"If you're not pro life you shouldn't be here."

  • Thread starter Thread starter adv1sor
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Which is petty much par for the course for these types of threads. you always see much harsher condmeation of those who outspokely attack aborton and those who support it than you do against those who support abortion. I think the clergy has treated this issue with kid gloves for way to long ,
STRAW MAN ARGUMENT.

No body has denied the evil of abortion. Have you sold all you own and given it to the poor?

NO PRIEST HAS THE RIGHT TO STAND UP DURING MASS AND TELL PEOPLE TO GO AND BUY AND SILLY LICENSE PLATE. REGARDLESS OF HOW MISGUIDED HE IS.

Abortion is evil. We are expected to do what we can. Sell your possessions and give me the money I need to get a VANITY PLATE.

Remember, the way to heaven for the rich man was to sell everything he owned and follow Jesus. Have you done that? I know I haven’t. Until then, perhaps it’s time to get off the soapbox.
 
**… not really if a priest gives you that for penance i think it is binding and you have to do it, i know for confession a priest can give you the penance of giving alms to the poor, i fail to see how this is any different (other than the obvious extremity). take this for example:

I dont know if Birnie Madoff is Catholic or not, but supposing he was never caught, but he went to confession and said ‘bless me Father for i have sinned i stole $500,000,000 from many people.’ i think the priest would be justified in saying ‘well my son for your penance you need to sell your worldly possessions and live as a poor man and give every cent thats not meant for food to the poor.**’
Well, you seemed to ignore post 24. Here it is again.

**Okay shin, I’m going to find a priest that tells you to sell your car, home, and all personal property except for one pair of clothing. Live as a pauper but continue to work (I’m assuming you do) but give every last cent to the poor. Your only meals will be from a soup kitchen.

What a silly idea you’ve set forth. **

Remember, when Jesus told the rich man to sell all he owns and give it to the poor, He was doing it as a penance. So, my question is, are you following His direction? You seem to think others should.
 
I don’t know that anybody is saying the priest shouldn’t have preached against abortion. Maybe someone did and I missed it?
No, you didn’t. The argument is about a priest telling people to buy a vanity plate. I’m waiting for two of the posters to answer whether or not they’ve sold all they own and given it to the poor or anti abortion groups. Kinda silly, isn’t it?
 
***… not really if a priest gives you that for penance i think it is binding and you have to do it, i know for confession a priest can give you the penance of giving alms to the poor, i fail to see how this is any different (other than the obvious extremity). take this for example:

I dont know if Birnie Madoff is Catholic or not, but supposing he was never caught, but he went to confession and said ‘bless me Father for i have sinned i stole $500,000,000 from many people.’ i think the priest would be justified in saying ‘well my son for your penance you need to sell your worldly possessions and live as a poor man and give every cent thats not meant for food to the poor.’***

That’s called reparation. That is within a priests authority. IT IS NOT WITHIN A PRIEST’S AUTHORITY TO TELL YOU TO BUY A LICENSE PLATE DURING THE HOMILY. THEN TO TREAT A PARISHIONER RUDELY.

We must be reading a different Gospel.

I’ve seen so many straw men in this discussion in the last hour that it’s silly.

Have you sold all your possessions as Jesus told you?
 
If I see something on someone’s car that I don’t agree with, it doesn’t make me want to change my own position on the issue. Rather, it just provides a slight distraction from what I’m really trying to do – drive!
 
STRAW MAN ARGUMENT.

No body has denied the evil of abortion. Have you sold all you own and given it to the poor?

x.
No straw man at all. You must have missed the posts about not condeming people who support abortion lest we alienate them or the ones advancing the old “hearts and minds” argument. I already said he was wrong to ask people to buy a license plate but as others hae pointed out he is getting condemned a lot harsher than those who actually support abortion.
 
The funny part of that is there were probably dozens there that were pro-choice and felt that they were just as much, good, deeply Catholic as the priest and were determined they weren’t going to leave no matter what the priest had to say.
Unfortunetly those pro-choicers are in the awkward position of certainly being in the position of living in sin, mortal sin probably. And I this while not agreeing with the manner in which this Priest choose to raise the pro-life message.

