If you have studied the Catholic Church & her Teachings from sources within the Catholic Church and as a result you did not become Catholic, Please Po

[sckcd]

Because, Sckcd, We are the Body of Christ the Church which he instiututed when he returned to the Father and sent the Holy Spirit to guide it into all truth.
The Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ. The Church is his Body he is the Head. When the Holy Spirit was sent He breathed His Breath into the Apostles and sent them forth to teach all men the truth.H e has done what the Father wanted down through the ages through his Church and he will continue to draw all men into truth until the end of time.:thumbsup:Carlan

But how can I know things haven’t been skewed through the ages? Were there not corrupt popes and practices way back when? If the church was always as pure as it was in the first century I would be able to accept things easier, but I know there were instances of corruption, so how can I trust teachings that were added through the years?

 

[CradleCath]

Hello Dance

**My first response to this thread was that I dont believe what Catholics tell me about themselves. **

 

[Carlan]

But how can I know things haven’t been skewed through the ages? Were there not corrupt popes and practices way back when? If the church was always as pure as it was in the first century I would be able to accept things easier, but I know there were instances of corruption, so how can I trust teachings that were added through the years?

Well, Councils have always been convened to determine the provision of canon law and dogma.The Holy Spirit was promised to be with the Church until the end of time to guide the Hierarchy in all truth.
Yes their were corrupt Popes who have committed much personal sin. But as far as faith and morals are concerned the Holy Spirit was there to guide the Hierarchy of the Church in Gods will. The Popes infallibility only pertains to faith and morals.WE are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God when we sin we must repent and seek reconciliation, no exceptions if we don’t, we pay the consequences. Popes included.:sad_yes:>
Sclcd i am not an Apologist but I have done the best I can to address your concerns. I hope it helps . Perhaps theRCIA instructors would be much more articulate that God bless you on your journey and that you for sharing here at CA.:thumbsup:Carlan

 

[CradleCath]

I came fairly close, probably within the last year, to seriously considering reverting to Catholicism. While I agree with Catholic teaching on most everything when they stick to the scriptures, I’m afraid I cannot accept any doctrines from pretty much any council or church father as authoritative, but rather merely useful.

My main hang-up is that Jesus promised the Apostles would be led into all truth by the Holy Spirit:

John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

So, I’m left with a choice: either the Apostles were led into all truth (i.e. those truths which are necessary for life, godliness, salvation, etc.) OR the Catholic church has continued to reveal new doctrines and “truths” down through the ages. I’m afraid it’s a rather easy choice.

No. The Church teaches that DIVINE REVELATION ended with the death of St. John…the last Apostle to die. All that we need to know of God, to follow His Laws, to spend eternity with Him in Heaven had been revealed by the time of John’s death. However, we believe in both the written word & the spoken words of the Apostles, those Christ taught personally. From Timothy… “hold to traditions which you have learned, whether by word or by our letter”

What we call Tradition (with a capital T) was handed down, by word of mouth, by letters the apostles had written to one another. For instance the Didache. It was written in the year 96 AD., during the early years of the Church…during the time that most of our Popes were martyred for their faith.
St. Peter yrs.(32-67)
St. Linus (67-76)
St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
St. Clement I (88-97)
St. Evaristus (97-105)
St. Alexander I (105-115)

earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

There were so much that those who left the Church **15 CENTURIES **after Christ did not know, or would not accept. So much was lost to our Protestant brothers & sisters.

 

[rick43235]

T

Thanks Elvisman, you know your stuff, keep up the good work.:thumbsup:Carlan

**I have to agree. You seem to have an especially firm grasp on all the Catholic myths and fables.

OUCH
**

 

[josie_L]

I have to agree. You seem to have an especially firm grasp on all the Catholic myths and fables.

OUCH

Does your wife know that you look upon her beliefs as myths and fables (especially now that you’re going to mass)?

 

[elvisman]

I have to agree. You seem to have an especially firm grasp on all the Catholic myths and fables.

OUCH

Gosh - that really hurt my feelings . . .

Name the myth or fable to which you are referring - if you can.

