If your GF or BF wanted to save kissing for marriage

[Lost_Wanderer]

Are there any standards you believe in that aren’t of their own making?

Ultimately? No. You can be influenced by the standards of others but in the end, only you get to choose the kind of maxim you live by. And if you fail that, do you think it’s so right to blame others for it?

I rather try not to lose my temper like that, but I’ll bet it’s going to happen again.

Ah but if you come to me with a lecture on controlling my temper, do you honestly believe I’ll listen when I know your own history?

A common Christian adage is to live by example. But if examples alone are ought to be given slack, what good is this?

It wouldn’t mean that I don’t believe in chastity. It wouldn’t even make me a hypocrite, because I’m still holding up

Do you at least admit that it doesn’t make you a good example and you at least apologize to anyone who feels disappointed in you? Because this is what I mean by making a case. I can’t just be expected to follow rules when someone not only breaks them but worse, denies that they did.

Most people are trying to live their lives, not to show off their chastity.

Apparently I haven’t met these people. Just people who give off false chastity. And yes, these give me a reason to prove my point.

I’m sure some devout people do an honest work of maintaining chastity but I haven’t met them. Instead, I meet girls who tell me to respect their boundaries all the while they allow other guys to violate them.

The day I stop sticking my hand through their imaginary wall is the day they actually start building one and all the other guys are on the other side with me. (Funny part is that these same guys actually commend me for the scares.)

People tend to live up or down to what’s expected of them. You can see it most clearly in children - children that are stereotyped as lazy or troublemakers don’t work as hard or act up more.

Well I’m afraid my experience has only been the complete opposite. There were days when I hoped that I can finally change because I met someone who would see me differently.

But that day never happened. I never met the kind saint who would turn my life around and save me from the vipers. Instead, I met myself: a man who starved himself because he thought it was the best way to get others to feed him. A man who broke his back and his heart to build other people’s walls at the cost of the stones that made up his own little kingdom.

And what did he get after all that? Absolutely nothing.

That’s why I don’t respect anyone who doesn’t do it for themselves first. Neither should I be expected to respect boundaries that they themselves don’t really believe in.

If people want rules. They should be the first to make them and follow them. I for one don’t make it my job anymore.

 

[PaulinVA]

I would end a relationship with someone when I found out that their parents held that much sway over them.

I would also not have anything to do with a reality TV family. AT ALL.

If a girl I dated just came up with this “no kissing” rule on her own, I would chalk it up to quirkiness and move on. I would wonder what she was afraid of, or what she was hiding.

 

[DarkLight]

Ultimately? No. You can be influenced by the standards of others but in the end, only you get to choose the kind of maxim you live by. And if you fail that, do you think it’s so right to blame others for it?

Ah but if you come to me with a lecture on controlling my temper, do you honestly believe I’ll listen when I know your own history?

A common Christian adage is to live by example. But if examples alone are ought to be given slack, what good is this?

Do you at least admit that it doesn’t make you a good example and you at least apologize to anyone who feels disappointed in you? Because this is what I mean by making a case. I can’t just be expected to follow rules when someone not only breaks them but worse, denies that they did.

Part of being a good example is acknowledging when you fall short. It’s like in parenting - sure it would be ideal if parents never lost their temper with their children, but few parents actually manage that. Part of the example a good parent sets for their children

Apparently I haven’t met these people. Just people who give off false chastity. And yes, these give me a reason to prove my point.

It’s often the hypocrite who feels the need to point out their virtue. If you met me, unless we had a discussion on the particular subject, you’d probably have no information about my views or my behavior at all. I don’t generally feel the need to tell people what I think on the matter, unless they are very close friends or they specifically ask for my (name removed by moderator)ut. Nor do I feel the need to go out of my way to explain my views. If a guy asked me to do something I’d probably just say no without providing much of any further explanation.

I’m sure some devout people do an honest work of maintaining chastity but I haven’t met them. Instead, I meet girls who tell me to respect their boundaries all the while they allow other guys to violate them.

