it affects more than just Catholics:shrug:

 

[higherednerd]

The problem with the Immaculate Conception is that if we make the circumstances of Christ’s birth too “special” then we are in danger of compromising His humanity. I was always taught that the whole point of the Incarnation was that Jesus was fully human and fully God, that to veer off in either direction was an error. The notion of a celebate marriage also flies in the face of the doctrine that the marriage bed is pure: i.e. no sin is incurred through marital relations, just the opposite. In fact, in Judaism, marital sexual relations are a mitzvah. And, Joseph and Mary were Jews. The Bible also has several references to siblings of Jesus, although they may have been born to Joseph in a former marriage. The most natural interpretation of the references is that they refer to natural siblings.

 

[MariaG]

The problem with the Immaculate Conception is that if we make the circumstances of Christ’s birth too “special” then we are in danger of compromising His humanity.

God became Man. That is a pretty special thing. No one compromises His humanity by its specialness, but frequently His fully God is lost when we fail to emphasize the specialness of his birth as we can see from the heresies throughout the years of christianity that have taught the heresy that Christ is not part of a triune God. (Modern one that comes to mind is Jehovah Witness).

I was always taught that the whole point of the Incarnation was that Jesus was fully human and fully God, that to veer off in either direction was an error.

Let me see. God gives detailed instructions on how to build a vessel that carries His word in the Old Testament but you don’t think He would take special care to build a vessel that would carry the Word in the New?

The notion of a celebate marriage also flies in the face of the doctrine that the marriage bed is pure: i.e. no sin is incurred through marital relations, just the opposite. In fact, in Judaism, marital sexual relations are a mitzvah. And, Joseph and Mary were Jews.

It is not that it would be a sin in the sense you are saying simply that no one should touch the vessel that carries the Word of God, no matter what form the Word comes in.

The Bible also has several references to siblings of Jesus, although they may have been born to Joseph in a former marriage. The most natural interpretation of the references is that they refer to natural siblings

I am so out of time, but if you look under my name and at all of my posts you will find a thread speaking on this very issue with detailed analysis by Randy Carson of it. It is quite clear from scripture that they were not children of Mary, the Mother of Jesus.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[higherednerd]

There are plenty of other instances where holy things get touched, carried around, etc. And I don’t see how Mary being a normal woman in a normal marriage would be unclean or unholy in any way. If Jesus was to enter the human condition, why would He need a special door? If His mother had to be different, why not everything else about His life? The woman who touched His robe wasn’t struck dead. She was healed.

 

[Hisalone]

And I have seen Protestants not batting an eye over adultery, yet would never try to claim that Protestants teach that adultery is okay.

Nowhere in the teaching of the Catholic church that it is okay to worship anything/one but God alone.

Unfortunately for me, I actually do care what you think, which is why I spend time here on these forums trying my best to shine the light of Christ’s truth in the hearts of those who may have turned away from Him and His Church.

God led me to the Catholic Church and it is there that I will stay. Clearly, one of us has been misled. And as you seem to claim that the Catholic Church teaches something that she does not teach, worship of saints and statues, it would appear as you based your “leading” on a lie. The Holy Spirit is not a liar, but Satan surely is. Think carefully on who “led” you when it is quite clear from the teaching of the Catholic Church that no one should worship anyone but God alone.

God Bless,
Maria

Why do you say one of us has been misled?
You deny that God can call different people to different places?
The Catholic Church does not teach worhip of anyone besides God however you and virtually every Catholic I have know tolerates it. Why do you tolerate idolatry?
I am quite sure of my leading. As God does not decieve. If you say otherewise then you become a deciever.

 

[TheosisM]

Hisalone , I don’t think you can judge a person kneeling in prayer in front of a statue or crucifix to be worshiping wood or plaster. For heavens sake open the mind to common sense.:nope:Carlan

You don’t know how many times people on CARM would post a picture of this and say “LOOK! Proof that they worship idols!”

The ex-Catholics (or insert any religion here) always know better, or what we really believe and practice.

 

[Hisalone]

You don’t know how many times people on CARM would post a picture of this and say “LOOK! Proof that they worship idols!”

The ex-Catholics (or insert any religion here) always know better, or what we really believe and practice.

In this case I say sadly that it is so.

 

[Carlan]

Why do you say one of us has been misled?
You deny that God can call different people to different places?
The Catholic Church does not teach worhip of anyone besides God
however you and virtually every Catholic I have know tolerates it. Why do you tolerate idolatry
I am quite sure of my leading. As God does not decieve. If you say otherewise then you become a deciever.