 

[ckempston]

To that, I would add:
1 Tim. 3:15
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Has anybody else ever told you that your unnecessary and excessive use of different fonts, colors, and sizes make your posts difficult to even read? Perhaps this is a cover that you use to make it difficult for people to respond to you so you can claim they just couldn’t answer your points?

I obviously have no beef with the fact that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. The fact that you think it scores some big point for Catholicism is simply weird. The church is indeed the pillar and foundation of truth, but that doesn’t give it the authority to ADD more truth as it goes along. Pillars and foundations hold things up (i.e. the truth). They do not add to them. This doesn’t help the Catholic position in the least.

**Notice, the Scriptures themselves say the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of truth - NOT Scripture . . . **OUCH!!

Yeah, I gotcha. Doesn’t “hurt” in the least.

They ALSO put Tradition on par with the Scriptures:

Ok. You obviously, again, think there is some grand significance to this. What you conclude from it is a non sequitur, which I have learned from years of debating with Catholics, is their favorite fallacy.

2 Thess. 2:15
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

2 Tim. 2:2
"What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also".

1 Cor. 11:2
"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you".

Amen. Your point? You can just rattle off passages and pretend they support your assertions, but they don’t. That’s the problem.

Irenaeus
The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said (Against Heresies 1:10 A.D. 189]).
Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account we are bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the things pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth. For how stands the case? Suppose there should arise a dispute relative to some important question among us. Should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary [in that case] to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the churches? (ibid. 3:4).

---

OUCH!!

Ok. This is all well and good, but still doesn’t support the Catholic assertion, which is that it can dig around, find some vague reference to some concept or another, say that it was universally held by the church, and call it the teaching of the Apostles. Anybody who falls for that is naive.

The vast disagreement of the early churches proves that the Catholic church has very little ability, beyond what we are fairly certain are the New Testament scriptures, to distinguish what is “Tradition” and what is just some Bishop’s personal opinion.

If I have seen it once, I have seen it a thousand times - you ask for the earliest possible evidence of some Marian doctrine. Catholics will invariably quote some vague passage from a church father in which Mary was merely peripherally mentioned, and from this develop some grand doctrine that has no relation to the quoted text whatsoever.

 

[sckcd]

Has anybody else ever told you that your unnecessary and excessive use of different fonts, colors, and sizes make your posts difficult to even read?
.

I **have **to say **I totally agree on this point. ** It’s very, very distracting when reading and random words are colored. Words should be colored for emphasis.

 

[ckempston]

ckempston;5931347:

Has anybody else ever told you that your unnecessary and excessive use of different fonts, colors, and sizes make your posts difficult to even read?
.

I have to say I totally agree on this point. It’s very, very distracting when reading and random words are colored. Words should be colored for emphasis.

It’s very difficult to read once you “quote” it to respond to it.

However, after some more searching it seems there is a button to remove all formatting. God bless the programmers at CAF.

 

[CradleCath]

Passing truth along is quite different from inventing new doctrines, which is what the Catholic church has done. Nobody in the first century ever heard of homoousious, the Queen of Heaven, the co-Redemptrix, Papal Infallability, or any other such man-made belief. Even if some Catholic doctrines are not contrary to the teachings of the Apostles, that does not make them true or necessary. Prior to his death on the cross, Jesus taught his followers to place no special significance upon his mother, which is the exact opposite of what Catholics do. How is this “teaching those same truths he revealed?”

Please give a reference to the Scripture that says “Jesus taught His followers to place no special significance upon His Mother”. As I read Scripture, He made specific arrangements for her care before He died. . After recalling the presence of Mary and the other women at the Lord’s cross, St John relates: “When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, ‘Woman, behold, your son!’. Then he said to the disciple, 'Behold, your mother!’” (Jn 19:26-27).

These particularly moving words reveal the deep sentiments of the dying Christ and contain a great wealth of meaning for Christian faith and spirituality. At the end of his earthly life, as he addressed his Mother and the disciple he loved, the crucified Messiah establishes a new relationship of love between Mary and Christians.