The day I stop sticking my hand through their imaginary wall is the day they actually start building one and all the other guys are on the other side with me. (Funny part is that these same guys actually commend me for the scares.)

I’m not sure what you mean by this. Are you running into women who you know are having sex with other men, but say they uphold chastity in front of you?

Well I’m afraid my experience has only been the complete opposite. There were days when I hoped that I can finally change because I met someone who would see me differently.

But that day never happened. I never met the kind saint who would turn my life around and save me from the vipers. Instead, I met myself: a man who starved himself because he thought it was the best way to get others to feed him. A man who broke his back and his heart to build other people’s walls at the cost of the stones that made up his own little kingdom.

And what did he get after all that? Absolutely nothing.

That sounds rough. It took me, I’d say, maybe 6 years, for me to find people like that. I don’t entirely get what happened, but it sounds like you’ve had a rough time and some pretty terrible people in your life.

That’s why I don’t respect anyone who doesn’t do it for themselves first. Neither should I be expected to respect boundaries that they themselves don’t really believe in.

If people want rules. They should be the first to make them and follow them. I for one don’t make it my job anymore.

Boundaries are hard sometimes. And pushing past them often makes people feel bad, even if they “allow” them to be pushed. Would you push someone to, say, tell a lie if you thought they weren’t really honest enough? Or is it different here because you don’t agree with this one?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Part of being a good example is acknowledging when you fall short. It’s like in parenting - sure it would be ideal if parents never lost their temper with their children, but few parents actually manage that. Part of the example a good parent sets for their children

Well good to know that you acknowledge that. But remember, children are children. Adults are adults. Being a bad example to adults you’re trying to influence and impress with morals comes at the price of setting the bar of accountability just a wee bit higher.

I make it a point to a lot of women that I may be shameless but I’m not stupid.

Nor do I feel the need to go out of my way to explain my views. If a guy asked me to do something I’d probably just say no without providing much of any further explanation.

Man or woman, refusing to do something requires you to be reasonable with your objection. Even if a guy takes your word for it, know not everyone has good intentions for hiding their reasons much like you are. I’m not exactly telling you to go out of your way, but if I ever ask any person why, I take offense if they act like I’m not even standing in front of them. Tell me, “It’s personal.” or “It’s complicated.” That’s good enough (at least until I grow professionally tired from the lack of transparency.)

I’ve been on the worse end of enough lies already.

I’m not sure what you mean by this. Are you running into women who you know are having sex with other men, but say they uphold chastity in front of you?

Not so much that. Just boundaries in general. I see no point in a girl cringing from a slight poke in the arm but she lets other guys grope and tickle her despite her so-called ‘boundaries.’

I don’t entirely get what happened, but it sounds like you’ve had a rough time and some pretty terrible people in your life.

I’ve had them for more of a decade.

Would you push someone to, say, tell a lie if you thought they weren’t really honest enough? Or is it different here because you don’t agree with this one?

If I know someone to be a pathological liar but denies it to everyone, what do you expect me to think?

 

[ToeInTheWater]

OP pokes her head in

Okay, I am begging everyone PLEASE, if you want to discuss Lost Wanderer’s issues with women, PLEASE start another topic, as this one has gone completely off the rails.

sigh

 

[DarkLight]

Not so much that. Just boundaries in general. I see no point in a girl cringing from a slight poke in the arm but she lets other guys grope and tickle her despite her so-called ‘boundaries.’

See this seems to be an entirely different issue. I’m comfortable having certain kinds of physical contact with some men but not others, simply because I have different sort of relationships with them. That has nothing at all to do with chastity and everything with how well I know an individual guy and what I know about him. So for example I hug my friends, male and female, but I don’t give hugs to people, especially men, who I don’t consider friends. I also have some people who I have harsher boundaries with because they’re known for trying to push across - if someone repeatedly tries to push on me to get me to do more than I’m comfortable with given my relationship, or if I see them doing that with other people, I’m going to respond by setting the line farther out with that individual.