Regardless, being a good Catholic isn’t about “how you feel”. It’s about your obediance to Christ and the gospel message. Abortion is utterly incompatible with the gosple message.
 
These are the only “hearts and minds” quotes I could find. One of them said the priest could possibly be more tactful, the other said that changing “pro-choice” to “pro-murder” isn’t going to help change minds.
Certainly people who are not pro-life should not be recieving communion.

However, people who are confused, doubting or interested in deepening their understanding of Catholocism may be worried or upset by such remarks. I think Pro-Life sentiments can be expressed more accurately and more tactfully - he may be turning people away from the church.
I would politely suggest that you aren’t going to change anyone’s mind by telling them they are pro-murder if they classify themselves as pro-choice. It may make you feel better about yourself and you may believe it accurately reflects their position, but it would immediately put them on the defensive and mitigate anything further you had to say. What is your goal? To feel better about yourself, or to change hearts and minds?
 
No straw man at all. You must have missed the posts about not condeming people who support abortion lest we alienate them or the ones advancing the old “hearts and minds” argument. I already said he was wrong to ask people to buy a license plate but as others hae pointed out he is getting condemned a lot harsher than those who actually support abortion.
The only reason we go to Mass is to worship God and receive the Eucharist. Now, if this priest would have said something to the affect that the license plate was a good way to show your position about the awful sin of abortion, that’s one thing. And I wouldn’t argue with that. But he told people categorically to buy one. Wasted money!

The money could go for helping women in a position of being pregnant and nowhere to turn, or many other pro-life organizations. Instead he was telling the people to pay extra money for a license plate. Did you ever consider that the money might be going to support abortion? Do you tell your state how to spend the taxes you pay? If you are able to then you are a very lucky person. 99.9999% of us can’t.

So, go and buy the plate and see where the added revenue goes.
 
The funny part of that is there were probably dozens there that were pro-choice and felt that they were just as much, good, deeply Catholic as the priest and were determined they weren’t going to leave no matter what the priest had to say.
I’ve got to honest. I don’t see how you can be pro-choice and be a Christian. Where does the choice end?

I work with a Christian (non-Catholic) who says the fetus gains more rights as it grows in the womb.

Hitler said that people are only worth what they can contribute to his society. Their value and rights increase as they are able to produce and contribute. Sounds like a pro-choice Christian to me.
 
***… not really if a priest gives you that for penance i think it is binding and you have to do it, i know for confession a priest can give you the penance of giving alms to the poor, i fail to see how this is any different (other than the obvious extremity). take this for example:

I dont know if Birnie Madoff is Catholic or not, but supposing he was never caught, but he went to confession and said ‘bless me Father for i have sinned i stole $500,000,000 from many people.’ i think the priest would be justified in saying ‘well my son for your penance you need to sell your worldly possessions and live as a poor man and give every cent thats not meant for food to the poor.’***

That’s called reparation. That is within a priests authority. IT IS NOT WITHIN A PRIEST’S AUTHORITY TO TELL YOU TO BUY A LICENSE PLATE DURING THE HOMILY. THEN TO TREAT A PARISHIONER RUDELY.

We must be reading a different Gospel.

I’ve seen so many straw men in this discussion in the last hour that it’s silly.

Have you sold all your possessions as Jesus told you?
have you, most probably not. nor have I. i have not claimed as others may have that the priest can tell you to sell a vanity plate in a homily but if you were an abortion ‘doctor’ that went to confession the yes in that case he most certianly could, and please can you tell me how that was a straw man argument. if you could say my post had any logical fallacies then this would be closer to a red-herring, but it is not that because i was providing a theoretical answer to your question, one we can all agree that could be a possibility of happining (or more accurately happening before he got caught)
 
It is well within the priest’s authority to tell you to buy something.

I told you to provide proof of the contrary, and I provided proof in documentation instead. You didn’t.

Here’s a little story:

Many years ago, during the time of the Protestant Reformation, there was a great saint living in Italy called Philip Neri. He was a wonderful priest and he helped many people to be good Catholics, during that time, when so many Catholics were losing their faith.

One day a woman came to see St. Philip Neri. She was known for her wicked tongue and she used to gossip about other people, telling all the bad things they had done. This indeed was very wrong because when she talked to someone about the faults and sins of another person, that person would many times be looked upon as a bad person, by other people!