ThE first Council of Ephesus began in the year 431 AD. to counter the heresy of Nestorius, bishop of Constantinople. Nestorius taught that Christ was actually a sinner. That, because of His “two” natures, the man nature was a sinner as we all are. He was trying to actually split Christ into 2 people & claimed that Mary gave birth to only the “man”. Consequently, according to the Nestorians, Mary should be called Christotokos, Greek for the “birth giver of Christ” and not Theotokos, Greek for the “birth giver of God”. Cyril argued that Nestorianism split Jesus in half and denied that he was both human and divine. The council proclaimed that Mary was to be called, instead…the Theotokos, Greek for the “birth giver of God”. This is how the Orthodox Churches describe her to this day.

As you can see, the honor we give to the Virgin is as old as the Church itself & was addressed often in the Acts of the Apostles. In the disciples’ eyes, as they gathered after the Ascension, the title “Mother of Jesus” acquires its full meaning. For them, Mary is a person unique in her kind: she received the singular grace of giving birth to the Saviour of humanity; she lived for a long while at his side; and on Calvary she was called by the Crucified One to exercise a “new motherhood”. These were the feelings of the Christians of that time, handed down sometimes in Scripture (written word), sometimes by the spoken word of the Apostles & the Disciples of Christ.

 

[elvisman]

Has anybody else ever told you that your unnecessary and excessive use of different fonts, colors, and sizes make your posts difficult to even read? Perhaps this is a cover that you use to make it difficult for people to respond to you so you can claim they just couldn’t answer your points?

Yes, they have. Usually people who can’t come up with a better argument than, "I find your colors distracting."

I obviously have no beef with the fact that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. The fact that you think it scores some big point for Catholicism is simply weird. The church is indeed the pillar and foundation of truth, but that doesn’t give it the authority to ADD more truth as it goes along. Pillars and foundations hold things up (i.e. the truth). They do not add to them. This doesn’t help the Catholic position in the least.

Then listen to the words of Jesus on the matter:
John 16:12-15
**"I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. **
**But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. ****He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. **
Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.

Yeah, I gotcha. Doesn’t “hurt” in the least.
Ok. You obviously, again, think there is some grand significance to this. What you conclude from it is a non sequitur, which I have learned from years of debating with Catholics, is their favorite fallacy.
Amen. Your point? You can just rattle off passages and pretend they support your assertions, but they don’t. That’s the problem.

Ahhh - the old, "I’m rubber, you’re glue - whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you" routine.
The last bastion of the truly desperate . . .

Ok. This is all well and good, but still doesn’t support the Catholic assertion, which is that it can dig around, find some vague reference to some concept or another, say that it was universally held by the church, and call it the teaching of the Apostles. Anybody who falls for that is naive.

The vast disagreement of the early churches proves that the Catholic church has very little ability, beyond what we are fairly certain are the New Testament scriptures, to distinguish what is “Tradition” and what is just some Bishop’s personal opinion.

**The funny thing about the disagreements and heresies in the Early Church - they were settled by the Authoritative decisions and decrees of the Church. Your apparent lack of faith in the promises of Christ to his Church are very telling.

If I have seen it once, I have seen it a thousand times - you ask for the earliest possible evidence of some Marian doctrine. Catholics will invariably quote some vague passage from a church father in which Mary was merely peripherally mentioned, and from this develop some grand doctrine that has no relation to the quoted text whatsoever.

"Vague" references?
I think I’ve showed you some rather explicit ones at that.
Look - we have the Scriptures, the Early Church Fathers, the declarations and decrees of the councils, the creeds, history, etc.

As I stated in an earlier post to yet another anti-Catholic:
All you have is a short 500 year history of rebellion, confusion, perpetually splintering denominations - and arrogance.**

 

[DocProct]

This is ***not ***a thread for people who have only obtained & researched information about the Catholic Church from non-Catholic sources.

I did not because the doctrines and practices are not in line with the mouth of God. Jesus said, “that man will not live by bread alone, but by every word the proceeds from the mouth of God”. This also makes the case as to why Protestants adhere to the Scripture in my opinion, which is worthless.

 

[CradleCath]

It is inappropriate. Mary is presumably in heaven, but she can neither hear my prayers, nor influence the answering of them, because she is neither omniscient nor omnipotent.