It’s a way of policing boundaries - I allow more to those who I trust to respect where I’ve set the line. If I think someone’s liable to try to push the line all the time, I set it farther out because I don’t trust them closer. If someone’s show that they’re trustworthy they get a chance to come closer because I think they won’t try to take advantage or try to get more than they’re offered.

Man or woman, refusing to do something requires you to be reasonable with your objection. Even if a guy takes your word for it, know not everyone has good intentions for hiding their reasons much like you are. I’m not exactly telling you to go out of your way, but if I ever ask any person why, I take offense if they act like I’m not even standing in front of them. Tell me, “It’s personal.” or “It’s complicated.” That’s good enough (at least until I grow professionally tired from the lack of transparency.)

On matters of sexuality I tend to consider my reasons my business. Personally I’ve had too many men who think being provided with a reason means giving them a chance to try to argue or challenge my reasons. Or as I’ve had happen, try to scrutinize my behavior to see if I really mean that (which unfortunately with a lot of guys means they tend to mix assumptions in with actuality).

I’m going to say that, whatever your intentions, the way you’re describing your behavior would give off a creepy vibe to a lot of women. There’s a very good chance that’s why you’re seeing some of what you are - if you come across as someone who’s likely to try to push for more or try to take advantage of a situation, more women are going to try to keep you at arms length even if they let other men go farther. Because it’s no fun dealing with a guy who’s going to pester and push and try to make sure you really mean what you say, so it’s easier to just keep him farther away entirely.

 

[DarkLight]

OP pokes her head in

Okay, I am begging everyone PLEASE, if you want to discuss Lost Wanderer’s issues with women, PLEASE start another topic, as this one has gone completely off the rails.

sigh

Ack! Sorry!

 

[Xantippe]

OP pokes her head in

Okay, I am begging everyone PLEASE, if you want to discuss Lost Wanderer’s issues with women, PLEASE start another topic, as this one has gone completely off the rails.

sigh

Yes, Lost Wanderer, if you would like to discuss your issues with women, how about a nice fresh clearly-labeled thread?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

OP pokes her head in

Okay, I am begging everyone PLEASE, if you want to discuss Lost Wanderer’s issues with women, PLEASE start another topic, as this one has gone completely off the rails.

sigh

You start a thread about women setting boundaries and then cry it’s off topic to discuss… boundaries? :ehh:

 

[ToeInTheWater]

You start a thread about women setting boundaries and then cry it’s off topic to discuss… boundaries? :ehh:

My topic was NOT about “women setting boundaries”. If you actually, you know, read the title, you’ll see that I was asking about BOTH girlfriends and boyfriends who wanted to save kissing for marriage. And as it turns out, it seems female posters are just as likely as male posters to find a no-kissing stance to be unacceptable.

I did not mean for this topic to become yet another battle of the sexes. So again, PLEASE take that somewhere else. If not I may just have to get the mods involved.

 

[Kelfa28]

Hubby and I have taken the love language test. My love language is physical touch. While I completely agree that intercourse before marriage is wrong, I could not imagine myself growing a relationship destined for marriage without developing a physical intimacy with someone. I know that I express love for my husband through touch and that includes everything from a hug all the way up to intercourse. He knows that physical touch lets me know he loves me.
I would have an awful time in any serious relationship that discerns marriage if I couldn’t develop some form of physical bond. For me, intimacy, trust and love cannot be formed without some kind of physical touch.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

So for example I hug my friends, male and female, but I don’t give hugs to people, especially men, who I don’t consider friends.

The idea of policing boundaries can be reasonable. But the fact is, people like the Duggars should serve as proof that they are only reasonable to a point. A person with a really biased and bizarre way of policing these boundaries (e.g. side-hugs only, kissing before marriage, chaperoning etc) isn’t going to find herself any allies when there’s clearly something wrong with the way she chooses who to let in and out.

I’m going to say that, whatever your intentions, the way you’re describing your behavior would give off a creepy vibe to a lot of women.