St. Philip gave the woman some money and asked her to go to the market and **buy **a chicken that had just been killed and to pluck all the feathers off, as she walked home with the chicken.

The woman was proud of the fact that St. Philip had asked her to do something for him. She went to the market, bought the chicken, and on her way home she picked off every single feather and made that chicken as clean as a whistle! Then with a smile she handed the chicken to St. Philip Neri.

He thanked the woman and then said, “Now go back once more, and gather up all the feathers of the chicken you just plucked!”

The poor woman didn’t smile anymore. She said, “But that is impossible, Father! The wind has scattered the feathers in every direction!”

Then St. Philip scolded, “Let this be a lesson to you, for it is exactly the same with your wicked words. Just as the chicken feathers have been scattered by the wind in every direction, so have your wicked words been scattered in every direction by other people, repeating your stories!”

'If anyone has blasphemed against God or His Blessed mother or any other saint, he must appear at the door of his parish church seven Sundays in a row without cloak or shoes, wearing a leather strap or cord around his neck. For these seven weeks he should eat only bread and water for six days a week (Sunday excluded) and must not enter a Church. On Sundays he must feed the poor (at least one beggar), but if unable to do so he should be given an appropriate substitute penance. If he refuses this penance he is forbidden to enter a church and upon his death should be denied a Christian burial."

“If the penitent who confesses perjury appears wealthy he should be referred to a magistrate who should fine him 40 sous or at the very least 20 sous.”

“Penitents who preach rebellion against their bishop, their pastor, or their fathers should be sentenced to a monastery for the rest of their days.”

St. Charles Borromeo, Bishop, “Instructions to Confessors” 1572 A.D.

There are standard penances that existed from the beginning of Christian history, and only recently during these weak times have fallen out of use. They’re found in ‘penitentials’ and are rather consistent from the very beginning.

Just because priests don’t exercise their power and you can go parish shopping, doesn’t mean that power doesn’t still exist.

And that God isn’t behind the scenes taking notes.
 
have you, most probably not. nor have I. i have not claimed as others may have that the priest can tell you to sell a vanity plate in a homily but if you were an abortion ‘doctor’ that went to confession the yes in that case he most certianly could, and please can you tell me how that was a straw man argument. if you could say my post had any logical fallacies then this would be closer to a red-herring, but it is not that because i was providing a theoretical answer to your question, one we can all agree that could be a possibility of happining (or more accurately happening before he got caught)
I think we agree. This whole discussion has strayed from a priest being rude to a parishioner and also his telling people to buy a vanity plate. He had no right to do that. He had no right to be rude to someone questioning him.

He did have a right and obligation to preach on the evil of abortion. He could make suggestions of what we could do to fight it. But to tell people to buy a particular product is far outside his authority. As a matter of fact there may have been people there that he sinned against. People barely able to put food on their table. People that struggle but still do what they can to follow church teaching. People that struggle financially but still donate to causes such as pro-life. I’ll be frank, the priest did a horrendous job.
 
If I see something on someone’s car that I don’t agree with, it doesn’t make me want to change my own position on the issue. Rather, it just provides a slight distraction from what I’m really trying to do – drive!
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

and my compliments on the name… ahem or lack thereof.
 
I think we agree. This whole discussion has strayed from a priest being rude to a parishioner and also his telling people to buy a vanity plate. He had no right to do that. He had no right to be rude to someone questioning him.

He did have a right and obligation to preach on the evil of abortion. He could make suggestions of what we could do to fight it. But to tell people to buy a particular product is far outside his authority. As a matter of fact there may have been people there that he sinned against. People barely able to put food on their table. People that struggle but still do what they can to follow church teaching. People that struggle financially but still donate to causes such as pro-life. I’ll be frank, the priest did a horrendous job.
and then he could suggest you should buy a pro-life vanity plate could he not? not saying he can force you to under the penalty of omission. and no offense to the OP but all we have is his word (not saying that OPs word is untrustworthy) he may have heard the priest wrong and misunderstood his statement, and about after Mass, maybe the good father is just not ‘a people person’ does not account for rudeness i know but priests are humans as well, they can sin just as bad as we do cant they? maybe the father just does not really like talking to people all that much or maybe he woke up on the wrong side of the bed either way it does not matter he should not have turned away, but he did, so what it is not the end of the world…
 
It is well within the priest’s authority to tell you to buy something.