As the Father’s choice from all time to be the mother of his only begotten Son and our Savior, Mary deserves to be called Blessed, as she said, but nothing more.

Do* you *give my mother attention and love? No, you don’t. She’s not your mother.

No, I do not…but then you aren’t God. If you came into this world to suffer & die for my sins…I would give special attention & love to your Mother.

 

[CradleCath]

**But how can I know things haven’t been skewed through the ages? **

You can’t unless you believe that our Church is protected from false teachings re. faith & morals…protected as Christ promised:

13 And Jesus came into the region of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples: who do people say that the Son of man is?
14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 **Jesus said to them: But who do you say I am? **

 

[ckempston]

Yes, they have. Usually people who can’t come up with a better argument than, “I find your colors distracting.”

Your criticism would be warranted if this is all I wrote. It wasn’t.

Then listen to the words of Jesus on the matter:
John 16:12-15
"I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.
Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.

This supports my position quite explicitly. The Holy Spirit would reveal ALL TRUTH TO THE APOSTLES.

Ahhh - the old, “I’m rubber, you’re glue - whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you” routine.
The last bastion of the truly desperate . . .

Strawman. Totally not what my response was comprised of.

The funny thing about the disagreements and heresies in the Early Church - they were settled by the Authoritative decisions and decrees of the Church. Your apparent lack of faith in the promises of Christ to his Church are very telling.

How long after the Apostles were dead did this first happen (excluding Jerusalem, of course, where there were Apostles present).

“Vague” references?
I think I’ve showed you some rather explicit ones at that.
Look - we have the Scriptures, the Early Church Fathers, the declarations and decrees of the councils, the creeds, history, etc.

300 years after the Apostles were dead is hardly an impressive support for a council on “Apostolic Tradition.” As I have pointed out, the ECFs rarely actually say what Catholics would need them to say to support their doctrines.

As I stated in an earlier post to yet another anti-Catholic:
All you have is a short 500 year history of rebellion, confusion, perpetually splintering denominations - and arrogance.

And all you have is nearly 2000 years of corruption, power grabs, and teachings of man being parroted as the commands of God.

 

[ckempston]

No, I do not…but then you aren’t God. If you came into this world to suffer & die for my sins…I would give special attention & love to your Mother.

Of course you would, and you would still be wrong to do so, because Jesus himself tells us not to put any store in who his physical mother, brothers, or sisters are.

Mark 3:31-35 Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you. Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother."

 

[elvisman]

Your criticism would be warranted if this is all I wrote. It wasn’t.

**Just pointing out a fact about your use of red herrings. Stick to the discussion next time and leave the text formatting alone. It’s silly.
**

This supports my position quite explicitly. The Holy Spirit would reveal ALL TRUTH TO THE APOSTLES.

Yup - the Apostles, who were the Church at the time. He made his promise to the** Church****.
**Strawman. Totally not what my response was comprised of.
**Nope – it was a silly response to an even sillier premise.
**

How long after the Apostles were dead did this first happen (excluding Jerusalem, of course, where there were Apostles present).

**As soon as heresies sprang up their ugly heads.
Docetism *(Christ was not truly human) *– Late 1st Century
Sabellianism (modalism, God in 3 modes) – 2nd Century
**Early enough for ya?

300 years after the Apostles were dead is hardly an impressive support for a council on “Apostolic Tradition.” As I have pointed out, the ECFs rarely actually say what Catholics would need them to say to support their doctrines.

**I already showed you, my angry friend, that they EXPLICITLY wrote about the very things taught by the Catholic Church today.
**

And all you have is nearly 2000 years of corruption, power grabs, and teachings of man being parroted as the commands of God.

**We have the authority given by Christ Himself 2000 years ago:
****Matt. 16:15-19, 18:15-18, John 16:12-15, 20:21-13, 1 Tim. 3:15
**You have the doctrines and precepts of rebellious, spiritually prideful men – 1500 years AFTER Jesus.

 

[sckcd]

You can’t unless you believe that our Church is protected from false teachings re. faith & morals…protected as Christ promised:

 

[CradleCath]

And all you have is nearly 2000 years of corruption, power grabs, and teachings of man being parroted as the commands of God.