Hisalone, I am an 83year old Catholic and have never in my long life met or known of any Catholic who worshiped Saints or tolerates such, I have never known or believe that any Catholic practices idol worship. People who spreads such nonsense are ignorant.Carlan

 

[puzzleannie]

Since you are asking…

I do not believe that the relationship between Catholics and Protestants is one of “one true church” that “possesses the fulness of truth” versus “ecclesiastical communities but not the church” that believe the “heresy of Protestantism”.

If I became convinced that this relationship is actually the truth, every other point of Catholicism that I also am unconvinced of would all of a sudden become moot.

thank you, I think this is also very helpful, if someone can arrive at the point where he can state “if I could resolve this difficulty, or accept this teaching, everything else would fall into place.”

In my experience this point seems to hinge on either the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, or in the authority of the Pope and magesterium. The other issues like Mary, sacraments etc. seem to hinge on resolving these. anyone agree or disagree?

also I don’t think this is the thread for trying to convince someone who offers an honest answer that they are wrong, it would be much better and more helpful to launch a spin-off thread on the appropriate apologetics sub-forum for each contention.

I forgot to ask before, and one of the earlier posters mentioned feeling left out, as a young single adult, if anyone else has experienced non-doctrinal issues, like lack of fellowship as they felt it in their former or new congregations, or other issues with the parish or community itself.

 

[MariaG]

There are plenty of other instances where holy things get touched, carried around, etc. And I don’t see how Mary being a normal woman in a normal marriage would be unclean or unholy in any way. If Jesus was to enter the human condition, why would He need a special door? If His mother had to be different, why not everything else about His life? The woman who touched His robe wasn’t struck dead. She was healed.

I am sorry that you cannot see the beautiful scritural typology of Mary and the Ark:shrug:

It has nothing to do with something about marriage being unholy. But has everything to do with who Christ was. You truly cannot see that if God would strike a man dead for ACCIDENTLY touching the vessel that carried His holy word, that He would not do the same to a man who purposely touched the vessel that carried The Holy Word?

And the woman touching Jesus has absolutely nothing to do with anything as pertains to this.

However, I fear we stray too far from the subject of this thread. If you wish to go into this more indepth, we can start a new thread on it.

Respectfully,
Maria

 

[higherednerd]

This is protestantism, and we just don’t see it that way. To us, the miracle of the Incarnation hinges on Mary being a normal human being. Exemplary, certainly. Besides, does this mean that Joseph and all other human beings would have NO physical contact with her? What about her mother when she was a little girl? What about if she brushed against someone passing by in a crowded street? I don’t think people are bad for believing in the Immaculate Conception, but I just think it causes more problems and questions than it answers. If we go with the Ark metaphor, we can’t just rule out sexual contact with her husband.

 

[MariaG]

Why do you say one of us has been misled?

Because one of us was led into the Catholic Church and one was led out of it. If the Catholic Church has false teachings, then the Holy Spirit would not lead someone into it. If the Catholic Church contains the truth of Christ, the Holy Spirit would not lead someone out of it.

You deny that God can call different people to different places?

Nope. But I doubt that the Lord would lead anyone out of the truth and into falsehood. And either you are right or I am right. Both believe we were led by the Holy Spirit. Yet you believe the Catholic Church teaches what? False teachings? or just toleration of false worship? If it was just tolerates false worship, I suppose the Holy Spirit could lead me into that Church but I get the idea that you believe there is more than just tolerating false worship? Or is that all it is?

And for me, I believe that the Protestant Churches while they are in fact Christian, they contain false teachings.

The Catholic Church does not teach worhip of anyone besides God however you and virtually every Catholic I have know tolerates it. Why do you tolerate idolatry?

Tolerate idolarty? NO! I nor any Catholic I know tolerates idolatry.

I am quite sure of my leading. As God does not decieve. If you say otherewise then you become a deciever.

God does not deceive, you are correct. But if both of us are correct, if both of us were truly led by the Holy Spirit as we both believe, then one of us was led into a church that teaches falsehood and the other to one that tolerates the breaking of the first commandment.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

This is protestantism, and we just don’t see it that way. To us, the miracle of the Incarnation hinges on Mary being a normal human being. Exemplary, certainly. Besides, does this mean that Joseph and all other human beings would have NO physical contact with her? What about her mother when she was a little girl? What about if she brushed against someone passing by in a crowded street? I don’t think people are bad for believing in the Immaculate Conception, but I just think it causes more problems and questions than it answers. If we go with the Ark metaphor, we can’t just rule out sexual contact with her husband.