I told you to provide proof of the contrary, and I provided proof in documentation instead. You didn’t.

Here’s a little story:

Many years ago, during the time of the Protestant Reformation, there was a great saint living in Italy called Philip Neri. He was a wonderful priest and he helped many people to be good Catholics, during that time, when so many Catholics were losing their faith.

One day a woman came to see St. Philip Neri. She was known for her wicked tongue and she used to gossip about other people, telling all the bad things they had done. This indeed was very wrong because when she talked to someone about the faults and sins of another person, that person would many times be looked upon as a bad person, by other people!

St. Philip gave the woman some money and asked her to go to the market and **buy **a chicken that had just been killed and to pluck all the feathers off, as she walked home with the chicken.

The woman was proud of the fact that St. Philip had asked her to do something for him. She went to the market, bought the chicken, and on her way home she picked off every single feather and made that chicken as clean as a whistle! Then with a smile she handed the chicken to St. Philip Neri.

He thanked the woman and then said, “Now go back once more, and gather up all the feathers of the chicken you just plucked!”

The poor woman didn’t smile anymore. She said, “But that is impossible, Father! The wind has scattered the feathers in every direction!”

Then St. Philip scolded, “Let this be a lesson to you, for it is exactly the same with your wicked words. Just as the chicken feathers have been scattered by the wind in every direction, so have your wicked words been scattered in every direction by other people, repeating your stories!”

'If anyone has blasphemed against God or His Blessed mother or any other saint, he must appear at the door of his parish church seven Sundays in a row without cloak or shoes, wearing a leather strap or cord around his neck. For these seven weeks he should eat only bread and water for six days a week (Sunday excluded) and must not enter a Church. On Sundays he must feed the poor (at least one beggar), but if unable to do so he should be given an appropriate substitute penance. If he refuses this penance he is forbidden to enter a church and upon his death should be denied a Christian burial."

“If the penitent who confesses perjury appears wealthy he should be referred to a magistrate who should fine him 40 sous or at the very least 20 sous.”

“Penitents who preach rebellion against their bishop, their pastor, or their fathers should be sentenced to a monastery for the rest of their days.”

St. Charles Borromeo, Bishop, “Instructions to Confessors” 1572 A.D.

There are standard penances that existed from the beginning of Christian history, and only recently during these weak times have fallen out of use. They’re found in ‘penitentials’ and are rather consistent from the very beginning.

Just because priests don’t exercise their power and you can go parish shopping, doesn’t mean that power doesn’t still exist.

And that God isn’t behind the scenes taking notes.
the counter argument will be
… But he gave her the money to buy it
as to the second part of your comment that is intense i have only been to two confessions where the priest has told me to do something other than say Hail Mary’s and Our Father’s. not to say that the priests did not give VERY good advise but they just gave (in my opinion) weak penances. i believe that i am called to the priesthood, and i know that once i am a priest (if God is willing of course) all of the people are going to be like "stay away from confession when Father Eddie is in there he gives harsh penances. i am not going to make the harsh on purpose but they are not going to be like oh well you smoked pot for 10 years oh ok say a couple hail Marys and our fathers
 
Note the fine a little further down…

So if your priest gives you the money for the plates, then you’ll do it? Feeling a little chintzy lately by any chance?

How do you afford to buy gas? 🙂

That would be the counter counter argument, if you can call the first a counter argument.
 
IMO, he doesn’t know the finances of the individuals in the congregation. Vanity plates are expensive. That wasn’t well-thought out on his part; I know he was passionate about his subject, but not a good idea. And, one has to engage people in dialog, not turn your back on them if they don’t agree with you 100%
 
Note the fine a little further down…

So if your priest gives you the money for the plates, then you’ll do it? Feeling a little chintzy lately by any chance?

How do you afford to buy gas? 🙂

That would be the counter counter argument, if you can call the first a counter argument.
im not saying i would counter with that, i agree with you, but i looked at the comment and i know thats what people are going to say.

btw i edited my last comment if you wanted to take a look
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top