I’ve gone way the past point to care if the cost of not coming off as creepy means I have to respect boundaries that are non-existent. Neither is the label worth losing sleep over if the woman is one to talk about being ‘normal.’ Nobody thinks I’m creepy save for online CAFers.

My experience with manipulative boundary police is just as valid as your experience with lecherous men. You say I give a creepy vibe? I’m afraid it’s only fair to say that the reactionary defenses to boundaries on this thread remind far too closely of Christian alarmists in general.

Because it’s no fun dealing with a guy who’s going to pester and push and try to make sure you really mean what you say, so it’s easier to just keep him farther away entirely.

In my circles, there are few to no secrets. We have a very low tolerance for liars and manipulators but more often than not, the brand we deal with all the time are hypocrites and those who create fake boundaries.

Yes, Lost Wanderer, if you would like to discuss your issues with women, how about a nice fresh clearly-labeled thread?

You mean like the last one where people had no clue about what I was saying and just spent the next five pages explaining the thread title alone?

No thanks. I see no reason to repeat a thread with the same premise on boundaries and don’t to waste my time seeing it merged without me even knowing.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

My topic was NOT about “women setting boundaries”.

Uh, yes it is.

If you actually, you know, read the title, you’ll see that I was asking about BOTH girlfriends and boyfriends who wanted to save kissing for marriage.

Care to explain how ‘saving kissing for marriage’ is not a boundary? :ehh:

 

[Xantippe]

My topic was NOT about “women setting boundaries”. If you actually, you know, read the title, you’ll see that I was asking about BOTH girlfriends and boyfriends who wanted to save kissing for marriage. And as it turns out, it seems female posters are just as likely as male posters to find a no-kissing stance to be unacceptable.

Exactly–it was stated as a gender-neutral question.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Exactly–it was stated as a gender-neutral question.

As is the topic of setting boundaries.

 

[masondoggy]

I would end a relationship with someone when I found out that their parents held that much sway over them.

I would also not have anything to do with a reality TV family. AT ALL.

If a girl I dated just came up with this “no kissing” rule on her own, I would chalk it up to quirkiness and move on. I would wonder what she was afraid of, or what she was hiding.

Oh yea, there’s no way I would ever date somebody whose parents had that much control over them.

DH’s parents had quite a bit of power over him when we got married…not in the way the Duggars do and not nearly as bad. It was complicated but it did nearly send us to divorce court. Thankfully, when it got to THAT point, DH got a clue and severely limited contact with both of them.

That kind of parental interference is devastating to a marriage.

Of course, not all of these types of situations would necessarily involve parental influence.

 

[Xantippe]

T

You mean like the last one where people had no clue about what I was saying and just spent the next five pages explaining the thread title alone?

If people have a lot of trouble understanding what you are trying to say, the consistent variable in that is you.

Perhaps you can work on expressing yourself more clearly?

I personally find that it can be rather a trial figuring out what you mean–you often create a sort of verbal ouroboros.

 

[DarkLight]

I think it’s important to be clear that there’s a difference between no kissing (or other physical affection) before marriage, and no kissing/whatever early on. I wouldn’t want to hit that level until we’d been seeing each other for a couple of months at least.

 

[Xantippe]

Lost Wanderer,

Here’s a proposed title for your thread (it will need to be shortened):

“It’s unfair and hypocritical when women aren’t exactly as physical with me as they are with other men.”

You’ll notice that my version is nice and clear.

I await your new thread.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

If people have a lot of trouble understanding what you are trying to say, the consistent variable in that is you.

Perhaps you can work on expressing yourself more clearly?

I personally find that it can be rather a trial figuring out what you mean–you often create a sort of verbal ouroboros.

Maybe THIS is what’s derailing the thread. Perhaps you should follow your own example and stop acting like this thread isn’t about setting boundaries in couples (heck even human relationships in general).

A lot better than making a personal jab. I thought that other Duggar thread had plenty of that without me!