Again, this should be in a thread of its own. Would you like me to start it? Ask the moderator to put our posts there?

I would be happy to continue this in a thread of its own

If not, you may wish to think and research what Luther believed about Mary. You might be surprised to realize that he would vemenently disagree with you.

 

[higherednerd]

Yes, let’s have a thread, but I would also like to add that if it had been any other couple than Mary and Joseph, their marriage would be subject to annulment under Catholic law, if they married with no intent to live according to the pattern of marriage (i.e. physical intimacy).

 

[MariaG]

Yes, let’s have a thread, but I would also like to add that if it had been any other couple than Mary and Joseph, their marriage would be subject to annulment under Catholic law, if they married with no intent to live according to the pattern of marriage (i.e. physical intimacy).

I PM the moderator and asked for our posts to be split. If it doesn’t get done, I will try to do so soon.

I have to go now. Maybe later tonight. But I won’t be on tmrw.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[AmateurPianist]

thank you, I think this is also very helpful, if someone can arrive at the point where he can state “if I could resolve this difficulty, or accept this teaching, everything else would fall into place.”

In my experience this point seems to hinge on either the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, or in the authority of the Pope and magesterium. The other issues like Mary, sacraments etc. seem to hinge on resolving these. anyone agree or disagree?

Just think about this logically.

Suppose for a minute that the Catholic church is correct in this matter. The Catholic church is in fact the “one true church”. The Orthodox being in schism and not being in submission to the Bishop of Rome are in schism and are not. The Protestants believe heresy and are not.

This is true from God’s perspective.

Then it would be highly unlikely that the source of faith that Catholicism has in respect to tradition and papal infallability would be incorrect. I say highly unlikely because while B does not necessarily follow from A, you would have to question how A could be true and the church then be incorrect in B.

Then if the church is correct in respect to its source of faith, everything else that it proclaims must be true based on its source of faith.

I obviously disagree with the premise, however.

 

[Hisalone]

Because one of us was led into the Catholic Church and one was led out of it. If the Catholic Church has false teachings, then the Holy Spirit would not lead someone into it. If the Catholic Church contains the truth of Christ, the Holy Spirit would not lead someone out of it.
**
God in His mercy places people where they will best serve Him. In my old Baltimore Catecism it said we were made to know, love and serve God. God sees us as individuals and knows our needs and how we will respond to Him. There is salvation both inside and outside the Catholic Church God in His mercy desires both your and my salvation and will place us where that best will be accomplished. The more I know God the more I am convinced that the false paradymn of “One True Church” that Catholics feel is so important has no meaning to HIm…**

Nope. But I doubt that the Lord would lead anyone out of the truth and into falsehood. And either you are right or I am right. Both believe we were led by the Holy Spirit. Yet you believe the Catholic Church teaches what? False teachings? or just toleration of false worship? If it was just tolerates false worship, I suppose the Holy Spirit could lead me into that Church but I get the idea that you believe there is more than just tolerating false worship? Or is that all it is?

Papal infallibility, Marian Doctrine, Purgatory.You can believe these things and still be saved. Or you can not believe these things and still be saved. But I am of the latter group.

And for me, I believe that the Protestant Churches while they are in fact Christian, they contain false teachings.

And I believe the Catholic Church is under the umbrella of Christian Churches even if it does have false teachings and beliefs.

Tolerate idolarty? NO! I nor any Catholic I know tolerates idolatry.

You do everytime you defend a Catholic who kneels before a statue, lights a candle and prays to St Jude.

God does not deceive, you are correct. But if both of us are correct, if both of us were truly led by the Holy Spirit as we both believe, then one of us was led into a church that teaches falsehood and the other to one that tolerates the breaking of the first commandment.

I believe my above answers are sufficent.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[puzzleannie]

since we seem to insist on turning this thread into off-topic apologetics debates on various topics, rather than inviting honest answers w/o judgement or criticism to OP’s question, hasta la vista

 

[Hisalone]

since we seem to insist on turning this thread into off-topic apologetics debates on various topics, rather than inviting honest answers w/o judgement or criticism to OP’s question, hasta la vista

I have not known of an OP who poses a question like this one not to have an agenda, It is not about attempting to find out what others believe but to have a starting point to attempt to prove them wrong and get forumpoints or debating stars credited to heir account.